Australian Politics Forum - Iranian democracy

polite_gandalf

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #195 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:14pm

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 12:31pm:

Crap. He triggered an election. Australian voters brought down the democratically elected government by electing another one.

Thats crap FD. Kerr dismissed Whitlam and thereafter invited Fraser to form a caretaker government. His government ended there and then. That is the bringing down of a democratically elected government - a government that still had the confidence of the house, and which was about to call a half-senate election to break the deadlock. That Whitlam had the chance to win the election that followed and form another government - doesn't change this fact.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #196 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 12:31pm:

Crap. He triggered an election. Australian voters brought down the democratically elected government by electing another one.

Thats crap FD. Kerr dismissed Whitlam and thereafter invited Fraser to form a caretaker government. His government ended there and then. That is the bringing down of a democratically elected government - a government that still had the confidence of the house, and which was about to call a half-senate election to break the deadlock. That Whitlam had the chance to win the election that followed and form another government - doesn't change this fact.

Freeeedom, innit.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47356 At my desk.	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #197 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?
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Frank

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #198 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 12:31pm:

Crap. He triggered an election. Australian voters brought down the democratically elected government by electing another one.

Thats crap FD. Kerr dismissed Whitlam and thereafter invited Fraser to form a caretaker government. His government ended there and then. That is the bringing down of a democratically elected government - a government that still had the confidence of the house, and which was about to call a half-senate election to break the deadlock. That Whitlam had the chance to win the election that followed and form another government - doesn't change this fact.

You are arguing for keeping the people out of the decison making as long as possible.

When the House is not a correct representation of the will of the people, it's time for elections.
Kerr was right - let the people decide. AND THEY DID. That's all that matters. Why would you want to prevent the people to have a say when their opinion was clear to all?

Whitlam would have been re-elected if he had been really so great. He was crap. He was turfed out. Another Platonic philosopher king that came a cropper with his subjects.

And I say this with enormous admiration for his intellect. Ultimately he was a classicist yet a 68-er. And the 68-er in him won out - and so he failed. All 68-ers are recipes for disaster. Look at the EU leadership. Clapped out 68-ers.

Had the classicist won, Whitlam may have trumped Menzies.

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« Last Edit: Jan 12^th, 2018 at 9:26pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92261 Gender:	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #199 - Jan 12^th, 2018 at 10:51pm freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm: So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened? Of course. The Governor General gave the minority opposition power, as every schoolboy knows.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47356 At my desk.	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #200 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 7:59am Would it have been as dramatic if the role was a paid independent position along the lines of the reserve bank rather than one appointed by the queen?
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capitosinora

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #201 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 8:41am

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 12:31pm:

capitosinora wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:09am:

freediver wrote on Jan 11^th, 2018 at 9:35pm:

capitosinora wrote on Jan 11^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 11^th, 2018 at 12:32pm:

How about dictatorship? Does it matter if we try to use dictatorship to try to get the right people in charge?

Call it whatever you want as long as people are happy with it.
Such quibbling over semantics seems petty stuff.
For some it is democracy when you have British head of state, with absolute power, who hasn't been democratically elected for 60 years.
And for the same people it is dictatorship when you have Russian democratically elected head of state with over 80% votes.

As Deng Xiaoping said: "It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

Are you saying our queen has absolute power?

Yes your Queen has constitutional right to dismiss democratically elected prime minister and parliament what happened in 1974 with Gough Whitlam.
The fact is that you have a foreign head of state that is not democratically elected which makes Australia nondemocratic (or at the best quasi democratic) British colony.
It looks that Everyone in the world knows that except you who live in denial. However if you are happy with that good on you as long as you (your media and politicians
don't in hypocritical manner criticise democratic countries (like for example Russia*) of having dictatorship.

* Russia has democratically elected head of state and parlament

Does it bother you when people quibble over semantic issues like the meaning of "absolute power" and it gets in the way of you dribbling idiocy everywhere?

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You are right about one thing though - Kerr didn't act unilaterally, he conspired with the opposition leader to bring down a democratically elected government.

Crap. He triggered an election. Australian voters brought down the democratically elected government by electing another one.

As long as you have British queen and British flag you will be: "Spatially huge, culturally tiny and politically insignificant" (Robert Hughes) and of course our and British puppet whore.
That's your reality that you have to live with it.

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« Last Edit: Jan 13^th, 2018 at 8:48am by capitosinora »

GOD BLESS AMERICA

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47356 At my desk.	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #202 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 8:48am Would you like to have another go at answering the question?
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mozzaok

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #203 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:18am

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm:

So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?

NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Frank

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #204 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:40am

mozzaok wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:18am:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm:

So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?

NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.

So the scheme was to have an election before more damage is done.

And there was a free and fair election.
Some Machiavellian scheme.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92261 Gender:	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #205 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:14am freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 8:48am: Would you like to have another go at answering the question? What sound does a jellyfish make?
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mozzaok

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #206 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:26am

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:40am:

mozzaok wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:18am:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm:

So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?

NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.

So the scheme was to have an election before more damage is done.

And there was a free and fair election.
Some Machiavellian scheme.

How many governments in the whole history of Australia, would survive, a surprise snap poll, in the middle of their term?

Statistically, very few. Governments get the tough stuff done in the middle, then start promising the brain dead pleabs more crap in the roll up to the next election.

So saying it was all hunky dory because the people got their say is totalcrap. I do not know if you are old enough, but the media coverage at that time was hard to imagine as possibly being more biased against the government than any I have seen in my lifetime, by aconsiderable margin.

This was no accident, the power brokers were not taking chances, back room deals were done to cover all bases.
They could not take the chance of going so far and failing, they would have ended up in jail for treason, in bringing down a legallly elected government.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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freediver

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #207 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 12:23pm

mozzaok wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:18am:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm:

So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?

NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.

You left out the people who wrote the constitution. Would it be fair to say they had a hand in it also?

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Iranian democracy Reply #208 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 7:25pm No Idea. I've never read it. Does it say anything about foreign agents colluding with opposition representatives to bring down a freely elected government outside of the normal electoral cycle?
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Frank

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Re: Iranian democracy
Reply #209 - Jan 13^th, 2018 at 9:53pm

mozzaok wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:40am:

mozzaok wrote on Jan 13^th, 2018 at 10:18am:

freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2018 at 8:20pm:

So it was an overthrow because there was a caretaker government until the election happened?

NO, It was an overthrow because neither Fraser or Kerr, brought this coup d'etat into being.
It was US CIA operative, Marshall Green, and Sir Garfield Barwick, former Liberal Attorney General, under Menzies, and Chief Justice, at the time of the dismissal, who conceived and put into motion their machiavellian scheme.

So the scheme was to have an election before more damage is done.

And there was a free and fair election.
Some Machiavellian scheme.

How many governments in the whole history of Australia, would survive, a surprise snap poll, in the middle of their term?

Statistically, very few. Governments get the tough stuff done in the middle, then start promising the brain dead pleabs more crap in the roll up to the next election.

So saying it was all hunky dory because the people got their say is totalcrap. I do not know if you are old enough, but the media coverage at that time was hard to imagine as possibly being more biased against the government than any I have seen in my lifetime, by aconsiderable margin.

This was no accident, the power brokers were not taking chances, back room deals were done to cover all bases.
They could not take the chance of going so far and failing, they would have ended up in jail for treason, in bringing down a legallly elected government.

Whitlam was a great man but a crap politician and PM. Probably because he was a great man.

But that's not enough In politics and especially not in government. Caesar was a great man and they knifed him.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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