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9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims (Read 17481 times)
Auggie
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #555 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 12:06pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 12:08am:
Brian knows this already.. it was part of a personal message:-

No - I disagree.  The ordinary peace-loving and genuine Muslims are not copping a bad deal in
Australia.  The basic deal they get here is far better than what they would get 'back home' - they can vote, stand for public office, enter education, enter professions, move freely without undue constraint or even focus from authority, can approach authority without being assaulted BY authority, and even get some special preferential treatment via 'equal employment opportunity' .... and unless clowns like those holding up placards saying that Islam is the only way and unbelievers should lose their heads, etc, go about demonstrating their violent attitude to other people ... frankly, nobody gives a damn.

They were welcomed here - they poo on it and endlessly whine 'victim'.  Victims of what?  I've asked that many times and no apologist or Islamophile has the answer - EVER!

Get used to it.

I'm pretty much a retired over-achiever in everything, son - and I've also been homeless....I KNOW what it is to be alienated, disenfranchised, and radicalised  - you simply have no idea what I am capable of - but I never turned to crime - only to a position of trying to Lead this nation out of its current death spiral.

Wow. Really? That's impressive. Grappler for President


You may not understand that.... others do.... and as you must be aware by now, I do not advocate extreme measures such as holding up a cafe in a Muslim community and killing the barista to 'make a statement'.

I will be posting this on open discussion channel.

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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #556 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 1:54pm
 
Wasting your time there Auggie...
20 years a dishonest hypocritical TROLL and still going strong...  he'll never change.
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #557 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 1:55pm
 
Wasting your time there Auggie...
20 years a dishonest obsessive hypocritical TROLL and still going strong...  he'll never change.
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Brian Ross
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #558 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 3:46pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 11:56pm:
Arguing over the numbers has no meaning - what is important is that Muslims - and predominantly ME Muslims  (and now Africans) or their immediate descendants are over-represented in the prison inmate figures.

Why is this???

I throw THIS question open to the cloud - not this nonsense of arguing specific numbers... as I said - halve those numbers and Muslims are still over-represented in the prison system.

What are the reasons -without generalisations such as 'they are radicalised' or 'disenfranchised' or 'suffer lack of opportunity', etc - we are ALL in that boat... that's why we are here!!



All immigrant groups, upon first arrival, are "over-represented" in the Prison statistics, Graps.  Muslims are no different.

The point is, until we can check your claim about 9% it is unverifiable and so remains rubbery.   It could be 1% for all we know.  It could be 18%.    We simply cannot tell.   Until we can, it should be treated with caution.    Roll Eyes
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #559 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm
 
Auggie wrote on Oct 22nd, 1974 at 3:00am:
I am acting in no such manner, Brian Ross. Just because I disagree with you what you believe, doesn't mean that I'm an Islamophobe.



Yet you keep posting Islamophobic things, Augie.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
So, you understand that this a low standard? 'Has no interest in terrorism?' Most people on earth have no interest in terrorism. What matters are their core beliefs about women, gays, minorities etc. A Muslim may no interest in terrorism but believe that gays should be thrown in jail. Are they moderate?

Again, nothing to do with the majority, BR. Only a significant minority need hold pernicious beliefs to cause problems. If that's 20% then that's a huge problem. Don't you agree?


Their "core beliefs" are their private affair, Augie.   They are allowed to have them.   We don't mind examine all other Australians, so why the need to mind mind examine, Muslims?   Why must they be subject to special attention?   As the recent Postal Survey showed, many other Australians don't like gays.  Many other Australians don't like women being enpowered.  None of them are Muslim.  Funny that, hey?

Quote:
Nope. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort - that Japanese place special controls on Muslims. But they do have strict migration policies, particularly regarding immigrants and Asylum seekers. In fact, in 2016, Japan only took in 125 asylum seekers (including humanitarian visas).

The article you quoted stated that there were probably about 70,000 Muslims in Japan, 10% of whom had citizenship. So, let's work with 70,000 anyway. What percentage of the total Japanese population is that? My calculator couldn't even return a legible number (for some with low mathematical literacy like me), so I did 70,000/ 12,700,00 (10%) *100 of the Japanese population, and the figure was 0.55%. So, of the whole 127,000,000 population of Japan, that would be 0.55%*10, which is 0.055% of the total population.

Which exactly proves my point that it comes down to numbers....



No, what it does is refute claims about what the Japanese "do" to Muslims in their population.  In reality, they are treated no differently to any other Japanese people.   Funny that, hey?  You glossed over that to twitter on about numbers.   Numbers are not important.  Treatment is.   Got any other Islamophobic memes that need debunking?   Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
But there are 'professionally-trained' Imans who hold pernicious beliefs. They believe in slaughtering infidels, and subjugating women. You may believe it's radical, but THEY believe it's moderate. How are you going to convince them?



There are professionally trained Christian Priest who are Paedophiles, Augie.   Professional training just makes sure they know their theology.   For Muslims, that means they know the teachings of Mohammed properly.  They know how to impart those teachings.   There is no reason why they have to get the teachings right.   The majority do though.   A tiny minority, like the tiny minority who support Terrorism, get it wrong.

Quote:
I said 15% of the world Muslim population, not in Australia.


90,000 was based on your claim, Augie.   If you want to change it, then what is it for Australia, now?   We can play numbers games all day if you like.   My maths is better than yours though, I suspect.
Quote:
There have been numerous polls conducted in Muslim-majority countries which support this claim. Most people are conservative when it comes to figures, so many of them have been rolled back.


Australia isn't a "Muslim majority country".   Or haven't you figured that out yet?   Australia will in all likelihood, never be a Muslim majority country.  Ever.   What Polls have been conducted in Australia?  Mmmm?    Roll Eyes

Quote:
So, it's perfectly legitimate that they express their views (which I agree they can), and receive no criticism from you about what they are propagating, but then when myself and other people criticise certain aspect of Islamic theology, then we're called Islamophobes, and bigots???


They are called "Islamophobes" and "bigots" because no matter what a Muslim says, according them, they are wrong.   Where are their criticisms of Fred Nile?  Bob Katter?   The Catholic Church?  The Anglican Church?  Mmm?  No where.    When they are as critical of other conservative religious organisations and figures, you may have a point.    Roll Eyes

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There is no persecution going on. I'm not advocating the deportation of Muslims, nor do I oppose the construction of Mosques. I'm simply questioning if a person (any person of any culture, creed or race) shares our broad values. Now, I don't always do it because I want to be courteous to the average person, but if I've having a debate with someone then I would question their personal beliefs and values (whether they be Chinese or Muslim).


I wouldn't doubt that the Nazis claimed the same things about Krystallnacht, Augie.   "Nope, no persecution going on here, sir!"
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #560 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:06pm
 
Stop confusing bwyannnnnnnn

Doncha know he will only support this deceitful,  evil, brutal, criminal CULT, because he is either scared of them, retarded, blind or a plant.

He is a traitor to the human race.
A worthless troll.

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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #561 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:15pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Yet you keep posting Islamophobic things, Augie.   


Yet, you keep throwing that word out there. I am not Islamophobic. I like Middle Eastern culture and the Arabic/Persian languages. I want to go to the Middle East sometime. I have Muslim friends. If I'm Islamophobic, then I'm a bad one.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Their "core beliefs" are their private affair, Augie.   They are allowed to have them. 


Of course, they're allowed to have them. Their beliefs also inform us if they are going to contribute to social fabric of society. Again, this idea that 'values don't matter' or that people belief and want the same thing, is completely post-modernist in thought.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
We don't mind examine all other Australians, so why the need to mind mind examine, Muslims?


We do examine other Australians. We examine how the influx of Chinese overseas students impacts on our education system, or how their values and beliefs erode our institutions and the concept of 'rule of law'. All migrants are scrutinized. All peoples are scrutinized. I've got no problem with talking about my beliefs.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Why must they be subject to special attention?


Because many of them subscribe to an ideology that is totalitarian, militant and fascist in nature, and one that is threat to global society. If Germany had won WW2 (or if things had gone differently), do you think it wouldn't have behoved governments around the world to restrict migration from Germany in order to prevent an influx of people who believe that Jews and gays are inhumanely inferior? What if the Nazi State continue til this day?? Would it be Naziphobic to restrict immigration from Germany even if the Holocaust was no longer being practised??
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #562 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:26pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
No, what it does is refute claims about what the Japanese "do" to Muslims in their population.  In reality, they are treated no differently to any other Japanese people.   Funny that, hey?  You glossed over that to twitter on about numbers.   Numbers are not important.  Treatment is.   Got any other Islamophobic memes that need debunking?   Tsk, tsk.   


Of course numbers matter, BR. Again, this post-modernist narrative you're espousing which states that there's no such thing as beliefs, and that everyone believes in the same thing, and there is no such thing as society. Japan tolerates Muslims because they don't upset the fabric of society. Look at Brazilians in Japan, many of whom were born in Japan. They are not entitled to citizenship simply because they are not ethnically Japanese. As soon as a foreign group with enough of them start demanding equal rights, the Japanese government hits back. In fact, I doubt that any of the Muslims in Japan are citizens; maybe their convert wives/husbands are, but that different if they are Japanese.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
There are professionally trained Christian Priest who are Paedophiles, Augie.   Professional training just makes sure they know their theology. 


And I blame Catholic theology and church for those problems.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
The majority do though.   A tiny minority, like the tiny minority who support Terrorism, get it wrong.


90 million Muslims have got it wrong???

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
90,000 was based on your claim, Augie.   If you want to change it, then what is it for Australia, now?   We can play numbers games all day if you like.   My maths is better than yours though, I suspect.


90,000 of what??

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
 


No, but it indicates what people 'believe', Brian, and what their values are. This is what I've been trying to argue, and you seem to support my claim. If 10% of the Australian population were overseas-born Muslims, you're telling me we wouldn't see an increase in radicalisation or terrorism??

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Australia will in all likelihood, never be a Muslim majority country.


It doesn't have to be a 'Muslim-majority' country. Islamization can happen before that. It would most likely happen at around 30% of the population, so it doesn't have to be 50+1% of the population.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
They are called "Islamophobes" and "bigots" because no matter what a Muslim says, according them, they are wrong. 


So, if a Muslim calls for 'beheading those who insult the Prophet', are they bigots? Are they Westophobes??? Second, I've never said that all Muslims are liars.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Where are their criticisms of Fred Nile?  Bob Katter? 


And I criticise them too. And the Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church. Sure, I condemn pedophilia and believe that all the priests should've been jailed.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
I wouldn't doubt that the Nazis claimed the same things about Krystallnacht, Augie.   "Nope, no persecution going on here, sir!"


Really? You want to play that card. The Nazi Regime knew they were persecuting Jews; that was the purpose of the laws. Second, having an honest discussion about immigration, and the impact of Islamist ideology on society is NOT AKIN to mass extermination or deportation.

Talk about a strawman...
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #563 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:15pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Yet you keep posting Islamophobic things, Augie.   


Yet, you keep throwing that word out there. I am not Islamophobic. I like Middle Eastern culture and the Arabic/Persian languages. I want to go to the Middle East sometime. I have Muslim friends. If I'm Islamophobic, then I'm a bad one.


Yet you keep posting Islamophobic things, Augie.   Perhaps you need to look at what you are posting?    Roll Eyes

Quote:
Of course, they're allowed to have them. Their beliefs also inform us if they are going to contribute to social fabric of society. Again, this idea that 'values don't matter' or that people belief and want the same thing, is completely post-modernist in thought.


Of course they contribue, Augie.  Their views are all part of the greater Multiculture society.   Sure, they may be distasteful to some people but as you note, they are allowed to have them.    Roll Eyes

Quote:
We do examine other Australians. We examine how the influx of Chinese overseas students impacts on our education system, or how their values and beliefs erode our institutions and the concept of 'rule of law'. All migrants are scrutinized. All peoples are scrutinized. I've got no problem with talking about my beliefs.


We don't examine them in the way you appear to be demanding that Muslims should be examined, Augie.  As you've noted, in a free and democratic society, they are allowed to have them if they want.   Just as conservative Christians/Hindus/Jews/etc. have conservative viewpoints as well.

Quote:
Because many of them subscribe to an ideology that is totalitarian, militant and fascist in nature, and one that is threat to global society. If Germany had won WW2 (or if things had gone differently), do you think it wouldn't have behoved governments around the world to restrict migration from Germany in order to prevent an influx of people who believe that Jews and gays are inhumanely inferior? What if the Nazi State continue til this day?? Would it be Naziphobic to restrict immigration from Germany even if the Holocaust was no longer being practised??


You haven't read much by the other Islamophobes, have you, Augie.  Herbie, Issuevoter, Soren, Freediver, Geoff, etc are all proposing severe undemocratic limits on the immigration, residence and so on, of Muslims peoples in Australia.

The views of most moderate Muslims are pretty much the same as most moderate Australians.   No one is seriously proposing that Gays should be thrown off buildings, that they should be allowed to beat women and so on and so on.   There are few malcontents who do but the majority of moderate Muslims don't.   You seem unwilling to accept that for some reason.   I wonder why?    Roll Eyes
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #564 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:54pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 3:46pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 11:56pm:
Arguing over the numbers has no meaning - what is important is that Muslims - and predominantly ME Muslims  (and now Africans) or their immediate descendants are over-represented in the prison inmate figures.

Why is this???

I throw THIS question open to the cloud - not this nonsense of arguing specific numbers... as I said - halve those numbers and Muslims are still over-represented in the prison system.

What are the reasons -without generalisations such as 'they are radicalised' or 'disenfranchised' or 'suffer lack of opportunity', etc - we are ALL in that boat... that's why we are here!!



All immigrant groups, upon first arrival, are "over-represented" in the Prison statistics, Graps.  Muslims are no different.

The point is, until we can check your claim about 9% it is unverifiable and so remains rubbery.   It could be 1% for all we know.  It could be 18%.    We simply cannot tell.   Until we can, it should be treated with caution.    Roll Eyes


At this time, I'm more wondering why it is that recent immigrant groups over-represent in prisons.... did that apply to the Germans and the English etc?  Or just the browners?
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #565 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:56pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
Of course numbers matter, BR. Again, this post-modernist narrative you're espousing which states that there's no such thing as beliefs, and that everyone believes in the same thing, and there is no such thing as society. Japan tolerates Muslims because they don't upset the fabric of society. Look at Brazilians in Japan, many of whom were born in Japan. They are not entitled to citizenship simply because they are not ethnically Japanese. As soon as a foreign group with enough of them start demanding equal rights, the Japanese government hits back. In fact, I doubt that any of the Muslims in Japan are citizens; maybe their convert wives/husbands are, but that different if they are Japanese.


Again, you're avoiding that the point you were claiming, that the Japanese treat Muslims differently has clearly been refuted.  Numbers do not matter in that discussion at all, Augie.   When you admit you were wrong, we can move on.   The Japanese do not have special rules for Muslims in Japan.   Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #566 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:59pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:54pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 3:46pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 11:56pm:
Arguing over the numbers has no meaning - what is important is that Muslims - and predominantly ME Muslims  (and now Africans) or their immediate descendants are over-represented in the prison inmate figures.

Why is this???

I throw THIS question open to the cloud - not this nonsense of arguing specific numbers... as I said - halve those numbers and Muslims are still over-represented in the prison system.

What are the reasons -without generalisations such as 'they are radicalised' or 'disenfranchised' or 'suffer lack of opportunity', etc - we are ALL in that boat... that's why we are here!!



All immigrant groups, upon first arrival, are "over-represented" in the Prison statistics, Graps.  Muslims are no different.

The point is, until we can check your claim about 9% it is unverifiable and so remains rubbery.   It could be 1% for all we know.  It could be 18%.    We simply cannot tell.   Until we can, it should be treated with caution.    Roll Eyes


At this time, I'm more wondering why it is that recent immigrant groups over-represent in prisons.... did that apply to the Germans and the English etc?  Or just the browners?


It applied to the British (hey, they were the second major group of Migrants to arrive), the Irish, the Kanaks, the Italians/Greeks/Serbs/Croats/Bosnians, etc. Graps.    We had previous moral panics about their supposed criminality before the arrival of the Muslims.   It was Indochinese only 20 years ago.   Now it is the Muslims.   All new comers are treated the same - with suspicion and dislike.   We can see the South Sudanese facing the same gun sight today.  Roll Eyes
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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #567 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 5:11pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
Yet you keep posting Islamophobic things, Augie.   Perhaps you need to look at what you are posting? 


I've looked and checked. Not Islamophobic. Keep using that word.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
Of course they contribue, Augie.


Many of them do contribute, mainly financially. They also contribute in other ways too. I'm saying that you cannot contribute unless you integrate into society.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
Sure, they may be distasteful to some people but as you note, they are allowed to have them.   


Of course, people have the right to hold pernicious beliefs if they want to. The point is, should be importing more of them into Australia?? Shouldn't we think about limiting the intake of all migrants so that we can have a policy that is focused toward integration? I don't believe in discrimination based on culture and religion; if we're going to axe migration, then that includes Christians from Syria too.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
We don't examine them in the way you appear to be demanding that Muslims should be examined, Augie.  As you've noted, in a free and democratic society, they are allowed to have them if they want.   Just as conservative Christians/Hindus/Jews/etc. have conservative viewpoints as well.


The point isn't whether or not they have the right to have them, it's whether or not we should allow a policy that lets in people who hold these beliefs and aren't willing to change??? Our policy should be focused on integration/assimilation.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
all proposing severe undemocratic limits on the immigration,


Please specify what you mean by 'undemocratic limits on immigration???'

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
residence and so on


Residence, no. There should be no discrimination. Having a restricted immigration policy is not Islamophobic. Once migrants come to this country they should all be treated equally with no distinction between race, culture or religion. Everyone works their way up to citizenship at the same starting line.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
The views of most moderate Muslims are pretty much the same as most moderate Australians.   No one is seriously proposing that Gays should be thrown off buildings, that they should be allowed to beat women and so on and so on.   There are few malcontents who do but the majority of moderate Muslims don't.   You seem unwilling to accept that for some reason.   I wonder why?   


I accept that many Muslims don't want to gays off buildings or beat women. I fully accept that. It is also well-known that many Islamists move among the civilian and migrant populations to establish an area of influence, such as Salafist mosques or preachers. What I'm saying is that as the number of Muslims increase, the number of those who hold pernicious beliefs will likewise increase. For example, working on the 5% figure; if the Muslim population of Australia reaches 10%, then 100,000 people will deemed to be Islamists. That's a significant number of people, and whilst they don't represent the majority, it's enough to be organised and to influence other people.

This is what we're seeing in Europe in France and Britain where populations are increasing. As you said, we cannot know adequate who these people are or what they believe.

Second, when communities don't integrate properly, this creates isolations which leads to more incentive among some (not all) people to cling on to extremist ideologies. Radicalization is quite high in Britain.

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 4:56pm:
apanese treat Muslims differently has clearly been refuted.  Numbers do not matter in that discussion at all, Augie.   When you admit you were wrong, we can move on.   The Japanese do not have special rules for Muslims in Japan.   Tsk, tsk.   


No, no, no, Brian. I never said that the Japanese treat Muslims differently; you're putting words in my mouth. I asked why there weren't any terrorist attacks in the name of Islam in Japan. I replied that it was because there so few.

The Japanese don't take in Asylum seekers, BR.

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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #568 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 5:57pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16th, 2018 at 3:46pm:
All immigrant groups, upon first arrival, are "over-represented" in the Prison statistics, Graps.  Muslims are no different.

The point is, until we can check your claim about 9% it is unverifiable and so remains rubbery.   It could be 1% for all we know.  It could be 18%.    We simply cannot tell.   Until we can, it should be treated with caution.    Roll Eyes


Well wait a minute, you just asserted  all immigrant groups on arrival are over represented, without foundation I might add, then you agree with what others have been saying, that yes, Muslims are no different so therefore over represented, which sounds like agreement to me, then you said it was all unverifiable anyway and it could be as low as 1% which would not be over represented.  Roll Eyes

Talk about bullshit. 

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Re: 9% Of All Australian Prisoners Are Muslims
Reply #569 - Jan 16th, 2018 at 6:07pm
 
Yeah, bwyannnnnn

Prove where other migrants were over represented in crime.

WHERE ARE YOUR STATS, YOUR EVIDENCE?

Facts little troll, FACTS
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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