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The Unaffordable Tax Cuts (Read 10007 times)
whiteknight
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The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:09pm
 
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts



Federal Labor is maintaining its opposition to the government's plan for further cuts to company tax after the treasurer called on CEOs to take up the fight for tax cuts on its behalf. 

Treasurer Scott Morrison has written to hundreds of corporate leaders asking for their support.





But Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade. 

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.


"We would rather look after ordinary people than give the top end of town a tax cut."

Mr Morrison criticised the opposition, saying Labor would increase taxes on business and investment.


"Business knows this is the right way forward and can't afford to sit on the fence when it comes to supporting policies like our enterprise tax plan," Mr Morrison told News Corp Australia.




The government has so far legislated a tax cut for businesses with turnovers of up to $50 million, leaving the remainder on a rate of 30 per cent.

But further cuts face a roadblock in the Senate with Labor and the Greens opposed to the full plan.

The Treasurer's plea comes ahead of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's speech to the Business Council of Australia to be delivered on Monday evening.

A survey by the council found 81 per cent of CEOs said they would increase investment if taxes were cut, while 70 per cent said they would hire more staff.

"Every day that Australia delays action risks putting us further behind the rest of the world," Business Council of Australia chief executive Jennifer Westacott said.
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whiteknight
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #1 - Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm
 
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley
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juliar
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #2 - Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:49pm
 
With boring monotony the gloom and doom BlackDay pumps out the contrived GetUp! anti Australian propaganda.

And the corrupt unions that control every aspect of the equally corrupt Labor Party are trying to close down ALL industry here in Australia.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #3 - Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:50pm
 
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:09pm:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts



Federal Labor is maintaining its opposition to the government's plan for further cuts to company tax after the treasurer called on CEOs to take up the fight for tax cuts on its behalf. 

Treasurer Scott Morrison has written to hundreds of corporate leaders asking for their support.





But Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade. 

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.


"We would rather look after ordinary people than give the top end of town a tax cut."

Mr Morrison criticised the opposition, saying Labor would increase taxes on business and investment.


"Business knows this is the right way forward and can't afford to sit on the fence when it comes to supporting policies like our enterprise tax plan," Mr Morrison told News Corp Australia.




The government has so far legislated a tax cut for businesses with turnovers of up to $50 million, leaving the remainder on a rate of 30 per cent.

But further cuts face a roadblock in the Senate with Labor and the Greens opposed to the full plan.

The Treasurer's plea comes ahead of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's speech to the Business Council of Australia to be delivered on Monday evening.

A survey by the council found 81 per cent of CEOs said they would increase investment if taxes were cut, while 70 per cent said they would hire more staff.

"Every day that Australia delays action risks putting us further behind the rest of the world," Business Council of Australia chief executive Jennifer Westacott said.


Just like they did when penalty rates were cut! Lying a*($holes! Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Dnarever
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #4 - Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm
 
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #5 - Nov 20th, 2017 at 7:15pm
 
In the past, Tax cuts have been part of the standard ways of motivating the Economy to pick up & it generally worked!

That said, "Times have changed", "this time is certainly different" AND even IF Tax Cuts do come it will NOT Push the Economy higher!
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #6 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:25am
 
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley


Shorten is just being cute. It was once ALP policy. The about face came about as soon as the coalition adopted it. To anybody that actually understands the macroeconomic effects of corporate taxes would understand that his intransigence is more hurtful to the wage earner than it is to the owners of the capital.

Retained earnings are the basis of productivity growth. Just so happens that productivity is at historical lows with the capital side in negative territory. The Shorten solution is to keep taxing productivity. Pan it if you want but stop bleating because wages growth is non-existent.

The reform is actually rather important.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:28am
 
macman wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:50pm:
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:09pm:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts



Federal Labor is maintaining its opposition to the government's plan for further cuts to company tax after the treasurer called on CEOs to take up the fight for tax cuts on its behalf. 

Treasurer Scott Morrison has written to hundreds of corporate leaders asking for their support.





But Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade. 

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.


"We would rather look after ordinary people than give the top end of town a tax cut."

Mr Morrison criticised the opposition, saying Labor would increase taxes on business and investment.


"Business knows this is the right way forward and can't afford to sit on the fence when it comes to supporting policies like our enterprise tax plan," Mr Morrison told News Corp Australia.




The government has so far legislated a tax cut for businesses with turnovers of up to $50 million, leaving the remainder on a rate of 30 per cent.

But further cuts face a roadblock in the Senate with Labor and the Greens opposed to the full plan.

The Treasurer's plea comes ahead of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's speech to the Business Council of Australia to be delivered on Monday evening.

A survey by the council found 81 per cent of CEOs said they would increase investment if taxes were cut, while 70 per cent said they would hire more staff.

"Every day that Australia delays action risks putting us further behind the rest of the world," Business Council of Australia chief executive Jennifer Westacott said.


Just like they did when penalty rates were cut! Lying a*($holes! Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


The staff hiring is just fluff. The important message is the lack of investment in capital stock. Stop whinging while productivity drops so low that corporations are forced to domicile their operations elsewhere.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:32am
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.


Could you explain how a cut to the corporate tax rate benefits only wealthy people.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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juliar
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:33am
 
Disappointing that the croc didn't pluck a graph or two out of the ether.

The suspicion is that China is paying the unions to force industries to leave Australia with their sabotage and extortion so the work goes to China.

Bull S. assumes that that great bottomless bucket of money somewhere up in the sky will never get empty and will fund welfare bludging forever.

WELFARE for ALL for EVER is Bull S.'s begging for votes call. Makes the Lefties go all gooey.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #10 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:05pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 7:15pm:
In the past, Tax cuts have been part of the standard ways of motivating the Economy to pick up & it generally worked!

That said, "Times have changed", "this time is certainly different" AND even IF Tax Cuts do come it will NOT Push the Economy higher!

The worst tax-dodge in Australia is the compulsory super, and the generous tax concessions to the rich.
The imputation credit is the other tax-dodge, and most of it goes to the super-rich retirees, as the article below shows.

Government dodges the super elephant.
Superannuation tax breaks described by Australia Institute as the Hindenburg of the federal budget
AM
By James Glenday
Audio: Think tank wants big change to retirees' benefits (AM)
"Superannuation concessions are unfair ... the top 5 per cent of income earners get a third of the benefit, and the bottom 20 per cent get literally nothing."
The report suggests scrapping concessions entirely, introducing a universal or non-means-tested age pension and upping the current rate by about 7.5 per cent to $26,273 a year for singles and nearly $39,611 for couples.
The Australia Institute says that plan would cost about $52 billion annually, leaving the budget between $13 billion and $22 billion better off. It says more money would flow to women and poor people.
"You often hear people say the more people spend on superannuation tax concessions, the more we save on the age pension," Dr Denniss said.
"In theory that's possible, but in practice it's just not the case. If it were the case, the combined cost of these two schemes would be flat-lining."
Furthermore, as the super assets are growing, and more and more frauds are reported, it will reach a point of “Too big too fail”, the government will pick up the tab, while most of the funds managers will walk away as multimillionaires.
The Australian government provides a safety net of the age pension to everybody of pension age and residential qualification, therefore if a “Self funded retirees” assets or income falls below the cut-off level of the age pension, he/she is entitled to a part-pension yet at the lower end of the pension scheme, a part-pensioner starts losing $0.50 of every dollar of the age pension, once a single pensioner earns $4,000 or a couple $7,000, keeping the retirees on very modest extra income virtually on the poverty line.
How can the Australian government get away with this blatant discrimination of the age pensioners; because Associations like COTA, ACOSS, SCOA, SA Superannuants, all other Associations affiliated with ACPSRO and the Unions fail to represent the interest of their lower income or wages members, because the leaders of this Associations benefit more from the governments generosity towards the high-income and assets benefits them in the same way as the politicians.

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Bobby.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #11 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:13pm
 
Turnbull is going to give us all a big tax cut -

he wrote it on a beer coaster
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #12 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm
 
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.
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I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
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Sir lastnail
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #13 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #14 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #15 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:26pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


and turning a blind eye whilst his mates running the four pillars of trash banking system fuels the property bubble with mountains of debt that can never be paid back Sad
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #16 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:32am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.


Could you explain how a cut to the corporate tax rate benefits only wealthy people.


You are absolutely correct the big benefits go to pensioners who own corporations and the unemployed owners of companies ???
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #17 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:37pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:32am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.


Could you explain how a cut to the corporate tax rate benefits only wealthy people.


You are absolutely correct the big benefits go to pensioners who own corporations and the unemployed owners of companies ???


So does the population consist of only wealthy people, pensioners and the unemployed ?

A cut to the corporate tax rate is also a cut to the imputed credit. The tax payed by the shareholder doesn't change one iota. So how does the proposed tax cut affect only wealthy people.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #18 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


That is axiomatic. However, the long term downward trend in total factor productivity is a far greater problem. No productivity = No wages growth. Taxing retained earnings is pretty dumb.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #19 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:43pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:26pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


and turning a blind eye whilst his mates running the four pillars of trash banking system fuels the property bubble with mountains of debt that can never be paid back Sad



Hi Nail,
it's a typical banana republic.

Without borrowing money the Govt. would be unable to pay pensioners anything.
We'd have no social security.
This situation is very bad.
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #20 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Bam
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #21 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:25am:
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley


Shorten is just being cute. It was once ALP policy. The about face came about as soon as the coalition adopted it. To anybody that actually understands the macroeconomic effects of corporate taxes would understand that his intransigence is more hurtful to the wage earner than it is to the owners of the capital.

Retained earnings are the basis of productivity growth. Just so happens that productivity is at historical lows with the capital side in negative territory. The Shorten solution is to keep taxing productivity. Pan it if you want but stop bleating because wages growth is non-existent.

The reform is actually rather important.

How is this to be funded?

We've got a massive and unsustainable Budget deficit. Explaining how these cuts are going to be funded is extremely important. The supporters of this measure seem to fall mysteriously silent whenever the source of funds for the tax cuts is queried.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #22 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


Take a look:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


$595 billion

when Abbott said that $200 billion was an emergency!
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Sir lastnail
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #23 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:50pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


you keep banging on like there is no consequences to this when the burden is automatically transferred to the tax payers in terms of higher taxes Sad
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #24 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:04pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


That is axiomatic. However, the long term downward trend in total factor productivity is a far greater problem. No productivity = No wages growth. Taxing retained earnings is pretty dumb.

Consumption taxes are worse. These are regressive taxes designed to take a far greater percentage of the income of workers than the wealthy.

The worst of all are the private taxes such as toll roads. Whoever thought it was a good idea to pander to these rent seekers should be taken out the back and shot.

Both of these are drivers of wealth inequality.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #25 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


Take a look:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


$595 billion

when Abbott said that $200 billion was an emergency!


Keep wasting your time gawking at the debt clock if you want to. It's about as useful as the bottom half of a mermaid.

Any half decent bean counter will tell you that there are two sides to a balance sheet. Pointing to liabilities without consideration to inflows is not very useful. Even less useful when the target of bond issues is not divulged. Keep resisting the urge to pick up that macro book if you want. Your ignorance will remain profound.

Just for the record, your figure of $100 million per day is only 2.28% of the entire economy's GDP output for a year. It's not even half of the annual nominal growth of the economy you dipstick.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #26 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:27pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:25am:
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley


Shorten is just being cute. It was once ALP policy. The about face came about as soon as the coalition adopted it. To anybody that actually understands the macroeconomic effects of corporate taxes would understand that his intransigence is more hurtful to the wage earner than it is to the owners of the capital.

Retained earnings are the basis of productivity growth. Just so happens that productivity is at historical lows with the capital side in negative territory. The Shorten solution is to keep taxing productivity. Pan it if you want but stop bleating because wages growth is non-existent.

The reform is actually rather important.

How is this to be funded?

We've got a massive and unsustainable Budget deficit. Explaining how these cuts are going to be funded is extremely important. The supporters of this measure seem to fall mysteriously silent whenever the source of funds for the tax cuts is queried.


It isn't as gloomy as you indicate. Remember that it is only the retained earnings that receive the tax break. The shareholder distributions remain unchanged tax wise as the franking credit is also reduced dollar for dollar.

There may be a temporary shortfall for some years but the downward trend in productivity cannot continue will lead to even larger balance of payments issues while profits dive, wages stagnate and corporations domicile their operations elsewhere.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #27 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:29pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:04pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


That is axiomatic. However, the long term downward trend in total factor productivity is a far greater problem. No productivity = No wages growth. Taxing retained earnings is pretty dumb.

Consumption taxes are worse. These are regressive taxes designed to take a far greater percentage of the income of workers than the wealthy.

The worst of all are the private taxes such as toll roads. Whoever thought it was a good idea to pander to these rent seekers should be taken out the back and shot.

Both of these are drivers of wealth inequality.


All of that too. Unfortunately they have little impact on productivity growth. Given the imputed credit system, how exactly does a cut to the corporate tax rate benefit only rich dudes.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #28 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:38pm
 
.........
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #29 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:39pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:50pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


you keep banging on like there is no consequences to this when the burden is automatically transferred to the tax payers in terms of higher taxes Sad


Nails, you're as bad as Bobby. Every year, on average, the national economy in nominal terms grows by around 5%. Naturally, the money supply must grow at the same rate. As long as the growth in net debt does not exceed the growth of the money supply less the servicing cost it doesn't matter a fukk.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #30 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm
 



A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #31 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:38pm:

.........

Stick a teacup under it. That'll look more realistic.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #32 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm
 
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


And create other problems along the way. Particularly with lower income earners.

Better to attack our ridiculously high EMTRs.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #33 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:48pm
 
EMTRs are well understood by our "needy greedy" perhaps we could employ some of them to work out how to get people working.
Because they will know.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #34 - Nov 21st, 2017 at 10:29pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm:
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


And create other problems along the way. Particularly with lower income earners.

Better to attack our ridiculously high EMTRs.


We could significantly increase the number of low income earners that pay no income tax at all. As an added bonus it would shift the burden of bureaucracy off them.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #35 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:00am
 
juliar wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:33am:
Disappointing that the croc didn't pluck a graph or two out of the ether.

The suspicion is that China is paying the unions to force industries to leave Australia with their sabotage and extortion so the work goes to China.

Bull S. assumes that that great bottomless bucket of money somewhere up in the sky will never get empty and will fund welfare bludging forever.

WELFARE for ALL for EVER is Bull S.'s begging for votes call. Makes the Lefties go all gooey.


Amazing contradiction - even for you.  First Labor is breaking down jobs and aiding in  sending them to China, then they are digging some endless 'welfare pit' on some 'bottomless pit of money'.

Boring and rather insane.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #36 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:06am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.



Have you got a list?
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #37 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:09am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:29pm:
All of that too. Unfortunately they have little impact on productivity growth. Given the imputed credit system, how exactly does a cut to the corporate tax rate benefit only primarily rich dudes, who are the holders of the vast majority of shares.


Fixed for you - no charge....
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #38 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:10am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:21pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


Take a look:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


$595 billion

when Abbott said that $200 billion was an emergency!


Keep wasting your time gawking at the debt clock if you want to. It's about as useful as the bottom half of a mermaid.

Any half decent bean counter will tell you that there are two sides to a balance sheet. Pointing to liabilities without consideration to inflows is not very useful. Even less useful when the target of bond issues is not divulged. Keep resisting the urge to pick up that macro book if you want. Your ignorance will remain profound.

Just for the record, your figure of $100 million per day is only 2.28% of the entire economy's GDP output for a year. It's not even half of the annual nominal growth of the economy you dipstick.



Look again   $595 billion  is only a small part of the massive debt.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #39 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:10am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:21pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


the government is just as much addicted to credit cards as are the punters. Sad



yep - borrowing $100 million per day just to stop
our economy from collapsing.


Issuing bonds is not quite the same as taking out a loan. It's been explained to you many times. Too dumb to understand. Go away and buy a decent macro text book.


Take a look:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


$595 billion

when Abbott said that $200 billion was an emergency!


Keep wasting your time gawking at the debt clock if you want to. It's about as useful as the bottom half of a mermaid.

Any half decent bean counter will tell you that there are two sides to a balance sheet. Pointing to liabilities without consideration to inflows is not very useful. Even less useful when the target of bond issues is not divulged. Keep resisting the urge to pick up that macro book if you want. Your ignorance will remain profound.

Just for the record, your figure of $100 million per day is only 2.28% of the entire economy's GDP output for a year. It's not even half of the annual nominal growth of the economy you dipstick.



Look again   $595 billion  is only a small part of the massive debt.


Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #40 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:05am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:09am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:29pm:
All of that too. Unfortunately they have little impact on productivity growth. Given the imputed credit system, how exactly does a cut to the corporate tax rate benefit only primarily rich dudes, who are the holders of the vast majority of shares.


Fixed for you - no charge....


Grapples, are you sure about that top 2% of IQ you once claimed. I'll type slowly 'cause I know you can't read fast.

The reduction in the tax rate also reduces the imputation credit to the shareholder. The tax paid does not change. Explain again how a corporate tax rate cut affects only wealthy shareholders. You haven't thought this one through.

A cut in the corporate tax rate is not a tax cut to the shareholder.
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« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:12am by crocodile »  

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #41 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

...
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #42 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #43 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:14am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.



Show me the national income clock.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #44 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:34am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:14am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.



Show me the national income clock.


You're the one that likes fancy, irrelevant clocks. Go find it yourself. While you're at it, how about the value of the assets purchased with debt. Forget about that one did you.

Now stop wasting everybody's time and go and buy a decent textbook. After that you may at least have a clue how economies and finance actually works.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #45 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:34am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:14am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.



Show me the national income clock.


You're the one that likes fancy, irrelevant clocks. Go find it yourself. While you're at it, how about the value of the assets purchased with debt. Forget about that one did you.

Now stop wasting everybody's time and go and buy a decent textbook. After that you may at least have a clue how economies and finance actually works.

 

I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #46 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:46am
 
its sad that it will probably come to us needing to pump GST to 15 %.

if someone offers you something and they dont talk about the cost and the responsibility then you should run a mile from that person.

the average voter is behaving like a child at the moment.

when a politician offers gonski or the NDIS or renewable energy and doesnt talk about the bad stuff, the cost and the extra burdens on the voters, then you should know (unless you are a child) that they are talking BS.

its only the toddler who thinks they can get spoilt rotten and never have to shoulder any responsibility for it.

everytime a politician offers you the candy, just remember they are the wolf in hansel and gretel. come into my gingerbread house . gingerbread is pleasure, a house represents safety.when someone offers you pleasure and safety for free, no strings attached, run a mile from that person
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #47 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #48 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:33am
 
aquascoot wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:46am:
its sad that it will probably come to us needing to pump GST to 15 %.

if someone offers you something and they dont talk about the cost and the responsibility then you should run a mile from that person.

the average voter is behaving like a child at the moment.

when a politician offers gonski or the NDIS or renewable energy and doesnt talk about the bad stuff, the cost and the extra burdens on the voters, then you should know (unless you are a child) that they are talking BS.

its only the toddler who thinks they can get spoilt rotten and never have to shoulder any responsibility for it.

everytime a politician offers you the candy, just remember they are the wolf in hansel and gretel.
come into my gingerbread house . gingerbread is pleasure, a house represents safety.when someone offers you pleasure and safety for free, no strings attached, run a mile from that person


You got that right...
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #49 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:34am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 10:29pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm:
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


And create other problems along the way. Particularly with lower income earners.

Better to attack our ridiculously high EMTRs.


We could significantly increase the number of low income earners that pay no income tax at all. As an added bonus it would shift the burden of bureaucracy off them.


Yeah - make em all part-time casual, raise the costs of living way beyond their wildest dreams, give them no hope for any future, and if any dissent they can always go on the non-dole.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #50 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:56am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:34am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:14am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.



Show me the national income clock.


You're the one that likes fancy, irrelevant clocks. Go find it yourself. While you're at it, how about the value of the assets purchased with debt. Forget about that one did you.

Now stop wasting everybody's time and go and buy a decent textbook. After that you may at least have a clue how economies and finance actually works.

 

I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.


That's because you are consumed with nonsense websites like the debtclock. It has been pointed out to you many times that the information is useless without looking at the comparative income side of the ledger.

Just for your edification see both the gross and net debt positions on the government ledger.

...


Note that medium term gross debt is around the levels of the mid '90s. However, net debt is much lower. That is, there is also a lot more income to balance the outflow and it's falling. For fukk sake, it's not even at historical highs. Your chicken little comments are unfounded. The present debt levels, in the current circumstances are about right. Any moves to surplus in this situation will only escalate debt in the private sector. About the last thing we need right now.

For the last time, buy a fukking text book.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #51 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:07pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:46am:
its sad that it will probably come to us needing to pump GST to 15 %.

if someone offers you something and they dont talk about the cost and the responsibility then you should run a mile from that person.

the average voter is behaving like a child at the moment.

when a politician offers gonski or the NDIS or renewable energy and doesnt talk about the bad stuff, the cost and the extra burdens on the voters, then you should know (unless you are a child) that they are talking BS.

its only the toddler who thinks they can get spoilt rotten and never have to shoulder any responsibility for it.

everytime a politician offers you the candy, just remember they are the wolf in hansel and gretel. come into my gingerbread house . gingerbread is pleasure, a house represents safety.when someone offers you pleasure and safety for free, no strings attached, run a mile from that person


There is nothing new about the candy offerings. This has been standard fare ever since the ancient Greeks decided to have elections.

It has really only become problematic once Howard decided to roll around the country in a debt truck in order to make political mileage out of a non existent debt problem. It is unfortunately part of the modern day narrative with the punters dead scared of government debt.

To make it worse, the doling out of enormous amounts of middle class welfare is something that is almost impossible to rewind without losing political skin. Double whammy. Nobody wants the debt but still wants the candy.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #52 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:26pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

That has already been shown to be horseshit


To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.


Its a bit unfortunate that you are choosing to look only at government sector debt. We can't say the same thing about private sector debt. Anyone who understands sectoral balances will quickly realise that government sector surpluses are equivalent, dollar for dollar to private sector deficits. The escalation of private sector debt during the late '90s and early '00s are a direct result of unnecessary focus on wiping out government bond issues.

...

It is plain to see that as budgets move into surplus, the private sector moves into deficit. In other words, the debts were simply transferred to the private sector. They did not magically vanish.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #53 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 10:29pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm:
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


And create other problems along the way. Particularly with lower income earners.

Better to attack our ridiculously high EMTRs.


We could significantly increase the number of low income earners that pay no income tax at all. As an added bonus it would shift the burden of bureaucracy off them.


All that does is kick the can further down the road. The EMTRs just bite a bit further along the income track.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #54 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #55 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:52pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


Sorry Bobby, you're doomed to be a nuffy all your life. As far as I or anybody else knows, debt is serviced by income. Maybe not in your parallel universe.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #56 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 1:27pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


Sorry Bobby, you're doomed to be a nuffy all your life. As far as I or anybody else knows, debt is serviced by income. Maybe not in your parallel universe.



Sorry - you lose -
we're borrowing money to pay the debt.

Using one credit card to pay another.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #57 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 1:46pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 1:27pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


Sorry Bobby, you're doomed to be a nuffy all your life. As far as I or anybody else knows, debt is serviced by income. Maybe not in your parallel universe.



Sorry - you lose -
we're borrowing money to pay the debt.

Using one credit card to pay another.


That's laughable. Waste of time arguing with a dunce.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #58 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 3:42pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:27pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:25am:
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley


Shorten is just being cute. It was once ALP policy. The about face came about as soon as the coalition adopted it. To anybody that actually understands the macroeconomic effects of corporate taxes would understand that his intransigence is more hurtful to the wage earner than it is to the owners of the capital.

Retained earnings are the basis of productivity growth. Just so happens that productivity is at historical lows with the capital side in negative territory. The Shorten solution is to keep taxing productivity. Pan it if you want but stop bleating because wages growth is non-existent.

The reform is actually rather important.

How is this to be funded?

We've got a massive and unsustainable Budget deficit. Explaining how these cuts are going to be funded is extremely important. The supporters of this measure seem to fall mysteriously silent whenever the source of funds for the tax cuts is queried.


It isn't as gloomy as you indicate. Remember that it is only the retained earnings that receive the tax break. The shareholder distributions remain unchanged tax wise as the franking credit is also reduced dollar for dollar.

Only for those who actually received these generous tax credits. Foreign shareholders don't receive them. The net effect will be an increase in the money sent offshore.

The only way to restore fairness to the corporate taxation system is to scrap dividend imputation. It was a sensible idea when the corporate tax rate was 49% of taxable profits but it's now just a handbrake on lowering company taxes. Most countries don't have such a system and it's keeping our company taxes high. Scrapping that can raise enough funds to make a 25% company tax rate affordable without deepening the Budget deficit.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #59 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 3:42pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:27pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:49pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:25am:
whiteknight wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says his party won't budge on the government's proposal to reduce the corporate tax rate to 25 per cent over the next decade.   

"We are not going to give multinationals a reduction in their tax. We don't think that's the way to go," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network on Monday.   Smiley


Shorten is just being cute. It was once ALP policy. The about face came about as soon as the coalition adopted it. To anybody that actually understands the macroeconomic effects of corporate taxes would understand that his intransigence is more hurtful to the wage earner than it is to the owners of the capital.

Retained earnings are the basis of productivity growth. Just so happens that productivity is at historical lows with the capital side in negative territory. The Shorten solution is to keep taxing productivity. Pan it if you want but stop bleating because wages growth is non-existent.

The reform is actually rather important.

How is this to be funded?

We've got a massive and unsustainable Budget deficit. Explaining how these cuts are going to be funded is extremely important. The supporters of this measure seem to fall mysteriously silent whenever the source of funds for the tax cuts is queried.


It isn't as gloomy as you indicate. Remember that it is only the retained earnings that receive the tax break. The shareholder distributions remain unchanged tax wise as the franking credit is also reduced dollar for dollar.

Only for those who actually received these generous tax credits. Foreign shareholders don't receive them. The net effect will be an increase in the money sent offshore.

True enough but the devil is in the detail. A savvy foreign investor simply sells the shares pre-dividend and repurchases them ex-dividend pocketing the difference.


The only way to restore fairness to the corporate taxation system is to scrap dividend imputation. It was a sensible idea when the corporate tax rate was 49% of taxable profits but it's now just a handbrake on lowering company taxes. Most countries don't have such a system and it's keeping our company taxes high. Scrapping that can raise enough funds to make a 25% company tax rate affordable without deepening the Budget deficit.


There nothing unfair about the imputation system. It treats all income as income. Other nations have different systems in place but almost all of them have some sort of favourable treatment to avoid double taxation of income. The US even has concessions for residents earning foreign income.

Ending imputation will just simply diminish local investment. With a perpetual current account deficit that's just about the last thing we need.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #60 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:26pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:37pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:32am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.


Could you explain how a cut to the corporate tax rate benefits only wealthy people.


You are absolutely correct the big benefits go to pensioners who own corporations and the unemployed owners of companies ???


So does the population consist of only wealthy people, pensioners and the unemployed ?

A cut to the corporate tax rate is also a cut to the imputed credit. The tax payed by the shareholder doesn't change one iota. So how does the proposed tax cut affect only wealthy people.


The tax payed by the shareholder doesn't change one iota.


it isn't only shareholders but if the tax is reduced the effective profit is increased. The share holder may pay the same tax but the company hopefully will have more in the profit column after management bonuses and be positioned to pay a larger fully franked dividend.

if your assertion that increasing profitability via tax reduction has no impact on share holders then it would be true that profitability is pointless.

Not all companies have share holders

So does the population consist of only wealthy people, pensioners and the unemployed ?


I firmly believe that you are close to smart enough to eventually work that one out for yourself.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #61 - Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:32pm
 
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


The GST is a tax ???

You don't cut tax rates by increasing tax ???

In fact you collect more tax from the GST and in effect have increased taxation.

You also put even more eggs into the basket that relies on economic activity to drive its funding model.

During the GFC it was the reduced GST take that really rocked us and blew out the deficit.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #62 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:17pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm:
There nothing unfair about the imputation system. It treats all income as income. Other nations have different systems in place but almost all of them have some sort of favourable treatment to avoid double taxation of income. The US even has concessions for residents earning foreign income.

The "double taxation" argument is a load of rubbish. If avoiding double taxation was a general principle, the GST would not exist. GST is paid with after-tax income, and PAYE taxpayers are not allowed to claim GST tax credits. The GST is double taxation by design, very deliberately so.

A fair system would not have the double standards of double taxation for consumption and no double taxation for share dividends. If you really want a fair system, either we scrap all double taxation and abolish the GST, or we allow double taxation in all circumstances and scrap dividend imputation.


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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #63 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:19pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm:
Ending imputation will just simply diminish local investment.

There is no evidence to support this. It all has to do with what the funds are spent on. If the abolishing of dividend imputation was used to fund a cut to the company tax rate, the effect on investment would be minimal, if any at all.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #64 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:57pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:56am:
Just for your edification see both the gross and net debt positions on the government ledger.

https://aphweblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/f8d4f-chart2june2013.jpg


Note that medium term gross debt is around the levels of the mid '90s. However, net debt is much lower. That is, there is also a lot more income to balance the outflow and it's falling. For fukk sake, it's not even at historical highs. Your chicken little comments are unfounded. The present debt levels, in the current circumstances are about right. Any moves to surplus in this situation will only escalate debt in the private sector. About the last thing we need right now.

For the last time, buy a fukking text book.


crocodile's graph

...



Your graph shows debt in 2017 as 10% of GDP.
It's a lie.
Our GDP is $1200 billion.
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/gdp

That would make our debt only $120 billion
It's not - it's nearly $600 billion.

see
http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


Crocodile - you're a liar and you have used obscenities against me.

Now apologise.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #65 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 7:47pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


croc-o-shite will tell you that there is no net benefit to anyone who uses negative gearing on property but still wants to keep it just the same Wink
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #66 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 7:49pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:34am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:14am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:10am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 6:08am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 5:56am:
Get back to us when you find a national income clock as well. simply looking at gross debt in isolation is foolish but that's already been pointed out to you.



Be an ostrich then.

http://danoday.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PDHeadInSand.gif


Sorry Sonny Boy, you're the ostrich. Looking at only a quarter of the data is not too bright.



Show me the national income clock.


You're the one that likes fancy, irrelevant clocks. Go find it yourself. While you're at it, how about the value of the assets purchased with debt. Forget about that one did you.

Now stop wasting everybody's time and go and buy a decent textbook. After that you may at least have a clue how economies and finance actually works.


what you mean non productive assets like property ?? I am sure they will create real wealth just by doing nothing Cheesy LOL
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #67 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:14pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 7:47pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


croc-o-shite will tell you that there is no net benefit to anyone who uses negative gearing on property but still wants to keep it just the same Wink



croc has tried to make out our debt is only $120 billion -  what a liar.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #68 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:37pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:57pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:56am:
Just for your edification see both the gross and net debt positions on the government ledger.

https://aphweblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/f8d4f-chart2june2013.jpg


Note that medium term gross debt is around the levels of the mid '90s. However, net debt is much lower. That is, there is also a lot more income to balance the outflow and it's falling. For fukk sake, it's not even at historical highs. Your chicken little comments are unfounded. The present debt levels, in the current circumstances are about right. Any moves to surplus in this situation will only escalate debt in the private sector. About the last thing we need right now.

For the last time, buy a fukking text book.


crocodile's graph

https://aphweblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/f8d4f-chart2june2013.jpg



Your graph shows debt in 2017 as 10% of GDP.
It's a lie.
Our GDP is $1200 billion.
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/gdp

You are a goose of the highest order. The GDP figure you plucked is in US dollars


That would make our debt only $120 billion
It's not - it's nearly $600 billion.

You still don't get it. You're confusing net figures with gross figures. Gross figures aren't too useful. Like looking at only the liability side of a balance sheet only. It's already been explained to you numerous times


see
http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Australiandebtclock, what a laugh. I prefer the budget papers.
http://www.budget.gov.au/2017-18/content/bp1/download/bp1.pdf


Crocodile - you're a liar and you have used obscenities against me.

No, you just can't read a chart.


Now apologise.


Are you serious ?


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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #69 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 7:47pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


croc-o-shite will tell you that there is no net benefit to anyone who uses negative gearing on property but still wants to keep it just the same Wink


You're as tiresome as Bobby. I never said that there was no benefit. I said that the end point, tax wise is exactly the same. You're confused. No surprises there.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #70 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:44pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:17pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm:
There nothing unfair about the imputation system. It treats all income as income. Other nations have different systems in place but almost all of them have some sort of favourable treatment to avoid double taxation of income. The US even has concessions for residents earning foreign income.

The "double taxation" argument is a load of rubbish. If avoiding double taxation was a general principle, the GST would not exist. GST is paid with after-tax income, and PAYE taxpayers are not allowed to claim GST tax credits. The GST is double taxation by design, very deliberately so.

A fair system would not have the double standards of double taxation for consumption and no double taxation for share dividends. If you really want a fair system, either we scrap all double taxation and abolish the GST, or we allow double taxation in all circumstances and scrap dividend imputation.




I did say double taxation of income. GST is a consumption tax. Just like road tolls, council rates, licence fees and a plethora of others.

You can bleat about it as much as you want. I just don't happen to agree with you. Income is income.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #71 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:46pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:19pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm:
Ending imputation will just simply diminish local investment.

There is no evidence to support this. It all has to do with what the funds are spent on. If the abolishing of dividend imputation was used to fund a cut to the company tax rate, the effect on investment would be minimal, if any at all.


Sure Bam. Return on investment has no impact on the investment itself. I'll keep it in mind.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #72 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm
 
Quote:
Now apologise.



Quote:
Are you serious ?


Yes - apologise.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #73 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:54pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:26pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:37pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:32am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 20th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
This government are obscene, the money they have raped from education health superannuation pensions the unemployed and the disabled just so they can throw money at their wealthy business mates that don't even need it is disgusting.


Could you explain how a cut to the corporate tax rate benefits only wealthy people.


You are absolutely correct the big benefits go to pensioners who own corporations and the unemployed owners of companies ???


So does the population consist of only wealthy people, pensioners and the unemployed ?

A cut to the corporate tax rate is also a cut to the imputed credit. The tax payed by the shareholder doesn't change one iota. So how does the proposed tax cut affect only wealthy people.


The tax payed by the shareholder doesn't change one iota.


it isn't only shareholders but if the tax is reduced the effective profit is increased. The share holder may pay the same tax but the company hopefully will have more in the profit column after management bonuses and be positioned to pay a larger fully franked dividend.

That's the whole point. However, the rate of tax is unchanged. There is a larger pot for distributions but also for retained earnings. This is what drives productivity.


if your assertion that increasing profitability via tax reduction has no impact on share holders then it would be true that profitability is pointless.

I didn't quite say that. Reduction of tax only affects government revenue for the retained earnings portion. The remainder is paid by the shareholder up to their personal marginal rate with a reduced franking credit.


Not all companies have share holders

Australian companies at least must have a minimum of one shareholder.

So does the population consist of only wealthy people, pensioners and the unemployed ?


I firmly believe that you are close to smart enough to eventually work that one out for yourself.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #74 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:57pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Quote:
Now apologise.



Quote:
Are you serious ?


Yes - apologise.


You haven't exactly been diplomatic yourself.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #75 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:04pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:57pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Quote:
Now apologise.


Quote:
Are you serious ?


Yes - apologise.


You haven't exactly been diplomatic yourself.





Croc of ****,

Our debt is close to A$600 billion.

Even if you convert US$120 billion to $A it = A$158 billion.

That means your graph is nonsense.
Also - that Govt. debt is small compared to all the other debts.

We are drowning in debt & you sound like a politician in parliament
who can massage any number to make it sound good.

You're a liar & a fake -
I'm not buying your story.
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

Now apologise.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #76 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
*
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #77 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #78 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:17pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:04pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:57pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Quote:
Now apologise.


Quote:
Are you serious ?


Yes - apologise.


You haven't exactly been diplomatic yourself.





Croc of ****,

Our debt is close to A$600 billion.

Even if you convert US$120 billion to $A it = A$158 billion.

What's up Bobby. Still having trouble distinguishing the difference between gross and net debt.


That means your graph is nonsense.
Also - that Govt. debt is small compared to all the other debts.

We are drowning in debt & you sound like a politician in parliament
who can massage any number to make it sound good.

You're carrying on as though the income side of the balance sheet doesn't exist.


You're a liar & a fake -

No, you just don't understand government finance


I'm not buying your story.

I don't care


If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

Now apologise.

What's up. Can't you take some of your own.


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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #79 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #80 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:23pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.


Of course they can. Do you think that the gummint has no income.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #81 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:52pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 7:47pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:04am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 7:39am:
................ I only see that we're going more & more into debt every day.

To be honest if I was PM I suppose I'd do the same -
I wouldn't want our economy to collapse under my watch.



yes, I see the enormous debt rising inexorably.

To think, less than a decade ago we had no debt and money in the bank.



We're doomed because of smoke & mirror people like "crocodile"


croc-o-shite will tell you that there is no net benefit to anyone who uses negative gearing on property but still wants to keep it just the same Wink


You're as tiresome as Bobby. I never said that there was no benefit. I said that the end point, tax wise is exactly the same. You're confused. No surprises there.


taxwise exactly the same so lets keep it anyway. Why am I not surprised that you still want to keep it Wink
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #82 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 10:12am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:44pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 5:17pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 8:10pm:
There nothing unfair about the imputation system. It treats all income as income. Other nations have different systems in place but almost all of them have some sort of favourable treatment to avoid double taxation of income. The US even has concessions for residents earning foreign income.

The "double taxation" argument is a load of rubbish. If avoiding double taxation was a general principle, the GST would not exist. GST is paid with after-tax income, and PAYE taxpayers are not allowed to claim GST tax credits. The GST is double taxation by design, very deliberately so.

A fair system would not have the double standards of double taxation for consumption and no double taxation for share dividends. If you really want a fair system, either we scrap all double taxation and abolish the GST, or we allow double taxation in all circumstances and scrap dividend imputation.




I did say double taxation of income. GST is a consumption tax. Just like road tolls, council rates, licence fees and a plethora of others.

You can bleat about it as much as you want. I just don't happen to agree with you. Income is income.

You're arguing semantics to avoid discussing an obvious weakness in your argument. You can deny or avoid the point all you want. What I said is true: the GST is double taxation by design because GST is paid for out of income that has already been taxed and deductions for GST are disallowed against income tax.

Consumption taxes are a dead weight on the economy because they discourage spending. Look what happened when the GST was introduced in 2000: the Australian economy almost went into technical recession with a quarter of negative growth and a quarter of zero growth. It only escaped a technical recession because technical recessions don't take population growth into account.

It is not an efficient tax, and it is unstable in the long term because it accelerates the wealth divide by taxing earned income (income from work) more than unearned income (economic rents, share dividends and the like). Taking money off people who spend it to give to people who don't can only take money out of the economy. The Paradise Papers are an eloquent argument against giving more unearned money to the wealthy.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #83 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:07am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.


Don't forget the mix of other spending, bobby - cherry-picking pensioners and public servants is not the way to go unless you are an ideologue.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #84 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #85 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:07pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 10:12am:
You're arguing semantics to avoid discussing an obvious weakness in your argument. You can deny or avoid the point all you want. What I said is true: the GST is double taxation by design because GST is paid for out of income that has already been taxed and deductions for GST are disallowed against income tax.


There are no semantics. I was specific about double taxation of income right from the outset. You're the one that brought up the GST angle. The GST was introduced with substantial cuts to income tax as well as the tax free threshold. Since then, income taxes have gone down mostly and not the other way. I'll accept that indirect taxes have increased though.

Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 10:12am:
Consumption taxes are a dead weight on the economy because they discourage spending. Look what happened when the GST was introduced in 2000: the Australian economy almost went into technical recession with a quarter of negative growth and a quarter of zero growth. It only escaped a technical recession because technical recessions don't take population growth into account.

It is not an efficient tax, and it is unstable in the long term because it accelerates the wealth divide by taxing earned income (income from work) more than unearned income (economic rents, share dividends and the like). Taking money off people who spend it to give to people who don't can only take money out of the economy. The Paradise Papers are an eloquent argument against giving more unearned money to the wealthy.


Now you're just making stuff up. GST is one of the most efficient taxes in this country with a deadweight loss of only around 8c in the dollar as opposed to the 40c in the dollar for corporate taxes and 24c in the dollar for labour income tax.

...

Further information regarding the efficiencies of various local taxes and the reasons can be found in the treasury tax reviews. You'd do well to read the entire 178 pages.

https://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/html/commissioned_work/downloads/KPMG_...
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #86 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #87 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #88 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.


With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #89 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 3:19pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.



And no Govt. wants to stop that tax -

it's an extra unseen tax on every worker -
it's money that they can't be paid.

Jobs n growth - or so they say.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #90 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:01pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.


With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.

I am also opposed in principle to payroll taxes. They are a tax on jobs and they increase compliance costs due to the different rates of taxation.

This is why I have proposed turnover taxes on businesses several times - as an alternative way of raising taxes from businesses so payroll taxes and certain other taxes on businesses can be eliminated, and taxes on profits can be lowered.

* Abolish payroll taxes
* Abolish dividend imputation
* Remove GST exemption from all imports to combat transfer pricing
* Turnover tax of 1% with proceeds to be given to the states on a strict per-capita basis
* Review corporate tax deductions and eliminate those that encourage waste
* Lower company taxes on profits to between 15% and 25% (exact level to be chosen so the package of measures are revenue neutral overall)

Gains to business:
* Profitable businesses gain a competitive edge in the market
* Broader corporate tax base
* Lower business compliance costs
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #91 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:24pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:07pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 10:12am:
You're arguing semantics to avoid discussing an obvious weakness in your argument. You can deny or avoid the point all you want. What I said is true: the GST is double taxation by design because GST is paid for out of income that has already been taxed and deductions for GST are disallowed against income tax.


There are no semantics. I was specific about double taxation of income right from the outset. You're the one that brought up the GST angle. The GST was introduced with substantial cuts to income tax as well as the tax free threshold. Since then, income taxes have gone down mostly and not the other way. I'll accept that indirect taxes have increased though.

Your claim that the tax free threshold was increased when the GST was introduced is specious because it is the only time the Howard government increased this threshold, and by only $400 - or $8 a week. Big deal. That is the only time in the past 30 years that a conservative government has increased the tax free threshold. The only Coalition government that consistently increased it was the Fraser government. If it wasn't for the Fraser government's increases, the 2000 increase (of 11%) by Howard would have been the only increase to the tax free threshold by Coalition governments in the past 70 years.

Tax free threshold
1950–51: £100 ($200)
1974–75: $1,000
1975–76: $2,000
1976–77: $2,260
1977–78: $2,506
1978–89: $3,893
1980–81: $4,041
1981–82: $4,195
1983–84: $4,595
1986–87: $4,890
1987–88: $5,100
1990–91: $5,250
1991–92: $5,400
2000–01: $6,000
2012–13: $18,200 - this increase restored the purchasing power of the TFT to roughly what it was in 1983.

We need to index all income tax brackets to inflation to end the insidious evil of bracket creep.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #92 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:24pm
 
page flip
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #93 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:34pm
 
Quote:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts


Say's it all really, not even company CEO's believe that it is sensible or affordable.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #94 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 10:35pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 3:19pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.



And no Govt. wants to stop that tax -

No they don't do they. They are state based taxes. It's really a victim of the system. The states don't have many efficient means of raising revenue and must go cap in hand like Oliver Twist to Canberra with their begging bowls. Yet it is the states that are charged with delivering the bulk of the services. This is why we have these silly taxes.


it's an extra unseen tax on every worker -

So is corporate tax. Payroll tax is particularly galling since it is levied even when a loss is made.


it's money that they can't be paid.

Not only money that can't be paid ( more on that later ) but the impact of the high deadweight losses needs to be considered.


Jobs n growth - or so they say.


The point regarding money that can't be paid requires some scrutiny. Firstly, wages growth, in general does not track profit. Corporations make healthy profits at times but the growth in wages is not due to benevolent bosses.

Wages growth, over time tracks productivity growth. Productivity growth is attained via investment in capital stock and technology. Naturally, as technological progress is achieved so too is the required skills of the workforce. Higher skills translate to higher wages. This is the mechanism as to why productivity drives wages.

Less retained earnings means less available capital and therefore lower productivity. As an illustration, observe the historical trend between labour productivity and wages per hour worked.

...

The distortion around the mid '70s is primarily due to the very high inflation at the time. The dip post 2000 is a bit more sinister. The above chart tracks only labour productivity. Productivity, or more correctly, Total Factor Productivity also has a capital component. Unfortunately, capital productivity has been falling steadily since the start of the century and has now hit negative territory.

...

Bear in mind that labour productivity is still growing so firms are still willing to invest. It simply means that each increment of labour productivity is chewing up larger and larger chunks of capital. The result of this is slow wages growth and a loss of industries that cannot match the productivity gains of competitor nations.

Corporate taxes are a tax on productivity gains and therefore a tax on real wages growth. The notion that it is only a tax on wealthy business owners and shareholders is a myth.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #95 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 10:41pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:34pm:
Quote:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts


Say's it all really, not even company CEO's believe that it is sensible or affordable.


So enlighten us all. Where is the reference to the CEOs' dismissal of the proposed tax cuts.

P.S. In your case CEOs ( without the apostrophe )

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #96 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 10:44pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:07pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 10:12am:
You're arguing semantics to avoid discussing an obvious weakness in your argument. You can deny or avoid the point all you want. What I said is true: the GST is double taxation by design because GST is paid for out of income that has already been taxed and deductions for GST are disallowed against income tax.


There are no semantics. I was specific about double taxation of income right from the outset. You're the one that brought up the GST angle. The GST was introduced with substantial cuts to income tax as well as the tax free threshold. Since then, income taxes have gone down mostly and not the other way. I'll accept that indirect taxes have increased though.

Your claim that the tax free threshold was increased when the GST was introduced is specious because it is the only time the Howard government increased this threshold, and by only $400 - or $8 a week. Big deal. That is the only time in the past 30 years that a conservative government has increased the tax free threshold. The only Coalition government that consistently increased it was the Fraser government. If it wasn't for the Fraser government's increases, the 2000 increase (of 11%) by Howard would have been the only increase to the tax free threshold by Coalition governments in the past 70 years.

Tax free threshold
1950–51: £100 ($200)
1974–75: $1,000
1975–76: $2,000
1976–77: $2,260
1977–78: $2,506
1978–89: $3,893
1980–81: $4,041
1981–82: $4,195
1983–84: $4,595
1986–87: $4,890
1987–88: $5,100
1990–91: $5,250
1991–92: $5,400
2000–01: $6,000
2012–13: $18,200 - this increase restored the purchasing power of the TFT to roughly what it was in 1983.

We need to index all income tax brackets to inflation to end the insidious evil of bracket creep.


No argument there. Fraser introduced indexation when inflation was mad. It should have stayed. Unfortunately, Treasurers and Finance ministers are too enraptured by them.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #97 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 11:14pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:01pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.


With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.

I am also opposed in principle to payroll taxes. They are a tax on jobs and they increase compliance costs due to the different rates of taxation.

This is why I have proposed turnover taxes on businesses several times - as an alternative way of raising taxes from businesses so payroll taxes and certain other taxes on businesses can be eliminated, and taxes on profits can be lowered.

* Abolish payroll taxes
* Abolish dividend imputation
* Remove GST exemption from all imports to combat transfer pricing
* Turnover tax of 1% with proceeds to be given to the states on a strict per-capita basis
* Review corporate tax deductions and eliminate those that encourage waste
* Lower company taxes on profits to between 15% and 25% (exact level to be chosen so the package of measures are revenue neutral overall)

Gains to business:
* Profitable businesses gain a competitive edge in the market
* Broader corporate tax base
* Lower business compliance costs


Yes, you have too. History is not very favourable to this method.

These taxes are known as cascade taxes and were popular in Europe over a century ago. For large corporations like Woolies the answer is simple. Vertically integrate back along the supply chain buying up all the suppliers or creating their own units so that the tax is paid only once.

Meanwhile, smaller businesses without the resources to do likewise are forced out of business and government revenue collapses.

It was for this reason that the European nations replaced it with VAT.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #98 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 6:09am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Quote:
Now apologise.



Quote:
Are you serious ?


Yes - apologise.


I'm Sorry ??

What for ??
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #99 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 6:23am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:34pm:
Quote:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts


Say's it all really, not even company CEO's believe that it is sensible or affordable.


So enlighten us all. Where is the reference to the CEOs' dismissal of the proposed tax cuts.

P.S. In your case CEOs ( without the apostrophe )



Why else would Scotty have to come out asking for support from CEO's ?

There is no real argument to support it and the words that the government are using are particularly poor.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #100 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 9:08pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 6:23am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:34pm:
Quote:
Sydney Morning Herald
November 20 2017

Scott Morrison urges company CEOs to support government's tax cuts


Say's it all really, not even company CEO's believe that it is sensible or affordable.


So enlighten us all. Where is the reference to the CEOs' dismissal of the proposed tax cuts.

P.S. In your case CEOs ( without the apostrophe )



Why else would Scotty have to come out asking for support from CEO's ?

There is no real argument to support it and the words that the government are using are particularly poor.


A fairly routine Dna response. Cynical and without substantiation. Merely an offer of personal opinion.

Are you really suggesting that tax rates have no impact on investment decisions, especially in the face of falling yields.

Even our own treasury do not agree with you.

https://treasury.gov.au/publication/business-tax-working-group-final-report/busi...

The effects of corporate taxes and the impacts on productivity have been studied for decades with the same conclusions. In no less than 42 countries to boot.

http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/JAT/article-full-text-pdf/1F941571048

Stay in denial mode for as long as you wish. just don't whinge while wages remain stagnant and the ongoing attrition of our industries continues.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #101 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:17am
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 11:14pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:01pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.


With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.

I am also opposed in principle to payroll taxes. They are a tax on jobs and they increase compliance costs due to the different rates of taxation.

This is why I have proposed turnover taxes on businesses several times - as an alternative way of raising taxes from businesses so payroll taxes and certain other taxes on businesses can be eliminated, and taxes on profits can be lowered.

* Abolish payroll taxes
* Abolish dividend imputation
* Remove GST exemption from all imports to combat transfer pricing
* Turnover tax of 1% with proceeds to be given to the states on a strict per-capita basis
* Review corporate tax deductions and eliminate those that encourage waste
* Lower company taxes on profits to between 15% and 25% (exact level to be chosen so the package of measures are revenue neutral overall)

Gains to business:
* Profitable businesses gain a competitive edge in the market
* Broader corporate tax base
* Lower business compliance costs


Yes, you have too. History is not very favourable to this method.

These taxes are known as cascade taxes and were popular in Europe over a century ago. For large corporations like Woolies the answer is simple. Vertically integrate back along the supply chain buying up all the suppliers or creating their own units so that the tax is paid only once.

Meanwhile, smaller businesses without the resources to do likewise are forced out of business and government revenue collapses.

It was for this reason that the European nations replaced it with VAT.

No. Taxes like the GST or VAT were introduced because it's more attractive to businesses to shift the burden of taxation onto workers, and businesses can afford to pay lobbyists a lot more than workers can. The actual benefits are specious. They are highly regressive taxes that accelerate the wealth divide because they take a higher percentage of the income of workers than it does the incomes of wealthy people.

Notice how loudly the business owners wailed about "double taxation" when these consumption taxes are always paid for out of the income of workers after income taxes were taken out. Better to tax the workers twice than tax the businesses even once, eh!

As for the possible problems you point out regarding paying the taxes more than once, the solution is simple and obvious - allow turnover taxes on business inputs to be counted as turnover tax paid down the supply chain. If it works for the GST, why can't it work for a turnover tax?

Remember that the point of introducing these taxes would be to replace or reduce other taxes that businesses pay, not to add to them. A 1% to 2% turnover tax replacing payroll taxes and certain other taxes would produce savings through lower compliance costs. Even a 2% turnover tax would be a much, much better deal for businesses than the massive 30% slug on gross income that workers on average incomes typically pay on their incomes, and with fewer allowable deductions.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #102 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:33am
 
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:17am:
crocodile wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 11:14pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 25th, 2017 at 2:01pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
If it wasn't for borrowing money the Govt.
couldn't pay the pensioners or the public servants & you know it.

You need to understand how the modern monetary system works.

The government does not actually borrow money. It creates money by spending, and destroys money by taxing. Taxation is necessary as a means to control the size of the money supply and to keep inflation under control.

Modern Monetary Theory is an unconventional take on economic strategy


MMT hasn't quite got a strong foothold yet. As a means of explaining cash flows it's actually quite good. The rest is just a pipe dream at least in my lifetime. Bear in mind that there is very little functional difference in tightening the money supply by taxation or by the sale government securities.




OK professor Crocodile,
you seem to have a seep understanding of economics -

how many jobs are lost due to Payroll Tax?

Taxing companies that hire people.


With a dead weight loss of around 41c in the dollar it should become obvious. Worse is the distortionary effects as not all companies pay it. Effectively, it is a tax on labour. It is a tax on productivity growth since retained earnings are lowered and as a consequence so to is the available capital per worker. Over time it means slower wages growth as productivity slows.

I am also opposed in principle to payroll taxes. They are a tax on jobs and they increase compliance costs due to the different rates of taxation.

This is why I have proposed turnover taxes on businesses several times - as an alternative way of raising taxes from businesses so payroll taxes and certain other taxes on businesses can be eliminated, and taxes on profits can be lowered.

* Abolish payroll taxes
* Abolish dividend imputation
* Remove GST exemption from all imports to combat transfer pricing
* Turnover tax of 1% with proceeds to be given to the states on a strict per-capita basis
* Review corporate tax deductions and eliminate those that encourage waste
* Lower company taxes on profits to between 15% and 25% (exact level to be chosen so the package of measures are revenue neutral overall)

Gains to business:
* Profitable businesses gain a competitive edge in the market
* Broader corporate tax base
* Lower business compliance costs


Yes, you have too. History is not very favourable to this method.

These taxes are known as cascade taxes and were popular in Europe over a century ago. For large corporations like Woolies the answer is simple. Vertically integrate back along the supply chain buying up all the suppliers or creating their own units so that the tax is paid only once.

Meanwhile, smaller businesses without the resources to do likewise are forced out of business and government revenue collapses.

It was for this reason that the European nations replaced it with VAT.

No. Taxes like the GST or VAT were introduced because it's more attractive to businesses to shift the burden of taxation onto workers, and businesses can afford to pay lobbyists a lot more than workers can. The actual benefits are specious. They are highly regressive taxes that accelerate the wealth divide because they take a higher percentage of the income of workers than it does the incomes of wealthy people.

Notice how loudly the business owners wailed about "double taxation" when these consumption taxes are always paid for out of the income of workers after income taxes were taken out. Better to tax the workers twice than tax the businesses even once, eh!

As for the possible problems you point out regarding paying the taxes more than once, the solution is simple and obvious - allow turnover taxes on business inputs to be counted as turnover tax paid down the supply chain. If it works for the GST, why can't it work for a turnover tax?

Remember that the point of introducing these taxes would be to replace or reduce other taxes that businesses pay, not to add to them. A 1% to 2% turnover tax replacing payroll taxes and certain other taxes would produce savings through lower compliance costs. Even a 2% turnover tax would be a much, much better deal for businesses than the massive 30% slug on gross income that workers on average incomes typically pay on their incomes, and with fewer allowable deductions.


I suggest you do a little research on the history of cascade taxes.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #103 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:47am
 
"the government does everything for me "   says fat steve with a smile on his face.

well, thats not so good.

because it means you cant do anything for yourself.

yes, we should cut taxes and we should be doing far far less for people.

the correct way to treat people is to make them do absolutely everything they can do for themselves , so you arent robbing them of their independance
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #104 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:01am
 
Bam, a better description of the pitfalls of cascading taxes.

https://www.prosper.org.au/2005/11/07/critique-of-the-debits-tax-and-turnover-ta...

The vertical integration angle is real and is precisely what the competition watchdogs want to avoid. Maybe lazy just pulling someone else's writing but I don't feel like writing an essay. Especially about something that has been tried before with disastrous results and subsequently abandoned. There are good reasons for not going down this path again.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #105 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:05am
 
aquascoot wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:47am:
"the government does everything for me "   says fat steve with a smile on his face.

well, thats not so good.

because it means you cant do anything for yourself.

yes, we should cut taxes and we should be doing far far less for people.

the correct way to treat people is to make them do absolutely everything they can do for themselves , so you arent robbing them of their independance


Unfortunately Scoot, Taxes do more than just provide a free life for Fat Steve. The Fat Steves are in the minority. Unless of course you are suggesting that we, as individuals, provide our own military, infrastructure and feed the pensioners.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #106 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 3:17pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:01am:
Bam, a better description of the pitfalls of cascading taxes.

https://www.prosper.org.au/2005/11/07/critique-of-the-debits-tax-and-turnover-ta...

The vertical integration angle is real and is precisely what the competition watchdogs want to avoid. Maybe lazy just pulling someone else's writing but I don't feel like writing an essay. Especially about something that has been tried before with disastrous results and subsequently abandoned. There are good reasons for not going down this path again.

Don't worry. Links are fine. At least you provide them.

However, it's best not to rely on links from only one source. It could be biased.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #107 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 3:27pm
 
Turnover tax is a part of the South African taxation system where small businesses with turnover less than 1 million Rand can choose this taxation model. Small businesses which opt for the turnover taxes are exempt from VAT and other taxes.

Turnover tax as described on the SARS (South African Revenue Service) website here (www.sars.gov.za):
Quote:
Turnover Tax

What is it?

Turnover tax is a simplified system aimed at making it easier for micro business to meet their tax obligations. The turnover tax system replaces Income Tax, VAT, Provisional Tax, Capital Gains Tax and Dividends Tax for micro businesses with a qualifying annual turnover of R 1 million or less. A micro business that is registered for turnover tax can, however, elect to remain in the VAT system (from 1 March 2012).

Tax rates:

R 0 - R 335,000 ... 0%​
R 335,001 - R 500,000 ... R 1% of each R 1 above R 335,000
R 500,001 - R 750,000 ... R 1,650 + 2% of the amount above R 500,000
R 750,001 and above ... R 6,650 + 3% of the amount above R 750,000

See how it replaces other taxes?
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #108 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
Do you think the Govt is more supportive of Small Business or does it just focus on Big Business??
If so - is there a difference between the ALP & NLP?

Paul Kelly "From little things, big things grow."

Or is the Govt frustrated that people remain as small, tightly compact businesses and not evolve into big ones with greater over-heads and an answer to the Govt's employment statistic?
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #109 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:10pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Turnover tax is a part of the South African taxation system where small businesses with turnover less than 1 million Rand can choose this taxation model. Small businesses which opt for the turnover taxes are exempt from VAT and other taxes.

Turnover tax as described on the SARS (South African Revenue Service) website here (www.sars.gov.za):
Quote:
Turnover Tax

What is it?

Turnover tax is a simplified system aimed at making it easier for micro business to meet their tax obligations. The turnover tax system replaces Income Tax, VAT, Provisional Tax, Capital Gains Tax and Dividends Tax for micro businesses with a qualifying annual turnover of R 1 million or less. A micro business that is registered for turnover tax can, however, elect to remain in the VAT system (from 1 March 2012).

Tax rates:

R 0 - R 335,000 ... 0%​
R 335,001 - R 500,000 ... R 1% of each R 1 above R 335,000
R 500,001 - R 750,000 ... R 1,650 + 2% of the amount above R 500,000
R 750,001 and above ... R 6,650 + 3% of the amount above R 750,000

See how it replaces other taxes?


It highlights my point. These smaller businesses do not have the capacity to vertically integrate. Larger organisations do. You will find that this is the reason why it applies only to smaller entities.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #110 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:18pm
 
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #111 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:28pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:04pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 8:15pm:
It is what the government is spending the money on that is unaffordable. They will have to spend less. It really is that simple.


That is axiomatic. However, the long term downward trend in total factor productivity is a far greater problem. No productivity = No wages growth. Taxing retained earnings is pretty dumb.

Consumption taxes are worse. These are regressive taxes designed to take a far greater percentage of the income of workers than the wealthy.

The worst of all are the private taxes such as toll roads. Whoever thought it was a good idea to pander to these rent seekers should be taken out the back and shot.

Both of these are drivers of wealth inequality.


Consumption taxes are actually fairer than income taxes, if done correctly. For e.g. I'd be in favour of scaling consumption taxes on luxury goods only. This would affect only the rich, and the more they spend, the more tax they pay.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #112 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:33pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 22nd, 2017 at 11:34am:
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 10:29pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm:
miketrees wrote on Nov 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm:
A 15% GST would solve a lot of our problems.

We could cut tax rates then.


And create other problems along the way. Particularly with lower income earners.

Better to attack our ridiculously high EMTRs.


We could significantly increase the number of low income earners that pay no income tax at all. As an added bonus it would shift the burden of bureaucracy off them.


Yeah - make em all part-time casual, raise the costs of living way beyond their wildest dreams, give them no hope for any future, and if any dissent they can always go on the non-dole.


And if people weren't making stupid choices like having three kids on a minimum-wage, then maybe we'd have less poverty without having to increase the minimum wage and decrease productivity.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #113 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:43pm
 
Crocodile, I would like to ask you a question:

What is your view on a Federal minimum wage?

There are 3 ways to deal with this issue, in my view:

1) have a Federal minimum wage, and that it;

2) have a Federal minimum wage, but allow States to increase it according to local conditions (but they cannot reduce it);

3) abolish a Federal minimum wage, and let the States set minimum wage rates (in practice, no State would cut the current minimum wage, so it would be a matter of how much the State increases the future minimum wage).
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #114 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:08pm
 
Jasin wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
Do you think the Govt is more supportive of Small Business or does it just focus on Big Business??
If so - is there a difference between the ALP & NLP?

Paul Kelly "From little things, big things grow."

Or is the Govt frustrated that people remain as small, tightly compact businesses and not evolve into big ones with greater over-heads and an answer to the Govt's employment statistic?


I don't see that they favour one over the other. Large organisations face a bit more regulation via foreign investment and competition rules. Add foreign ownership to the mix and it gets complicated. Basically, they need all of them.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #115 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:12pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:18pm:


Just a proposal. Doubt that it will ever see the light of day. So Bam Pty Ltd sells automatic ball stroking machines to Spain while domiciled in Australia. How do you propose that the Spaniards get Bam Pty Ltd to cough up turnover tax when he also sells goods everywhere else.

It will end up just being a consumers' consumption tax.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #116 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:48pm
 
Auggie wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:43pm:
Crocodile, I would like to ask you a question:

What is your view on a Federal minimum wage?

There are 3 ways to deal with this issue, in my view:

1) have a Federal minimum wage, and that it;

2) have a Federal minimum wage, but allow States to increase it according to local conditions (but they cannot reduce it);

3) abolish a Federal minimum wage, and let the States set minimum wage rates (in practice, no State would cut the current minimum wage, so it would be a matter of how much the State increases the future minimum wage).


The question is far too complex for a blog. It deserves research, modelling and copious amounts of data.

Intuitively, in a perfect market it is not required. Bad luck that the market is imperfect. Consider the following points just off the top of my head.

1. Minimum wages affect only the labour component with the smallest skills and lowest demand. Abolition will affect only this demographic.

2. It adds to unemployment if the minimum is set above the market clearance rate. Forget the rhetoric from the naysayers. It is not easy to determine what the clearance rate is at any point in time, job type or location. Those whose wages are already above the clearance rate due to demand will be unaffected by a minimum wage.

3. Despite the above, Abolition of minimum wages also disincentivises firms from accelerating the rate of labour productivity. Substitution of capital for labour is a threat while wages can be pushed below the cost of technological acquisition.

4. The RBA uses the inflation rate to target the size of the money supply. As unemployment drifts lower, inflation will pick up causing the money supply to tighten in response. The price for stable inflation is a small pool of unemployed people.

There are pros and cons for both. I've certainly missed a few points. Without copious research and resources and just relying on intuition I suspect that as it stands today the impact of minimum wages is generally benign in this country. I understand that many will argue that it may lock out some unemployed but on the same token the substation effect with productivity is more problematic.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #117 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:10pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Auggie wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:43pm:
Crocodile, I would like to ask you a question:

What is your view on a Federal minimum wage?

There are 3 ways to deal with this issue, in my view:

1) have a Federal minimum wage, and that it;

2) have a Federal minimum wage, but allow States to increase it according to local conditions (but they cannot reduce it);

3) abolish a Federal minimum wage, and let the States set minimum wage rates (in practice, no State would cut the current minimum wage, so it would be a matter of how much the State increases the future minimum wage).


The question is far too complex for a blog. It deserves research, modelling and copious amounts of data.

Intuitively, in a perfect market it is not required. Bad luck that the market is imperfect. Consider the following points just off the top of my head.

1. Minimum wages affect only the labour component with the smallest skills and lowest demand. Abolition will affect only this demographic.

2. It adds to unemployment if the minimum is set above the market clearance rate. Forget the rhetoric from the naysayers. It is not easy to determine what the clearance rate is at any point in time, job type or location. Those whose wages are already above the clearance rate due to demand will be unaffected by a minimum wage.

3. Despite the above, Abolition of minimum wages also disincentivises firms from accelerating the rate of labour productivity. Substitution of capital for labour is a threat while wages can be pushed below the cost of technological acquisition.

4. The RBA uses the inflation rate to target the size of the money supply. As unemployment drifts lower, inflation will pick up causing the money supply to tighten in response. The price for stable inflation is a small pool of unemployed people.

There are pros and cons for both. I've certainly missed a few points. Without copious research and resources and just relying on intuition I suspect that as it stands today the impact of minimum wages is generally benign in this country. I understand that many will argue that it may lock out some unemployed but on the same token the substation effect with productivity is more problematic.

Minimum wages do very little to lock out the unemployed. What is far more harmful to unemployed workers' prospects are the practice of the RBA of hiking interest rates as soon as the last 5% to 10% of the unemployed get anywhere near a job. NAIRU is a false god that demands the sacrifices of the hopes of millions, and it is time this false god was smashed.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #118 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:26pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Minimum wages do very little to lock out the unemployed.

That's a sweeping statement. As pointed out earlier, the effect on those that earn above the posted minimum due to supply and demand for their labour is zilch. For those on the margin it will depend on the market clearance rate. If the minimum is below the clearance rate there is no effect. Above the clearance rate then it will certainly have an effect.


What is far more harmful to unemployed workers' prospects are the practice of the RBA of hiking interest rates as soon as the last 5% to 10% of the unemployed get anywhere near a job. NAIRU is a false god that demands the sacrifices of the hopes of millions, and it is time this false god was smashed.


Just on the subject of inflation targeting. Although it leaves a pool of unemployed it appears from the available research that over the long term the welfare benefits are higher. Seems that stable unemployment is a better outcome to repetitive boom and bust cycles. I confess that I hadn't delved quite so deeply into this until recently. Bit of an eye opener.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2001/wp01166.pdf
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #119 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:41pm
 
crocodile wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:26pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Minimum wages do very little to lock out the unemployed.

That's a sweeping statement. As pointed out earlier, the effect on those that earn above the posted minimum due to supply and demand for their labour is zilch. For those on the margin it will depend on the market clearance rate. If the minimum is below the clearance rate there is no effect. Above the clearance rate then it will certainly have an effect.


What is far more harmful to unemployed workers' prospects are the practice of the RBA of hiking interest rates as soon as the last 5% to 10% of the unemployed get anywhere near a job. NAIRU is a false god that demands the sacrifices of the hopes of millions, and it is time this false god was smashed.


Just on the subject of inflation targeting. Although it leaves a pool of unemployed it appears from the available research that over the long term the welfare benefits are higher. Seems that stable unemployment is a better outcome to repetitive boom and bust cycles. I confess that I hadn't delved quite so deeply into this until recently. Bit of an eye opener.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2001/wp01166.pdf

There's absolutely no evidence that forcing people to be out of work is necessary to control inflation. That's just an article of faith preached by the NAIRU worshippers. We had low inflation in Australia in the 1950s and low inflation, at the same time. The economy may have been different then, but if the NAIRU was accurate then inflation would have been soaring for 30 years. It didn't.

Ever noticed that the ones who most fervently argue for a "pool" of "spare capacity" are the ones least likely to be affected by unemployment, and so feel the misery of their own misguided policies?

The unemployment figures are not even accurate. They are contrived to exclude large groups of people. Then the government of the day enacts policies to hide hundreds of thousands of people from the official statistics with useless vocational training courses or Work for the Dole. Both sides of politics cook the books on unemployment statistics in various ways.

This is why the economy is performing as if unemployment was at 10% because that's the actual, true unemployment rate, once the hidden unemployed are included, with underemployment adding maybe another 10% on top.

Roy Morgan Employment Estimates (1999-2017)

We can eradicate involuntary unemployment and we can do so without causing inflation to go out of control. Abolish unpaid overtime, pay all overtime at statutory penalty rates and implement a Job Guarantee. It's not that hard.

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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #120 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 11:10pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:26pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Minimum wages do very little to lock out the unemployed.

That's a sweeping statement. As pointed out earlier, the effect on those that earn above the posted minimum due to supply and demand for their labour is zilch. For those on the margin it will depend on the market clearance rate. If the minimum is below the clearance rate there is no effect. Above the clearance rate then it will certainly have an effect.


What is far more harmful to unemployed workers' prospects are the practice of the RBA of hiking interest rates as soon as the last 5% to 10% of the unemployed get anywhere near a job. NAIRU is a false god that demands the sacrifices of the hopes of millions, and it is time this false god was smashed.


Just on the subject of inflation targeting. Although it leaves a pool of unemployed it appears from the available research that over the long term the welfare benefits are higher. Seems that stable unemployment is a better outcome to repetitive boom and bust cycles. I confess that I hadn't delved quite so deeply into this until recently. Bit of an eye opener.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2001/wp01166.pdf

There's absolutely no evidence that forcing people to be out of work is necessary to control inflation. That's just an article of faith preached by the NAIRU worshippers. We had low inflation in Australia in the 1950s and low inflation, at the same time. The economy may have been different then, but if the NAIRU was accurate then inflation would have been soaring for 30 years. It didn't.

Ever noticed that the ones who most fervently argue for a "pool" of "spare capacity" are the ones least likely to be affected by unemployment, and so feel the misery of their own misguided policies?

The unemployment figures are not even accurate. They are contrived to exclude large groups of people. Then the government of the day enacts policies to hide hundreds of thousands of people from the official statistics with useless vocational training courses or Work for the Dole. Both sides of politics cook the books on unemployment statistics in various ways.

This is why the economy is performing as if unemployment was at 10% because that's the actual, true unemployment rate, once the hidden unemployed are included, with underemployment adding maybe another 10% on top.

Roy Morgan Employment Estimates (1999-2017)

We can eradicate involuntary unemployment and we can do so without causing inflation to go out of control. Abolish unpaid overtime, pay all overtime at statutory penalty rates and implement a Job Guarantee. It's not that hard.



If we need a job guarantee then there has to be unemployment. By the way, unemployment may have been lower in fifties but so was the participation rate. Quoting unemployment figures without attention to the participation rate is of no practical use anywhere. Inflation was far more unstable at this time. This is considered more damaging even with averages.

...

I don't know of anybody arguing for "spare capacity". It is a result not a cause. It should be immediately obvious that if the supply of labour tightens while demand is high, the price will rise. Nothing you mention will avoid it.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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crocodile
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #121 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 11:12pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
crocodile wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:26pm:
Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Minimum wages do very little to lock out the unemployed.

That's a sweeping statement. As pointed out earlier, the effect on those that earn above the posted minimum due to supply and demand for their labour is zilch. For those on the margin it will depend on the market clearance rate. If the minimum is below the clearance rate there is no effect. Above the clearance rate then it will certainly have an effect.


What is far more harmful to unemployed workers' prospects are the practice of the RBA of hiking interest rates as soon as the last 5% to 10% of the unemployed get anywhere near a job. NAIRU is a false god that demands the sacrifices of the hopes of millions, and it is time this false god was smashed.


Just on the subject of inflation targeting. Although it leaves a pool of unemployed it appears from the available research that over the long term the welfare benefits are higher. Seems that stable unemployment is a better outcome to repetitive boom and bust cycles. I confess that I hadn't delved quite so deeply into this until recently. Bit of an eye opener.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2001/wp01166.pdf

There's absolutely no evidence that forcing people to be out of work is necessary to control inflation. That's just an article of faith preached by the NAIRU worshippers. We had low inflation in Australia in the 1950s and low inflation, at the same time. The economy may have been different then, but if the NAIRU was accurate then inflation would have been soaring for 30 years. It didn't.

Ever noticed that the ones who most fervently argue for a "pool" of "spare capacity" are the ones least likely to be affected by unemployment, and so feel the misery of their own misguided policies?

The unemployment figures are not even accurate. They are contrived to exclude large groups of people. Then the government of the day enacts policies to hide hundreds of thousands of people from the official statistics with useless vocational training courses or Work for the Dole. Both sides of politics cook the books on unemployment statistics in various ways.

This is why the economy is performing as if unemployment was at 10% because that's the actual, true unemployment rate, once the hidden unemployed are included, with underemployment adding maybe another 10% on top.

Roy Morgan Employment Estimates (1999-2017)

We can eradicate involuntary unemployment and we can do so without causing inflation to go out of control. Abolish unpaid overtime, pay all overtime at statutory penalty rates and implement a Job Guarantee. It's not that hard.



Who said there was. It is the effect and not the driver.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The Unaffordable Tax Cuts
Reply #122 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 6:14am
 
With tax cuts the Govt, would have to borrow more than they do now to
pay the pensioners & the public servants.

The whole country is borrowing to keep the party going.
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