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Iranian democracy (Read 8918 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #210 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm
 
I agree with you on that count Frank, Whitlam did screw the pooch. His choice of ministers was in several cases, fatally flawed. (Cairns, Connor, Grassby, ring any bells?)
That does not change the facts surrounding the dismissal.
Even Whitlam himself chose to let it go, after the fact. He could either keep his mouth shut and go on to become a respected elder statesman, or incur the further involvement of foreign agents in his and his families life, so he chose the former.

I am aware that this sounds like insane conspiracy nut stuff, and I cannot prove that last bit at all, but the initial collusion between the CIA and the Libs is incontrovertibly true, so to me the second bit follows as a logical assumption, on my behalf. We know that US agents were active in Australia at the time.
We know Marshall Green was a CIA operative who helped organise coups against democratically elected governments in South Korea, Indonesia(that one was a beauty, it armed and trained the muslim extremists in indonesia that saw at least half a million people slaughtered) Chile, and finally AUSTRALIA.

That so few Australians know these facts is appalling.
Marshall Green and Garfield Barwick planned every stage, and had a complicit, paid off stooge already in place, in the shape of John Kerr, to implement their plan. He could not refuse,without having his prior dealings as a CIA stooge revealed by them. His guilt saw him destroy whatever reputation he had left by degenerating into a running joke as a non functional alcoholic, whilst still in office. Looking him in the eye a litlle less than a year after the dismissal, you saw a man who was truly "lost".
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capitosinora
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #211 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 9:21am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:18am:
freediver wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?


NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.


Please keep CIA out of that  American president is not your head of state and US Ambassador is not your Governor General.
Don't use us as a skategoat in your affairs  with your colonial master Britain.
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #212 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:10am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:25pm:
No Idea. I've never read it.
Does it say anything about foreign agents colluding with opposition representatives to bring down a freely elected government outside of the normal electoral cycle?


That's what the governor general is there for. He didn't do it by shooting anyone who stood in his way. He did it by exercising his constitutional powers.
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Frank
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #213 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:20am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
I agree with you on that count Frank, Whitlam did screw the pooch. His choice of ministers was in several cases, fatally flawed. (Cairns, Connor, Grassby, ring any bells?)
That does not change the facts surrounding the dismissal.
Even Whitlam himself chose to let it go, after the fact. He could either keep his mouth shut and go on to become a respected elder statesman, or incur the further involvement of foreign agents in his and his families life, so he chose the former.

I am aware that this sounds like insane conspiracy nut stuff, and I cannot prove that last bit at all, but the initial collusion between the CIA and the Libs is incontrovertibly true, so to me the second bit follows as a logical assumption, on my behalf. We know that US agents were active in Australia at the time.
We know Marshall Green was a CIA operative who helped organise coups against democratically elected governments in South Korea, Indonesia(that one was a beauty, it armed and trained the muslim extremists in indonesia that saw at least half a million people slaughtered) Chile, and finally AUSTRALIA.

That so few Australians know these facts is appalling.
Marshall Green and Garfield Barwick planned every stage, and had a complicit, paid off stooge already in place, in the shape of John Kerr, to implement their plan. He could not refuse,without having his prior dealings as a CIA stooge revealed by them. His guilt saw him destroy whatever reputation he had left by degenerating into a running joke as a non functional alcoholic, whilst still in office. Looking him in the eye a litlle less than a year after the dismissal, you saw a man who was truly "lost".

Pretty story- except you can't conspire to have a landslide election results.. The people of Australia dismissed Whitlam, resoundingly. 

Frazer blocked supply. Whitlam could not govern. the GG can't force the opposition to allow supply. A government that can't  govern because of parliamentary block on it must go to the people for a new mandate. The GG could do nothing else but to precipitate that by calling on the only power that can resolve parliamentary deadlocks like that.

You don't need the CIA or the Crown to tell you that much.
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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2018 at 12:29pm by Frank »  
 
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Frank
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #214 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 12:43pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:48am:
Would you like to have another go at answering the question?


What sound does a jellyfish make?



Ask Bwian's spine.


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mozzaok
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #215 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 1:00pm
 
capitosinora wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 9:21am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:18am:
freediver wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?


NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.


Please keep CIA out of that  American president is not your head of state and US Ambassador is not your Governor General.
Don't use us as a skategoat in your affairs  with your colonial master Britain.


CIA a scapegoat??
I am not sure what you mean by that, but if you would rather hate britain, they were involved too. MI6 was bugging the government and passing on info to the CIA, so they were involved as facilitators, if not primary instigators and planners.

Do you really think that the electoral process was fair, in the aftermath of a coup, organised by, and for the benefit of foreign powers???

Are any of you so naive that you do not believe a concerted media campaign cannot sway a gullible public?

Do you really believe that the coup master, Marshall Green, and  liberal party powerbroker Garfield Barwick did not already have the media on board, well before the events of November 75?
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #216 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 3:31pm
 
You do realise that there is no evidence of the US being involved in a "coup" in Canberra?

When you present some evidence, we'll examine it.   Not just, "so-and-so was known as the 'coupmaster' and was the US Ambassador to Canberra."   I want real, hard proof.   Evidence that proves that the US provided funds, information, organisational help, etc.   Just as was presented to the Church Committee.    Roll Eyes
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capitosinora
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #217 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 8:29pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
capitosinora wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 9:21am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:18am:
freediver wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?


NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.


Please keep CIA out of that  American president is not your head of state and US Ambassador is not your Governor General.
Don't use us as a skategoat in your affairs  with your colonial master Britain.


CIA a scapegoat??
I am not sure what you mean by that, but if you would rather hate britain, they were involved too. MI6 was bugging the government and passing on info to the CIA, so they were involved as facilitators, if not primary instigators and planners.

Do you really think that the electoral process was fair, in the aftermath of a coup, organised by, and for the benefit of foreign powers???

Are any of you so naive that you do not believe a concerted media campaign cannot sway a gullible public?

Do you really believe that the coup master, Marshall Green, and  liberal party powerbroker Garfield Barwick did not already have the media on board, well before the events of November 75?


Sorry Australia is not American but British colony.
Again some mad conspiracy theory against USA.
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mozzaok
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #218 - Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:20pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:20am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
I agree with you on that count Frank, Whitlam did screw the pooch. His choice of ministers was in several cases, fatally flawed. (Cairns, Connor, Grassby, ring any bells?)
That does not change the facts surrounding the dismissal.
Even Whitlam himself chose to let it go, after the fact. He could either keep his mouth shut and go on to become a respected elder statesman, or incur the further involvement of foreign agents in his and his families life, so he chose the former.

I am aware that this sounds like insane conspiracy nut stuff, and I cannot prove that last bit at all, but the initial collusion between the CIA and the Libs is incontrovertibly true, so to me the second bit follows as a logical assumption, on my behalf. We know that US agents were active in Australia at the time.
We know Marshall Green was a CIA operative who helped organise coups against democratically elected governments in South Korea, Indonesia(that one was a beauty, it armed and trained the muslim extremists in indonesia that saw at least half a million people slaughtered) Chile, and finally AUSTRALIA.

That so few Australians know these facts is appalling.
Marshall Green and Garfield Barwick planned every stage, and had a complicit, paid off stooge already in place, in the shape of John Kerr, to implement their plan. He could not refuse,without having his prior dealings as a CIA stooge revealed by them. His guilt saw him destroy whatever reputation he had left by degenerating into a running joke as a non functional alcoholic, whilst still in office. Looking him in the eye a litlle less than a year after the dismissal, you saw a man who was truly "lost".

Pretty story- except you can't conspire to have a landslide election results.. The people of Australia dismissed Whitlam, resoundingly. 

Frazer blocked supply. Whitlam could not govern. the GG can't force the opposition to allow supply. A government that can't  govern because of parliamentary block on it must go to the people for a new mandate. The GG could do nothing else but to precipitate that by calling on the only power that can resolve parliamentary deadlocks like that.

You don't need the CIA or the Crown to tell you that much.



https://www.crikey.com.au/2015/11/25/rundle-proving-the-cia-backed-conspiracy-th...

There is plenty of documentation of the CIA involvement in the dismissal, because you are unaware of facts, does not mean they cease to be, just that you are ignorant of them.

I have always held the view I shared here, because I used to listen to parliament daily, as I worked, and I became concerned when weeks before the Dismissal, a labor member asked just what Marshall green, a man reported as being involved with the overthrowing of the democratically elected governments of Allende, in Chile, and Sukarno, in Indonesia, was doing having secret meetings with Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal attorney general, and known lib power broker and planner.

His concern for what was being planned is therefore on record in Hansard for any who wish to look.
So the unbelievably biased media campaign which had been running all year, was now put into context, and the coup to be was already in motion.
There are many sources online to read from people at the time who were involved, if you really care, but I am almost certain you do not, and no amount of evidence would ever convince you otherwise.
Those seduced by the media campaign that ran against labor at the time, will never be able to admit they were duped by US power brokers whose only goal was to protect their secret services.
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gandalf
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #219 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 3:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?


Obviously. Fraser was PM at the time of the election because he had been appointed by Kerr after dismissing Whitlam. When you are no longer PM and the party you lead is no longer the government - that generally means your government has been "brought down". Whether or not the government that replaces you is called a "caretaker" government or not is completely irrelevant to this point. That all happened before the election FD. Not exactly sure how you can dispute this. Obviously you won't, you'll just no doubt ask another idiotic and nonsensical rhetorical question as if you are making a point.
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #220 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:08pm
 
Quote:
Whether or not the government that replaces you is called a "caretaker" government or not is completely irrelevant to this point.


Even if the process happens exactly as it was intended by the constitution?
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mozzaok
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #221 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
Quote:
Whether or not the government that replaces you is called a "caretaker" government or not is completely irrelevant to this point.


Even if the process happens exactly as it was intended by the constitution?


Well if the Chief Justice of Australia can't work out a plan that uses the constitution to his political parties favour, he would be pretty sloppy.
It was handy that he also would be the one to JUDGE the constitutionality of it as well.

But so long as they got the "VIBE" right.


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Frank
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #222 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:51pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:20pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 14th, 2018 at 10:20am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
I agree with you on that count Frank, Whitlam did screw the pooch. His choice of ministers was in several cases, fatally flawed. (Cairns, Connor, Grassby, ring any bells?)
That does not change the facts surrounding the dismissal.
Even Whitlam himself chose to let it go, after the fact. He could either keep his mouth shut and go on to become a respected elder statesman, or incur the further involvement of foreign agents in his and his families life, so he chose the former.

I am aware that this sounds like insane conspiracy nut stuff, and I cannot prove that last bit at all, but the initial collusion between the CIA and the Libs is incontrovertibly true, so to me the second bit follows as a logical assumption, on my behalf. We know that US agents were active in Australia at the time.
We know Marshall Green was a CIA operative who helped organise coups against democratically elected governments in South Korea, Indonesia(that one was a beauty, it armed and trained the muslim extremists in indonesia that saw at least half a million people slaughtered) Chile, and finally AUSTRALIA.

That so few Australians know these facts is appalling.
Marshall Green and Garfield Barwick planned every stage, and had a complicit, paid off stooge already in place, in the shape of John Kerr, to implement their plan. He could not refuse,without having his prior dealings as a CIA stooge revealed by them. His guilt saw him destroy whatever reputation he had left by degenerating into a running joke as a non functional alcoholic, whilst still in office. Looking him in the eye a litlle less than a year after the dismissal, you saw a man who was truly "lost".

Pretty story- except you can't conspire to have a landslide election results.. The people of Australia dismissed Whitlam, resoundingly. 

Frazer blocked supply. Whitlam could not govern. the GG can't force the opposition to allow supply. A government that can't  govern because of parliamentary block on it must go to the people for a new mandate. The GG could do nothing else but to precipitate that by calling on the only power that can resolve parliamentary deadlocks like that.

You don't need the CIA or the Crown to tell you that much.



https://www.crikey.com.au/2015/11/25/rundle-proving-the-cia-backed-conspiracy-th...

There is plenty of documentation of the CIA involvement in the dismissal, because you are unaware of facts, does not mean they cease to be, just that you are ignorant of them.

I have always held the view I shared here, because I used to listen to parliament daily, as I worked, and I became concerned when weeks before the Dismissal, a labor member asked just what Marshall green, a man reported as being involved with the overthrowing of the democratically elected governments of Allende, in Chile, and Sukarno, in Indonesia, was doing having secret meetings with Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal attorney general, and known lib power broker and planner.

His concern for what was being planned is therefore on record in Hansard for any who wish to look.
So the unbelievably biased media campaign which had been running all year, was now put into context, and the coup to be was already in motion.
There are many sources online to read from people at the time who were involved, if you really care, but I am almost certain you do not, and no amount of evidence would ever convince you otherwise.
Those seduced by the media campaign that ran against labor at the time, will never be able to admit they were duped by US power brokers whose only goal was to protect their secret services.

Look, I am not for a moment doubt that there are various people at any given time thinking about how to get rid of a government. I don't even doubt that the CIA, MI6, the Palace and assorted other groupings would have discussed the disaster the Whitlam Government was becoming.  Everyone was talking about the government and the endless scandals and controversies and grandstanding and blunders.

The risk to Pine Gap sounds interesting until you realise that it is superfluous. Frazer and the Libs wanted to get rid of Whitlam and get back into government. They could block supply so they did. Gough could not govern without supply, the GG could not instruct Parliament to unblock supply so he did the only thing that was possible: Frazer as caretaker and fresh elections. Whitlam was wiped out and wiped out again a few years later, before he quit. The simplest explanation is best. Grand conspiracies were unnecessary and would have made the whole thing much more complex and therefore easier to backfire.  Block supply. The guy's done. Simple.

Watch if something like this doesn't happen to Malcolm. If he loses his majority Labor would immediately block him and trigger new election and he would be out, too.  No need for the CIA.  People would be peculating about China and its displeasure about Australia's posturing as an 'overlord'. But you wouldn't need China, you just need naked political ambition from the opposition plus and opportunity. Politics is a blood sport, not a gentlemen's game.  i





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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #223 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:57pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:43pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
Quote:
Whether or not the government that replaces you is called a "caretaker" government or not is completely irrelevant to this point.


Even if the process happens exactly as it was intended by the constitution?


Well if the Chief Justice of Australia can't work out a plan that uses the constitution to his political parties favour, he would be pretty sloppy.
It was handy that he also would be the one to JUDGE the constitutionality of it as well.

But so long as they got the "VIBE" right.




The conspiracy is growing. You still haven't said whether the people who wrote the constitution were in on the conspiracy. Were they? How about the voting public who delivered such a fragile government?
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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #224 - Jan 15th, 2018 at 7:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 15th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
Quote:
Whether or not the government that replaces you is called a "caretaker" government or not is completely irrelevant to this point.


Even if the process happens exactly as it was intended by the constitution?


Oh look, FD makes another non-point with an idiotic and irrelevant rhetorical question.

Yes FD, Kerr brought down a democratically elected government (ie not "the people" as you claimed) - and maybe it "happened exactly as it was intended by the constitution". Can you see yet how you are not saying anything to refute this point?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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