Australian Politics Forum - trees rocks talk donkeys fly

freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #285 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims until they stop waging war or convert is a just war doctrine of self defense - yes:

Quote:

As for the oppressor who does not fight, then there are no texts in which God commands him to be fought. Rather, the unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they wage war, as is practiced by the majority of scholars and as is evident in the Book and Sunnah.

and...

Quote:

Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us.

This is the verse you quoted Gandalf:

Quote:

Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God.

It is basically saying to spread Islam by the sword. You couldn't have picked a worse extract from the Quran to justify your absurd claims about Islam's just war doctrine.

Or perhaps you could have. You could have picked the verse that refer clearly and unambiguously to restricting war to proportional self defence. But you chose to ignore it, even after I gave it to you last time you were lying to us about this. Why is that Gandalf? You go to absurd lengths to read into verses things they simply do not say, but leave out the one verse that does make direct references to a just war doctrine.

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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #286 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims until they stop waging war or convert is a just war doctrine of self defense - yes:

Quote:

As for the oppressor who does not fight, then there are no texts in which God commands him to be fought. Rather, the unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they wage war, as is practiced by the majority of scholars and as is evident in the Book and Sunnah.

and...

Quote:

Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us.

This is the verse you quoted Gandalf:

Quote:

Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God.

It is basically saying to spread Islam by the sword. You couldn't have picked a worse extract from the Quran to justify your absurd claims about Islam's just war doctrine.

Or perhaps you could have. You could have picked the verse that refer clearly and unambiguously to restricting war to proportional self defence. But you chose to ignore it, even after I gave it to you last time you were lying to us about this. Why is that Gandalf? You go to absurd lengths to read into verses things they simply do not say, but leave out the one verse that does make direct references to a just war doctrine.

It's not defensive war, FD. It's pre-emptive war. Muhammad had eliminate any 'perceived' threats in order to protect Muslims, just like when Israel invaded Lebanon?

The point is now, that many Muslims need to understand, is that Islam is no longer under treat, and so pre-emptive warfare is no longer necessary.

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #287 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims until they stop waging war or convert is a just war doctrine of self defense - yes:

Quote:

As for the oppressor who does not fight, then there are no texts in which God commands him to be fought. Rather, the unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they wage war, as is practiced by the majority of scholars and as is evident in the Book and Sunnah.

and...

Quote:

Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us.

How is this any different to quoting your "paraphrasing" of the Quran?

And it is not, as you claim, a "A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims". It is a verse instructing Muslims to fight until there is no more "fitnah", which has a variety of translations and meanings. For a clue to the meaning in this particular context, the rest of the sentence says to convert them to Islam by the sword.

Again, you are reading into the Quran something that is not actually there, while ignoring the clear and unambiguous references to a just war doctrine.

Your lies about the Quran are completely at odds with what the Quran actually says as well as Muhammad's actions.

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Frank

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #288 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:43am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:27am:

Laying claim to a piece of land based on a claimed several thousand year heritage isn't necessarily a religious thing. Evidently this is the justification FD has adopted.

Where zionists and orthodox jews (who also claim the land of Palestine) differ is in the belief that God himself promised the land to the jews.

There are far more Jews in Israel and Jerusalem than Arabs.
What would you do about them?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #289 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:13am

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:43am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:27am:

Laying claim to a piece of land based on a claimed several thousand year heritage isn't necessarily a religious thing. Evidently this is the justification FD has adopted.

Where zionists and orthodox jews (who also claim the land of Palestine) differ is in the belief that God himself promised the land to the jews.

There are far more Jews in Israel and Jerusalem than Arabs.
What would you do about them?

Send them to Bondi.

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Frank

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #290 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:12pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:13am:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:43am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:27am:

Laying claim to a piece of land based on a claimed several thousand year heritage isn't necessarily a religious thing. Evidently this is the justification FD has adopted.

Where zionists and orthodox jews (who also claim the land of Palestine) differ is in the belief that God himself promised the land to the jews.

There are far more Jews in Israel and Jerusalem than Arabs.
What would you do about them?

Send them to Bondi.

Where do we send the Arabs from Auburnon? Back to their various shitholes?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #291 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:17pm

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:12pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:13am:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:43am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:27am:

Laying claim to a piece of land based on a claimed several thousand year heritage isn't necessarily a religious thing. Evidently this is the justification FD has adopted.

Where zionists and orthodox jews (who also claim the land of Palestine) differ is in the belief that God himself promised the land to the jews.

There are far more Jews in Israel and Jerusalem than Arabs.
What would you do about them?

Send them to Bondi.

Where do we send the Arabs from Auburnon? Back to their various shitholes?

Merrylands, I think. We sell them McMansions.

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moses

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #292 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:22pm

Aw gee the poor bloody muslim can't be blamed his holy books are stacked against him/her.

this source tells us

Quote:

Fight/ Kill/ Murder:-

In the English language, Fight can mean to : Combat, Struggle, Resist, Strife, War, do battle.

In the Arabic language, one word QATL with its DERIVATIVES can mean all of the following:

Fight: Qital, Kifah, 'Airak, Harb, etc

Kill: Qatl, Thabh, Jazr

Murder: Qatl

Slaughter: Thabh, Jazr

Slay: Qatl

KILL, MURDER, FIGHT, COMBAT, SLAY, PUT TO DEATH, SLAUGHTER, ETC.

Invariably, the interpreters of the Quran use the more 'sanitised' terms to convey a more moderate connotation. This word Qital, Qatl, Qatala, Yaqtulu, Youqatilou, is usually used against all those who do not believe in Muhammad and his Quran.

This word and its derivatives are repeated in the Quran and Ahadith at least 35,213 times.

You see KILL, MURDER, FIGHT, COMBAT, SLAY, PUT TO DEATH, SLAUGHTER, ETC. are taught 35,213 times in the holy books.

then this site tells us
Quote:

164 Jihad Verses in the Koran

The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

164 verses of jihad in the quran plus the words KILL, MURDER, FIGHT, COMBAT, SLAY, PUT TO DEATH, SLAUGHTER, ETC. are taught 35,213 times in the holy books.

Now let's be fair how many time is the word love used in the qur'an?

well this site tells us

Quote:

The word love, hubb in its various grammatical forms, is used 69 times in the Qur'an. The writer has divided these into five categories:

(1) Man's Love of Things (15 times)
(2) Human Love (15 Times)
(3) Man's Love for God (7 times)
(4) Negative - God Does Not Love The ... (22 times)
(5) God's love for Man (20 times)

A mere 79 times love is mentioned and some of this teaches that allah does not love certain people.

So we have over 35,000 times the muslims are told to slaughter etc., 164 verses of jihad and a lousy 79 verses where the word love is used,.

no wonder muslims are the top 24 listed worldwide terrorist organizations.

When will muslims and their apologists stop lying to us and deal with the hate and depravity in islamic doctrine which causes islamic terrorism?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #293 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:23pm Chapter 9 is all about encouraging Muslims to slaughter non-Muslims. From start to finish.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92296 Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #294 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:43pm freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 2:23pm: Chapter 9 is all about encouraging Muslims to slaughter non-Muslims. From start to finish. Where are your quotes, FD?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #295 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 5:19pm Good question Karnal. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92296 Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #296 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 5:38pm freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 5:19pm: Good question Karnal. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313 But, FD, you've just quoted moi.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #297 - Jan 15^th, 2018 at 3:01pm

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:

A verse instructing muslims to fight aggressors who continue to wage war against muslims until they stop waging war or convert is a just war doctrine of self defense - yes:

Quote:

As for the oppressor who does not fight, then there are no texts in which God commands him to be fought. Rather, the unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they wage war, as is practiced by the majority of scholars and as is evident in the Book and Sunnah.

and...

Quote:

Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us.

This is the verse you quoted Gandalf:

Quote:

Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God.

It is basically saying to spread Islam by the sword. You couldn't have picked a worse extract from the Quran to justify your absurd claims about Islam's just war doctrine.

No, FD, this is the verse I quoted:

Quote:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors

(2:193)

the verse you quoted is 8:39, which surprise surprise you didn't quote it in full:

Quote:

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

What do you think "then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do" is telling us?

My interpretation: Allah sees when good deeds are done, in this case "ceasing" persecution. He therefore won't look kindly upon muslims engaging in further hostilities against people who have made amends. I can't see any other interpretation that makes sense

I reject outright any notion of abrogation within the Quran - and therefore I seek interpretations that maintains thematic and logical consistency. And since 2:193 (and others) is so unambiguously such a clear endorsement of fighting only in self defence, I cannot accept an interpretation of other verses that contradict this. And moreover I have the overwhelming consensus of Islamic scholars to back me up.

Quote:

Or perhaps you could have. You could have picked the verse that refer clearly and unambiguously to restricting war to proportional self defence. But you chose to ignore it, even after I gave it to you last time you were lying to us about this. Why is that Gandalf? You go to absurd lengths to read into verses things they simply do not say, but leave out the one verse that does make direct references to a just war doctrine.

Oh yeah, the verse I kept asking you to cite specifically. Good idea FD, lets discuss that - if only you could tell me what verse it is so we had some idea what the hell you are talking about. Over to you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #298 - Jan 15^th, 2018 at 4:58pm

Ah, so there are two verses that call on Muslims to convert people to Islam by the sword. Do you consider both to be declarations of a just war doctrine based on self defence and proportionality?

Quote:

Oh yeah, the verse I kept asking you to cite specifically. Good idea FD, lets discuss that - if only you could tell me what verse it is so we had some idea what the hell you are talking about. Over to you.

I'm pretty sure I presented it to you several times in the last thread where you started spinning this lie about Islam's just war doctrine. Have you forgotten?

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« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2018 at 5:04pm by freediver »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #299 - Jan 15^th, 2018 at 5:40pm

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2018 at 4:58pm:

Do you consider both to be declarations of a just war doctrine based on self defence and proportionality?

Absolutely, but I'm not going to repeat myself.

Is there something you find confusing about the sentence "But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."? To me its as crystal clear as can be.

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2018 at 4:58pm:

I'm pretty sure I presented it to you several times in the last thread where you started spinning this lie about Islam's just war doctrine. Have you forgotten?

Yes FD, I've forgotten. The last thread was months ago. Are you able to find the verse?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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