Counter-terror experts meet in Melbourne

Updated: 2:27 pm, Monday, 11 December 2017

'The unfortunate reality is that there has been a significant and ongoing deterioration of the threat environment,' Mr Dutton said.

There have been five terror attacks in Australia since the national threat level was increased to 'probable' in September 2014, Mr Dutton said.

Across the country, 35 counter-terrorism operations have resulted in 80 people being charged, with 42 still before the courts, including five juveniles.

And don't forget, G_d appeared to Moses behind a burning bush.

Right, Moses?

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Rocks talk and donkeys fly, that is as funny as a put down as I have ever heard, almost worth a smiley face.

Setanta wrote on Dec 17^th, 2017 at 12:28am:

Except the Muslims continue with this garbage full on and the others are prepared to let it go, the 700 virgins are still running strong as.

Johnnie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2017 at 12:44am:


Like I've said, I've worked with fundy christians, heard their daily conversations, what they really believe, the bible is the word of god and literally true. The fact they don't go around acting on it, mostly, is a good thing but the sickness is still there.

Johnnie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2017 at 12:52am:


I have no love of Islam, it's a poison of the mind. I also have no love of the other ideologies that poison peoples minds. I'm quite capable of seeing which one is more of a problem currently. I'm also capable of calling out one snake oil salesman telling people to not buy the others snake oil.

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 16^th, 2017 at 3:01pm:




moses got OWNED!

He'll never be able to show his face here again.

Johnnie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2017 at 1:01am:


Overrun by what? People or ideas?

It is one of the best documented historical events of the time. How do you think Israel started?

Despite being regarded in Judaism as the primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the 8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the then‐current battle for territory against Egypt.[4]

The archaeological evidence of local Canaanite, rather than Egyptian, origins of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40‐year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[5] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are of the Canaanite god El, the pottery is in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing Israelite villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones.

William Dever, an archaeologist normally associated with the more conservative end of Syro-Palestinian archaeology, has labeled the question of the historicity of Exodus “dead.” Israeli archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog provides the current consensus view on the historicity of the Exodus;[6]

“”The Israelites never were in Egypt. They never came from abroad. This whole chain is broken. It is not a historical one. It is a later legendary reconstruction — made in the seventh century [BCE] — of a history that never happened.

Quote:


Is Israel evidence? Or does the obvious stuff not count?

Quote:


Sounds like a convenient myth to me.

How do Historians prove that a city mentioned in an old text did not in fact exist?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 12:23pm:


Inconvenient truths, such as Archaeology reveals, FD.   Revealed by the lack of remains in the correct strata of the earth.   

Of course, the Jews wouldn't lie, now would they, FD?  No, they're not like the Muslims, are they?  Or the Christians or even the Australians, now are they?   

How do Historians prove that a city mentioned in an old text did not in fact exist?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 12:23pm:


When they dig in that city and find at the lowest layers only artifacts from a particular period, it's pretty certain that the city started at the time of the oldest artifacts.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 4:02pm:


So absence of evidence is evidence of absence?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 8:50pm:


Seriously FD, you are just grasping at straws. Why do you need the exodus to have occurred? What is your dog in this fight?

The fact of the matter is that archaeology says that some of the cities did not exist at the time of the exodus and you will need to come up with something better than grasping at straws to show they did.

If they were not extant cities when archaeologists dig, there is nothing stopping them from digging where ever they like and as deep as they like.

I agree Islam is not a doctrine compatible with the west, it has not gone through the change it needs to become so ....

but one for Moses is the Golden Calf story when he comes down from Mt Sinai. Exodus 32:27.

Quote:


Funnily enough Moses did not take his own words to heart and kill Aaron who instigated the Golden Calf idol.

Setanta wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 10:20pm:


Are you saying that nature never cleans up the refuse?

Also, if nothing is found, does that not merely tell you that the city did not exist in the place you looked, or did exist but the conditions were not suitable for preservation of the artifacts? How do you go from there to saying that the city never existed at all? I would expect that what passed for a city thousands of years ago would be a small town by today's standards.

This is not grasping at straws. I am pointing out a fundamental logical fallacy. You don't get to turn logic on its head just because you are an archeologist and you cannot go and dig wherever you want. This is no less silly than claiming that evolution tells us that missing links do not exist.

There is zero evidence that any of these locations were simply invented by the author of the book of Exodus.  Secular scholars, including University of Tel Aviv archaeologist Israel Finkelstein, agree on this issue.  The problem is, that many of these cities and forts did not exist during the time period that the Biblical account asserts!
https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/the-cities-mentioned-i...

However, the archeological conclusions are not based primarily on the absence of Sinai evidence. Rather, they are based upon the study of settlement patterns in Israel itself. Surveys of ancient settlements--pottery remains and so forth--make it clear that there simply was no great influx of people around the time of the Exodus (given variously as between 1500-1200 BCE). Therefore, not the wandering, but the arrival alerts us to the fact that the biblical Exodus is not a literal depiction. In Israel at that time, there was no sudden change in the kind or the volume of pottery being made. (If people suddenly arrived after hundreds of years in Egypt, their cups and dishes would look very different from native Canaanites'.) There was no population explosion. Most archeologists conclude that the Israelites lived largely in Canaan over generations, instead of leaving and then immigrating back to Canaan.
http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2004/12/did-the-exodus-really-happen.asp...

Most towns and cities are on a riverbank. Riverbanks move. They don't always bury evidence of civilisation in layer upon layer of mud. Sometimes they sweep the whole thing out to sea. Where do you think beach sand comes from?

Setanta wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2017 at 7:43pm:


Even the driest deserts get flooded occasionally. In fact it tends to cause more erosion there, on account of the lack of vegetation.

I'm actually be interested if FD elaborated on his rather extraordinary claim that the existence of Israel is evidence of an exodus. FD?

Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.[29][30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

I am not trying to tell you archaeology is wrong. I am telling you that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Quoting a particularly certain Israeli does not change this.

Setanta wrote on Dec 16^th, 2017 at 11:00pm:


Yes, but Moses will tell you Jesus came along and changed all that. He doesn't believe in all that old fashioned banning and killing and hating, he's been born again.

As Moses.

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17^th, 2017 at 12:13am:



as a historical figure, jesus never led armies.
he certainly wasnt a warlord.
his message is pretty much that "life is suffering" and that you can transcend that suffering (being nailed to a cross) by bearing your suffering with nobility.

mohammed certainly was a warlord. he was at war his whole life. he practiced conversion at the end of the  sword and immediately after his death, his followers split and have been at a brutal civil war ever since.

now you can try to be "amused" about these facts but it doesnt stop them being factual.

yes, there is a historical problem with islam and pandering to it is simply unhelpful

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 8:50pm:


Set every time you respond you seem to be talking about a different claim made 'by archaeology'.

moses wrote on Dec 27^th, 2017 at 1:38pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2017 at 9:13pm:

State of Palestine/Founded
15 November 1988

Has Mummy bought you some nice toys to play with little BS, run along then little boy and play with yourself.

Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a geographic region in Western Asia. It is usually considered to include the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Israel, and in some definitions, some parts of western Jordan. The name was used by Ancient Greek writers, and it was later used for the Roman province Syria Palaestina, the Byzantine Palaestina Prima, and the Islamic provincial district of Jund Filastin. The region comprises most of the territory claimed for the biblical regions known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el), the Holy Land or Promised Land. Historically, it has been known as the southern portion of wider regional designations such as Canaan, Syria, ash-Sham, and the Levant.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

So, are you agreeing that the jews have always held title to the land?  Little boy, how are your new toys? Did your mummy give you a map of the biblical jew boys land?

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 4:37pm:

All of them?

Frank wrote on Dec 29^th, 2017 at 5:29pm:

All of them?

Setanta wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 6:18pm:


You started by making claims that a city did not exist.

I understand that the Bible also claims that the early Israelites were polytheistic.

You left out the bit about stool Karnal.

Setanta wrote on Dec 28^th, 2017 at 6:18pm:


You started by making claims that a city did not exist.

I understand that the Bible also claims that the early Israelites were polytheistic.

freediver wrote on Dec 30^th, 2017 at 8:25am:


I gave you evidence of why the exodus is bullshyte. I'm over this, believe what you will.

This was a first. As Nietzsche showed, the Greeks and Romans were happy to settle for allegorical myths. The Jews wanted literal truth. For Nietzsche, the issue was not the truth of the Jews' one god, or their history, or their prophets. For Nietzsche, the issue was the way the Jewish notion of truth shaped Western thought.

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 30^th, 2017 at 8:49pm:


I am sure the focus on truth had important implications, and my article on the religious foundations for modern science touches on this, but I think you overstate your case by claiming the ancients believed their beliefs to be myths.

Killings in the Name of Islam  2017: there were 2029 Islamic attacks in 61 countries, in which 15641 people were killed and 14219 injured.


Australian National Security tells us:

Currently, 25 organisations are listed as terrorist organisations under the Criminal Code. They are:

•Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Listed 14 November 2002, re-listed 5 November 2004, 3 November 2006, 1 November 2008, 29 October 2010, 12 July 2013 and 28 June 2016


•Al-Murabitun
Listed 5 November 2014, re-listed 2 November 2017


•Al-Qa'ida (AQ)
Listed 21 October 2002, re-listed 1 September 2004, 26 August 2006, 9 August 2008, 22 July 2010, 12 July 2013 and 28 June 2016


•Al-Qa'ida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Listed 26 November 2010, re-listed 26 November 2013 and 26 November 2016.


•Al-Qa’ida in the Indian Subcontinent (AQIS)
Listed 28 November 2016


•Al-Qa’ida in the Lands of the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)
Listed 14 November 2002, re-listed 5 November 2004, 3 November 2006, 9 August 2008, 22 July 2010, 12 July 2013 and 28 June 2016


•Al-Shabaab
Listed 22 August 2009, re-listed 18 August 2012 and 11 August 2015


•Ansar al-Islam
Formerly known as Ansar al-Sunna—Listed 27 March 2003, re-listed 27 March 2005, 24 March 2007, 14 March 2009, 9 March 2012 and 3 March 2015


•Boko Haram
Listed 26 June 2014 and re-listed 27 June 2017.


•Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades
Listed 9 November 2003, re-listed 5 June 2005, 7 October 2005, 8 September 2007, 8 September 2009, 18 August 2012 and 11 August 2015


•Hizballah's External Security Organisation (ESO)
Listed 5 June 2003, re-listed 5 June 2005, 25 May 2007, 16 May 2009, 12 May 2012 and 2 May 2015


•Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Listed 11 April 2003, re-listed 11 April 2005, 31 March 2007, 14 March 2009, 10 March 2012 and 3 March 2015


•Islamic State
Formerly listed as Al-Qa’ida in Iraq—2 March 2005, re-listed 17 Feb 2007, 1 Nov 2008, 29 Oct 2010, 12 July 2013. Formerly listed as Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant on 14 Dec 2013. Listed 11 July 2014 as Islamic State and re-listed 1 July 2017.


•Islamic State East Asia
Listed 8 September 2017


•Islamic State in Libya (IS-Libya)
Listed 28 November 2016


•Islamic State Khorasan Province
2 November 2017


•Islamic State Sinai Province (IS-Sinai)
Listed 28 November 2016.


•Jabhat al-Nusra
Listed 29 June 2013, re-listed 28 June 2016 and amended on 4 November 2016 to include alias Jabhat Fatah al-Sham.


•Jaish-e-Mohammed
Listed 11 April 2003, re-listed 11 April 2005, 31 March 2007, 14 March 2009, 10 March 2012 and 3 March 2015


•Jamiat ul-Ansar (JuA)
Formerly known as Harakat Ul-Mujahideen—Listed 14 November 2002, re-listed 5 November 2004, 3 November 2006, 1 November 2008, 29 October 2010, 12 July 2013 and 28 June 2016


•Jemaah Islamiyah (JI)
Listed 27 October 2002, re-listed 1 September 2004, 26 August 2006, 9 August 2008, 22 July 2010, 12 July 2013 and 28 June 2016


•Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)
Listed 17 December 2005, re-listed 28 September 2007, 8 September 2009, 18 August 2012 and 11 August 2015


•Lashkar-e Jhangvi
Listed 11 April 2003, re-listed 11 April 2005, 31 March 2007, 14 March 2009, 10 March 2012 and 3 March 2015


•Lashkar-e-Tayyiba
Listed 9 November 2003, re-listed 5 June 2005, 7 October 2005, 8 September 2007, 8 September 2009, 18 August 2012 and 11 August 2015


•Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Listed 3 May 2004, re-listed 5 June 2005, 7 October 2005, 8 September 2007, 8 September 2009, 18 August 2012 and 11 August 2015

I don't know what they would look for. None of the links you have provided explain these basic principles. They just give opinions about how little evidence they have. I would not expect them to leave much behind. Shards of pottery at best.

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2018 at 3:39pm:


err... not sure what your logic is FD, or if you even know yourself.

And the claim is conjecture at best. A more accurate statement would be that its mythology goes way back to that time

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2018 at 5:38pm:


One should definitely not look for truth in Religious books. The only truth in them is man's failings.