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Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti (Read 11808 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #30 - Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm
 
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #31 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:00am
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:42pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:36pm:
Auggie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 7:38pm:
Ok, so 85% of Australians believe in multiculturalism, and believe that migrants shouldn't integrate?


As you will no doubt see, that is exactly what some anti-Multiculturalists believe.   Multiculturalism is about people integrating into Australian society at their own rate, not the rate imposed by the anti-Multiculturalists.   There is no evidence that Multiculturalism leads to "ghettoisation" or anything like that.   You have the initial generations banding together in a foreign land for mutual benefit, while succeeding generations seek greater aspirational goals and move out amongst the wider community surrounding them.    The anti-Multiculturalists dislike Multiculturalism because they want everybody to wear the same black uniform that they do and march to the same drum beat that they do.   They hate individuality and difference.     Roll Eyes


People who live in Western Sydney would disagree with you.

The suburbs in Western Sydney were overwhelmingly against SSM. The majority of those suburbs are composed of migrants. Anthony Green even conceded that it was 'cultural' differences that led them to say no.

Ghettoisation is already happening in Western Sydney, or so I'm told. Ghettoisation has already happened in Europe.

Second, there seems to be this expectation that we become a multicultural society. Let me ask you this question: should Japan be a multicultural society?


The term "ghetto" has negative connotations about it.   Are you aware of that?  It was once used to describe where the Jews were confined in European cities.

In Australia, we have suburbs where the rents/costs are cheaper than others.  They are where migrants, upon arrival tend to congregate.   They stay because they have friends/family from similar backgrounds to their own.  As their children mature, their aspirations change.   The children become better educated than their parents.  Australian is now their home.  They are no longer as connected to their past homelands, they have new aspirations, they want better homes, they want their own homes.  So they move out, into better suburbes/towns.  They set up businesses, have families.  In two or three generations, they are now fully Australian.  It worked for the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, the Italians, the Greeks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the French, the Germans and so on.  Why the assumption that Muslims are somehow different merely because they dress differently or worship another god, smacks of Islamophobia, rather than reality.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #32 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 5:49am
 
They don't form enclaves due to cheaper rents Auggie.
The don't all integrate or assimilate Auggie.  Under Multiculi there is no call for it.
Perhaps they are racist or xenophobic eh?  What do you think?
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #33 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 8:50am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:00am:
The term "ghetto" has negative connotations about it.   Are you aware of that?  It was once used to describe where the Jews were confined in European cities.


Yes, I am. Ghetto is also used in everyday language to refer to an isolated community.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:00am:
Why the assumption that Muslims are somehow different merely because they dress differently or worship another god, smacks of Islamophobia, rather than reality.   


Because the second and third generation of migrants from Muslim-majority countries who identity themselves as Muslims, are not integrating. Look at Europe: second and third generation Muslims are not integrating. Did you know that 60% of British Muslims believe that homosexuals should be imprisoned (not 'not ok with gay marriage') but that they should be thrown jail. And most of these Muslims were born in Britain. Is that a sign of integration?

The point is not that Islam is different, it is that it is different IN THIS TIME. If we were in the 1930s then I would be saying that Nazism and Fascism were the greatest threats to Western Civilization; but we obliterated them. After WW2 it was Communism; and now it is Islamism.
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #34 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:49am
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 8:50am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:00am:
The term "ghetto" has negative connotations about it.   Are you aware of that?  It was once used to describe where the Jews were confined in European cities.


Yes, I am. Ghetto is also used in everyday language to refer to an isolated community.


It still has deliberately negative connotations, Augie.   South-West Sydney is not isolated.  It is part of Greater Sydney.   Were the Italian/Greek/Serbia/Croat/Bosnian communities considered "ghettos" in the same way?  No.   I see no evidence that the Muslims communities should be, except in the imaginations of the Islamophobes.    I have served with/studied with/worked with/lived besides Muslims for a great part of my life.  They have all been socialable, quite nice people.   I have treated them as normal Australians, something the Islamophobes find impossible to do.   The Islamophobes are the problem, not the Muslims.

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Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:00am:
Why the assumption that Muslims are somehow different merely because they dress differently or worship another god, smacks of Islamophobia, rather than reality.   


Because the second and third generation of migrants from Muslim-majority countries who identity themselves as Muslims, are not integrating. Look at Europe: second and third generation Muslims are not integrating. Did you know that 60% of British Muslims believe that homosexuals should be imprisoned (not 'not ok with gay marriage') but that they should be thrown jail. And most of these Muslims were born in Britain. Is that a sign of integration?


We aren't discussing Europe.  I will though, point out that the European experience is very different to the Australian experience.   Europeans have been hostile to "foreign" influences for hundreds if not a thousand or more years.   Their concept of "Multiculturalism" is very different to the Australian one.   Their sources for their migrants has been very different.   They have concentrated mainly on the lower socio-economic groups whereas Australia has done the reverse.   So,  the experiences have been very different.

Being born amongst a hostile society does not guarantee you will love that society.   Britain and Europe imported Muslims as factory fodder.   Australia imported mainly well-educated, professional Muslims and some refugees.   Australian Muslims have a very different attitude towards Australia than Muslims in Europe or the UK have to their adopted countries.

I  wonder what proportion of overseas born immigrants who are not Muslims voted "Yes" for the same-sex marriage survey?   People like to point to the results from SW Sydney, claiming that it shows Muslims are all out of step with Australian society.   What they forget is that Muslims do not hold the majority in any of the electorates in SW Sydney.  Nor do they all universally abhor Gays.   Therefore, other immigrant communities had also to vote "No" for a majority to be reached.   The Islamophobes ignore that in their diatribes against Muslims.   There are more than enough conservative Christians in Australian society who also hate Gays.   Fortunately, a majority of Australians don't.

Because it suits their purposes, the Islamophobes like to paint all Muslims as "Borge-like" in their attitudes and views.  They are "all Terrorists" or "Terrorist supporters" because it fits the mindsets of the Islamophobes, despite the majority of Australian Muslims having fled conflicts and in particular Terrorists.  They all hate Gays because they throw Gays off buildings in Iran.   However, Iran is only a minority of Muslims and only the Sh'ia sect.   Many Muslims tolerate Gays, just as the overwhelming majority of Australian Christians do.   So be very careful about ascribing to an entire Religious community the views of the  most conservative of that community, Augie.

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The point is not that Islam is different, it is that it is different IN THIS TIME. If we were in the 1930s then I would be saying that Nazism and Fascism were the greatest threats to Western Civilization; but we obliterated them. After WW2 it was Communism; and now it is Islamism.


As I have pointed out, so it appears is conservative Christians.  So are conservative non-Christians.   So are conservative Hindus/Buddhists/etc. None fit the criteria of the "normal Australians".    I would say the greatest threat is Conservative Religion of all types.   It is interesting the similarities which Conservatives in different religions hold.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #35 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:05pm
 
First of all, the Europeans who migrated here after the war, many of the second generation integrated (not completely but still integrated). Many of them moved away from the ghettos and established themselves away from their parents’ suburbs.

You mention your Muslims friends. I remember you once spoke about your Muslim neighbour; I asked you what he believes: for eg does he support separation of church and state; freedom of speech, etc. Is he/are they Muslim first then Australian? You didn’t answer these questions. Is it because maybe they support sharia law, which oppressed women and minorities, and simply pay lip service to Australia?

Regarding Europe, the issue is simply number. They have more Muslims than we do. That’s it. Other minorities don’t have an issue with integration. Vietnamese in France for eg integrate very well as do other Asian migrants. The failure of Muslims to integrate in Europe has nothing to do with Europe and all to do with the migrants themselves.

Finally, I think we’re we get caught up is talking about the majority. “Oh the majority of Muslims don’t support offensive jihad etc.” Yes, that’s true; but neither did the majority of Germans support Nazism.

All it takes is for an organised, militant minority to cause problems. There needs to be enough support for those groups that they can be a force. It doesn’t require 51% of the population to support them; it may require only 10% to support them; but that’s 10% too many. Polls taken worldwide show that at least 20% of the Muslim population hold pernicious beliefs; that’s 200 million people!



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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #36 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:05pm:
First of all, the Europeans who migrated here after the war, many of the second generation integrated (not completely but still integrated). Many of them moved away from the ghettos and established themselves away from their parents’ suburbs.


You have evidence this is not happening with Muslims, Augie?  Real, verifiable evidence or just a "feeling"?

I have seen no evidence to support the claims of the Islamophobes that Muslims cannot or will not integrate/assimilate to Australian society.   We have had Muslims in Australia for nearly 200 years.   I served in the Australian Army with an officer who's great grandfather was an Afghan cameller in Australia.   He was fully integrated.   I have served with a Turkish-Cypriot who now considers himself "more Australian than Turkish".  He umpires today SANFL football games.   I have worked with Muslims for decades.   All have, as far as I can tell, "integrated" into Australian society.    Why is only in Sydney we have Muslim "ghettos"?   Why is only in Sydney we have Muslim Lebanese "gangs"?   You'd claim it was because of Islam, I suspect.  I would suggest it was because of Sydney.

Quote:
You mention your Muslims friends. I remember you once spoke about your Muslim neighbour; I asked you what he believes: for eg does he support separation of church and state; freedom of speech, etc. Is he/are they Muslim first then Australian? You didn’t answer these questions. Is it because maybe they support sharia law, which oppressed women and minorities, and simply pay lip service to Australia?


I didn't answer because there was no point.  My Muslim neighbours are "integrated" into Australian society.  Fully.   I also believe such questions are distasteful.   He has no desire to chop any one's head off.  He hates Terrorists with a passion.   He believes in moderation.   He is a professional in the Health department.   He doesn't deserve any questioning of his loyalties, any more than any other Australian does. 

Quote:
Regarding Europe, the issue is simply number. They have more Muslims than we do. That’s it. Other minorities don’t have an issue with integration. Vietnamese in France for eg integrate very well as do other Asian migrants. The failure of Muslims to integrate in Europe has nothing to do with Europe and all to do with the migrants themselves.


Actually, in terms of percentage, their numbers are not that much greater than ours, Augie.  Australia today has less than 4% Muslims.  France, is approximately 7%, Germany, about 5%,  the UK about 4%.    Roll Eyes

Quote:
Finally, I think we’re we get caught up is talking about the majority. “Oh the majority of Muslims don’t support offensive jihad etc.” Yes, that’s true; but neither did the majority of Germans support Nazism.


I would suggest buggerall Germans support Naziism, as it was.   I would suggest buggerall Muslims support Terrorism.

Quote:
All it takes is for an organised, militant minority to cause problems. There needs to be enough support for those groups that they can be a force. It doesn’t require 51% of the population to support them; it may require only 10% to support them; but that’s 10% too many. Polls taken worldwide show that at least 20% of the Muslim population hold pernicious beliefs; that’s 200 million people!


The thing is, you and the Islamophobes appear to act as if it is 90% which support Terrorism.  This is demonstrably untrue.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #37 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:59pm
 
oh dear bwian all that twaddle about Conservative Christians...  yet isn't it true that Muslims are the most Conservative.

I mean the penalty for apostasy is death. And the Koran is never to be altered in any way whatsoever. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #38 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:34pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
You have evidence this is not happening with Muslims, Augie?  Real, verifiable evidence or just a "feeling"?


You only need to look at Europe. I don't buy the argument that Europeans have been hostile to migrants. Asian migrants in Europe seemed to have done quite well. France is an open and tolerant society, and has been for decades.

The issue is the number of Muslim migrants in those countries, up to 7.5% of the population in the case of France.

The reason why Muslims are well integrated in the United States and Australia is because there's less of them.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
I have seen no evidence to support the claims of the Islamophobes that Muslims cannot or will not integrate/assimilate to Australian society.   We have had Muslims in Australia for nearly 200 years.   I served in the Australian Army with an officer who's great grandfather was an Afghan cameller in Australia.   He was fully integrated.   I have served with a Turkish-Cypriot who now considers himself "more Australian than Turkish".  He umpires today SANFL football games.   I have worked with Muslims for decades.   All have, as far as I can tell, "integrated" into Australian society.    Why is only in Sydney we have Muslim "ghettos"?   Why is only in Sydney we have Muslim Lebanese "gangs"?   You'd claim it was because of Islam, I suspect.  I would suggest it was because of Sydney.


Which is exactly my point. It's about numbers. SA has less Muslims and so they integrate better into society compared with Sydney where there are more numbers. When you have smaller numbers they are easier to integrate into society.

Second, as a side note, Turkey has been a secular state and cannot be used as valid example. Also, your Afghan friend has been here for generations. In both cases, they're not really comparable examples.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
I didn't answer because there was no point.  My Muslim neighbours are "integrated" into Australian society.  Fully.   I also believe such questions are distasteful.   He has no desire to chop any one's head off.  He hates Terrorists with a passion.   He believes in moderation.   He is a professional in the Health department.   He doesn't deserve any questioning of his loyalties, any more than any other Australian does. 


So, the answer is no. So, how do you know that he's integrated? Integration is about your values. If your neighbour believes in Sharia law, then he hasn't integrated. Sure, he hates terrorists, so do we all. Maybe he does support Sharia law???

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
Actually, in terms of percentage, their numbers are not that much greater than ours, Augie.  Australia today has less than 4% Muslims.  France, is approximately 7%, Germany, about 5%,  the UK about 4%.   


Exactly, and we're starting to witness the affects of it. 7% of 50 million is a significant number, as is 4% of 50 million. America has 0.9% Muslims. Wonder why they better integrate into American society?

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
I would suggest buggerall Germans support Naziism, as it was.   I would suggest buggerall Muslims support Terrorism.

The thing is, you and the Islamophobes appear to act as if it is 90% which support Terrorism.  This is demonstrably untrue.


The things, you and the Islamic apologists appear to act is if it 0.000001% of which support Terrorism. This demonstrably untrue.
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #39 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 7:54am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.

TO BASE A SETTLEMENT POLICY ON
TOLERANCE
MEANS NOBODY ACCEPTS ANYBODY.

Wakey, wakey Bwian, decades of being asleep on this is showing you up as retarded.
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #40 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:30am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.



Maybe we should 'invite' a better class of migrant, one that is less demanding and less of a burden on our society.


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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #41 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:13pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.


Maybe we should 'invite' a better class of migrant, one that is less demanding and less of a burden on our society.


Let me guess, ones who are White, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic, preferably Protestant Christian and above all else, Tory voters?

Not many left of that stock in the world - thank goodness.    I wonder what the Indigenous Australians think about them?   Or doesn't their opinion count?   Roll Eyes
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #42 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:15pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.



Maybe we should 'invite' a better class of migrant, one that is less demanding and less of a burden on our society.




That rules out Herbie.

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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #43 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:29pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:34pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
You have evidence this is not happening with Muslims, Augie?  Real, verifiable evidence or just a "feeling"?


You only need to look at Europe. I don't buy the argument that Europeans have been hostile to migrants. Asian migrants in Europe seemed to have done quite well. France is an open and tolerant society, and has been for decades.


Well, first up, we aren't Europe.  We are Australians, in Australia.   Secondly, you have no understanding of the problems that Asian migrants have had in Europe - the Indians, the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis, etc.   They are still not accepted in the UK.  They are not accepted that well in France or Germany, or any other European country.   Antagonism towards them has been in the past, extreme.   It is only the arrival of large numbers of Muslims from the Middle-East and SW Asia which has changed that.

Quote:
The issue is the number of Muslim migrants in those countries, up to 7.5% of the population in the case of France.


Well, who's fault is that?  The Muslim migrants or the French authorities?  When they were desperate for factory fodder, they welcomed the Muslim migrants.  When factories closed, and competition became more fierce they turned on the most recent migrants.   The Germans have long been antagonistic towards their Turkish "guest workers".

Quote:
The reason why Muslims are well integrated in the United States and Australia is because there's less of them.


Well, percentage wise, yes, I'd agree.  However, in absolute numbers, in the US they far outweigh the numbers downunder.   You also seem to be assuming all American Muslims are migrants to the USA.  Very few are.  Most American Muslims are domestically "grown" - either converts or born there, as are most Australian Muslims.

Quote:
Which is exactly my point. It's about numbers. SA has less Muslims and so they integrate better into society compared with Sydney where there are more numbers. When you have smaller numbers they are easier to integrate into society.


Numbers are meaningless.  South Australia has had a far longer association with Muslims than Sydney has.  We had Camellers back in the mid-late-19th century.   Sydney had a handful of sailors.   Adelaide has one of the oldest Mosques in Australia, in the city centre.   Muslims are basically accepted by most South Australians.  Sydneysiders appear to have problems.   I don't think it is the Muslim's fault completely.  I'd suggest it was in part, the Sydneysiders'.   They don't like people who are different.  They don't like the Indochinese, they don't like the Muslims.     Roll Eyes

Quote:
Second, as a side note, Turkey has been a secular state and cannot be used as valid example. Also, your Afghan friend has been here for generations. In both cases, they're not really comparable examples.


I disagree.  Both demonstrate that Muslims can integrate and do become part of the wider Australian community.   I remember my Turkish-Cypriot friend being very welcomed in the local RSL before 11 September.  Afterwards?   Everybody was suspicious.   He hadn't changed - they had.

Quote:
So, the answer is no. So, how do you know that he's integrated? Integration is about your values. If your neighbour believes in Sharia law, then he hasn't integrated. Sure, he hates terrorists, so do we all. Maybe he does support Sharia law???


How do I know you're integrated, Augie?  Mmm?   Don't ask stupid questions.  Does he dance around in an Arab robe, waving a sword, screaming "Allahu Akaba"?   Of course bloody not.   Apart from the fact he isn't Arab.   You have some really weird ideas, I'd suggest, really weird ideas.

Quote:
Exactly, and we're starting to witness the affects of it. 7% of 50 million is a significant number, as is 4% of 50 million. America has 0.9% Muslims. Wonder why they better integrate into American society?


Because America accepts them, in their major cities.   Outside, they are just as narrow minded as it appears you are, Augie.  Even more so.  "Towel heads?  Kill 'em all!"   Roll Eyes

Quote:
The things, you and the Islamic apologists appear to act is if it 0.000001% of which support Terrorism. This demonstrably untrue.


I believe a tiny minority in Australia actively support Terrorism, Augie.  Figures?  Don't have them but it seems to be mainly young, impressionable people who the Police catch.   Yet you seem to think that the majority of Muslims support Terrorism.  Why?  Because the media tells you that?  Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Survey: most Aussies want to ban multiculticulti
Reply #44 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:30pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:15pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Bertie wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Why is it the prerogative the people being accepted rather than the people accepting them?
Where else do the guests dictate the rules to the hosts?


They are not "guests".  They are migrants.  They have been invited to join our society as equals.  Multiculturalism ensures that their needs and desires are met within our society.  To suggest they are "guests" shows that you do not accept them.   Remember, we as a society invited them here.



Maybe we should 'invite' a better class of migrant, one that is less demanding and less of a burden on our society.


That rules out Herbie.


He's Chinese, isn't he?   Roll Eyes
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