Australian Politics Forum - Will Australia become "Postnational" ?

Bias_2012

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Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:33pm

... Like Canada

The dangers of Trudeau's 'postnational' Canada

Douglas Todd Douglas Todd
More from Douglas Todd
Published on: March 13, 2016 | Last Updated: April 28, 2016 4:34 PM PDT

"There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’ Trudeau claimed after the October election."

http://vancouversun.com/life/the-dangers-of-trudeaus-postnational-canada

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TheFunPolice

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #1 - Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:54pm

Just a bit of bullshite inviting more immigration whilst giving his reign a kind of mystique while he’s at it!

Immigration is good because it adds customers and gives you an army but there are simply limits to it all!

Nice quote in there: “A functioning state requires broad consensus on what constitutes the first-person plural.”

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issuevoter

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #2 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:27am

Australia and the Western democracies are heading in that direction. However, I don't discredit the trend out of hand. The idea of a world of insular nations is not going to last indefinitely. That is what the strongmen of the most backward nations are trying to maintain, in particular, the Islamic countries. After the opening up of Western immigration, it was assumed the higher standard of living would invite assimilation. When it failed in the case of Muzlims, the multiculturalist had to rethink their position. They dropped assimilation as an ideal, and went for cultural equality, thus creating social bantuism. Its not going to work. Sooner or later, Western values will have to be honoured in the West, or the multicultural experiment will fail.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #3 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:28am

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:33pm:

... Like Canada

I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians. Part of the Commonwealth, English-speaking, equitable. Unlike us, they got their own flag in the 1970s. As Trudeau said, ‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’ ... ‘There are shared values – openness, respect, compassion, willingness to work hard, to be there for each other, to search for equality and justice.”

What we are - and should be - is post-racial. Anyone can share these values. I have Chinese, Japanese and Indian friends who have Australian accents and love cricket. They're in relationships with people from different nationalities. Their kids' come from all races. Having slanty eyes or dark skin isn't a marker of racial difference, it's akin to eye or hair colour.

We're still Australian, and we're still part of the Anglo-sphere.

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Bias_2012

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #4 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 11:40am

TheFunPolice wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:54pm:

Just a bit of bullshite inviting more immigration whilst giving his reign a kind of mystique while he’s at it!

Immigration is good because it adds customers and gives you an army but there are simply limits to it all!

Nice quote in there: “A functioning state requires broad consensus on what constitutes the first-person plural.”

In Australia, we all know what the highlighted bit means: "We are one"

My opinion of what constitutes "first-person plural" is: "A group of individuals"

Dictionary

first person
noun
see person (sense 2).
person |ˈpərsən|
noun ( pl. people |ˈpēpəl| or persons )
1 a human being regarded as an individual

Definition of "Postnational" from YourDictionary ...

postnational

image: http://cf.ydcdn.net/latest/images/dictionaries/Wiktionary-logo.png
Adjective

(comparative more postnational, superlative most postnational)

Pertaining to a time or mindset in which the identity of a nation is no longer important.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/postnational

Therefore, "postnational" simply means: "A group of individuals with no national identity" - is this the way Australia is headed? If it is, then we need a Trump type leader to reverse the trend

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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ? Reply #5 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 12:49pm There I was thinking that first person plural meant the group that includes me!
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Bias_2012

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #6 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 2:46pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:28am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:33pm:

... Like Canada

I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians. Part of the Commonwealth, English-speaking, equitable. Unlike us, they got their own flag in the 1970s. As Trudeau said, ‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’ ... ‘There are shared values – openness, respect, compassion, willingness to work hard, to be there for each other, to search for equality and justice.”

What we are - and should be - is post-racial. Anyone can share these values. I have Chinese, Japanese and Indian friends who have Australian accents and love cricket. They're in relationships with people from different nationalities. Their kids' come from all races. Having slanty eyes or dark skin isn't a marker of racial difference, it's akin to eye or hair colour.

We're still Australian, and we're still part of the Anglo-sphere.

Yes, I should have said: "Like Canada is doing to itself" - (transforming to, or already is, postnational)

Please explain this contradiction though ...

"I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians"

‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada"

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TheFunPolice

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #7 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 3:40pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 2:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:28am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:33pm:

... Like Canada

I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians. Part of the Commonwealth, English-speaking, equitable. Unlike us, they got their own flag in the 1970s. As Trudeau said, ‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’ ... ‘There are shared values – openness, respect, compassion, willingness to work hard, to be there for each other, to search for equality and justice.”

What we are - and should be - is post-racial. Anyone can share these values. I have Chinese, Japanese and Indian friends who have Australian accents and love cricket. They're in relationships with people from different nationalities. Their kids' come from all races. Having slanty eyes or dark skin isn't a marker of racial difference, it's akin to eye or hair colour.

We're still Australian, and we're still part of the Anglo-sphere.

Yes, I should have said: "Like Canada is doing to itself" - (transforming to, or already is, postnational)

Please explain this contradiction though ...

"I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians"

‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada"

Karnal plays the overly simplistic femo Nazi sarcastic card, aka fake/...or real, who knows?!?, PTSD card!

Ever seen anyone superglue their teeth back into place?

That’s disturbing stuff so it Comes from real shite but slutwalk doesn’t help the cause!

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Bias_2012

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #8 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 6:15pm

TheFunPolice wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 3:40pm:

Karnal plays the overly simplistic femo Nazi sarcastic card, aka fake/...or real, who knows?!?, PTSD card!

She's taking her time answering this ...

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 2:46pm:

Please explain this contradiction though ...

"I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians"

‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada"

However, I'll have to move on - this should give her a thrill, in spite of the highlighted piece

Postnationalism and human rights

In the scholarly literature, postnationalism is linked to the expansion of international human rights law and norms. International human rights norms are reflected in a growing stress on the rights of individuals in terms of their "personhood," not just their citizenship. International human rights law does not recognize the right of entry to any state by non-citizens, but demands that individuals should be judged increasingly on universal criteria not particularistic criteria (such as blood descent in ethnicity, or favoring a particular sex). This has impacted citizenship and immigration law, especially in western countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnationalism

Note that Wiki uses the variation "Postnationalism", which has a different meaning. "Postnational" would be more appropriate IMO

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #9 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:07pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 2:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:28am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 9:33pm:

... Like Canada

I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians. Part of the Commonwealth, English-speaking, equitable. Unlike us, they got their own flag in the 1970s. As Trudeau said, ‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’ ... ‘There are shared values – openness, respect, compassion, willingness to work hard, to be there for each other, to search for equality and justice.”

What we are - and should be - is post-racial. Anyone can share these values. I have Chinese, Japanese and Indian friends who have Australian accents and love cricket. They're in relationships with people from different nationalities. Their kids' come from all races. Having slanty eyes or dark skin isn't a marker of racial difference, it's akin to eye or hair colour.

We're still Australian, and we're still part of the Anglo-sphere.

Yes, I should have said: "Like Canada is doing to itself" - (transforming to, or already is, postnational)

Please explain this contradiction though ...

"I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians"

‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada"

Because they're core values rather what might be called "identity" politics. I'm not sure about the context though, so I am, at best, guessing.

You?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #10 - Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:13pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 6:15pm:

TheFunPolice wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 3:40pm:

Karnal plays the overly simplistic femo Nazi sarcastic card, aka fake/...or real, who knows?!?, PTSD card!

She's taking her time answering this ...

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 2:46pm:

Please explain this contradiction though ...

"I doubt it, Bias. Canadians have a distinct identity, like Australians"

‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada"

However, I'll have to move on - this should give her a thrill, in spite of the highlighted piece

Postnationalism and human rights

In the scholarly literature, postnationalism is linked to the expansion of international human rights law and norms. International human rights norms are reflected in a growing stress on the rights of individuals in terms of their "personhood," not just their citizenship. International human rights law does not recognize the right of entry to any state by non-citizens, but demands that individuals should be judged increasingly on universal criteria not particularistic criteria (such as blood descent in ethnicity, or favoring a particular sex). This has impacted citizenship and immigration law, especially in western countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnationalism

Note that Wiki uses the variation "Postnationalism", which has a different meaning. "Postnational" would be more appropriate IMO

I think you'd find a number of posters here would support this idea, Bias - Herbie, Bogie, Sprint, Gordon, poor Cods and the old boy to name but a few.

They don't support a sense of nationalistic Australian culture, but a wider set of Anglo or "Western" values.

The racialists, you see, support postnationalism too. They just get the source of their ideas from Russia and the US.

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Bias_2012

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Re: Will Australia become "Postnational" ?
Reply #11 - Jan 1^st, 2018 at 8:43pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 9:27am:

Australia and the Western democracies are heading in that direction. However, I don't discredit the trend out of hand. The idea of a world of insular nations is not going to last indefinitely. That is what the strongmen of the most backward nations are trying to maintain, in particular, the Islamic countries. After the opening up of Western immigration, it was assumed the higher standard of living would invite assimilation. When it failed in the case of Muzlims, the multiculturalist had to rethink their position. They dropped assimilation as an ideal, and went for cultural equality, thus creating social bantuism. Its not going to work. Sooner or later, Western values will have to be honoured in the West, or the multicultural experiment will fail.

What it boils down to essentially is: "National" versus "International"

How much of our sovereignty should we let go of?

Would you like to be a Global citizen more than an Australian citizen?

By what identity would you like to have, remain "Aussie" or some identity that an international institution will bestow upon you?

Questions like these will flow through your mind if say, Turnbull declared Australia to be "postnational" (he might as well say it now the way he goes on about Multiculturalism and ... "We must promote Islam")

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