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Automatic Transmissions (Read 2727 times)
Sprintcyclist
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Automatic Transmissions
Nov 18th, 2017 at 8:53pm
 

Am toying with the idea of my next car.

Either a 6 or 8 speed auto sounds nice to me.
8 is apparently the optimum number of gears manufacturers have settled on.

Funny, we used to have 8 cylinder cars with a 4 speed auto, now it is a 4 cylinder car with an 8 speed auto !!!
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 8:55pm
 
Seems Mazda make a good 6 speed auto.


Quote:
Listen to some automakers, and you might think that conventional automatic transmissions are obsolete and inferior—and to be replaced by continuously variable (CVT) automatics or dual-clutch (DCT) gearboxes.
This just in: not everyone is convinced they're better. According to Mazda, the good ol' hydraulic automatic—especially with a smart engineering rethink—is still one of the best bets for those of us who don't want to manually swap cogs all the time. And, they think, that's true for cars meant to be driven very enthusiastically, as well as those for which gas mileage is a little more important.

Both CVTs and DCTs are arguably less complex as well as cheaper to build when compared to a conventional automatics and all the requisite planetary gearsets, bands, hydraulics, and controllers. While the honeymoon seems over for CVTs—and some companies, including Ford, have cut that technology back out of their lineups—a number of automakers are in the process of phasing out their automatic transmissions in favor of dual-clutch gearboxes that, the companies argue, provide the more direct driving feel of a manual gearbox, combined with increased gas mileage.

For instance, that's what Ford did with its Fiesta and Focus small cars. Both models offer a so-called PowerShift automatic that's a DCT setup, with two smaller gearboxes side by side (and dual clutches to engage them). Like systems offered in BMW (DCT), VW/Audi (DSG), and Mitsubishi (Twin-Clutch) products, among others, one side provides first, third, and fifth, while the other allows second, fourth, and sixth.

And while Mazda considered a DSG-type gearbox for its front-wheel drive models, like the 2012 Mazda3, it opted against it.

Dual-clutch a weakness for downshifts, transitions

As engineers point out—and as we've noticed with some DCT systems—shifts are snappy, decisive, and incredibly quick when merely accelerating, but if you suddenly need a burst of additional power for passing, a steep grade, or accelerating out of a corner, these transmissions aren't as responsive as you might hope, because it's rare the other clutch would have the ideal gear on the ready.

So even when given a clean slate—as part of its SkyActiv carbon-reduction initiative—Mazda engineers weren't convinced that a dual-clutch design was the way to go. And with those drivability issues, and some potential durability issues, engineers told Motor Authority that they have no plans to offer a dual-clutch unit in any of their vehicles. Rather, they chose to take a fresh look at hydraulic automatic transmissions and produced a design that they claim gives better performance and is superior in just about every way when stacked up against a dual-clutch.

Mazda claims to have gotten shifts under full throttle to be about as quick as with a dual-clutch setup, while delivering consistently faster and smoother downshifts—helping the engine stay in its most powerful or efficient range.

Better gas mileage, no more slushbox feel

How is it different? One of the key philosophies in the design, from the start, was to radically minimize torque converter usage, which serves to both improve fuel economy and provide more of a direct driving feel. In the U.S. city driving cycle, the torque converter is locked up 88 percent of the time with the new design, versus 64 percent of the time with Mazda's existing five-speed automatic.

Those are just numbers, but what you feel, engineers point out (and we did in several test mules) is that from a start engine revs don't rise, then fall, then rise again in typical slushbox fashion; instead,  each gear has just a minimum of slip right at the beginning and then is completely linear. This is one of the first transmissions that allow full lockup even in first gear.




tbc
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 8:56pm
 

Quote:
The key to making this new logic work is a new multi-plate clutch system, rather than a single-disc or piston-based system, to engage or disengage the torque converter with way more finesse than existing automatics. And the clutch pack is controlled by an advanced mechatronics module that's integrated into the transmission case, containing its own microprocessor, software, and direct-acting solenoids.

Traditional automatics have long relied on plenty of torque-converter engagement, both as a way of keeping gear engagement especially smooth, and as a sort of crutch to help keep automatic transmissions more reliable. But as transmissions are designed to disengage the torque converter more frequently and more readily, they can get shaky, said Masamitsu Koike, the powertrain's development manager. So through a data-bus system, the mechatronics module is able to help adjust shift quality—for a change in vehicle load, for instance—to reduce driveline jolts, and it could help prolong the life of the transmission.

Shifts like a racing bike

In the test vehicle, we found that shifts with the new transmission, even moderate throttle, felt nearly instantaneous—quite like a racing bicycle with a high-end derailleur (and a good sign, given the brand's 'zoom-zoom' intent)—with none of the lumpiness or noticeable pause in momentum felt in Mazda's existing five-speed automatic.

The new transmission is slated for all of Mazda's hatchbacks, sedans, and crossovers that are based on front-wheel-drive architecture, so expect it eventually (within a couple of model years) in the Mazda5, Mazda6, CX-5, CX-7, and probably Mazda2 and CX-9, along with the 2012 Mazda Mazda3, which will get very soon—hooked up to the all-new Sky-G direct-injection gasoline engine, this fall.


https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1064742_mazda-rejects-dsgs-redefines-automat...
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #3 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 9:39pm
 
Go with an older proven design auto 4-5 speed - more reliable, less breakdowns, cheaper maintenance. Let other motorists be guinea pigs testing the new fangled transmissions

Toyota autos seem good, I've had two, only changed oil and filter - no flushing, not good for your auto unless it's done thoroughly

European autos can be very costly if they breakdown, and they do

For fuel efficiency, don't worry about the lock up of torque converter, check the mileage of the vehicle in it's specifications.

You don't want to get caught with a dud experiment they call a new design. It might cost you heaps in the long run 
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #4 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 9:49pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 18th, 2017 at 9:39pm:
Go with an older proven design auto 4-5 speed - more reliable, less breakdowns, cheaper maintenance. Let other motorists be guinea pigs testing the new fangled transmissions

Toyota autos seem good, I've had two, only changed oil and filter - no flushing, not good for your auto unless it's done thoroughly

European autos can be very costly if they breakdown, and they do

For fuel efficiency, don't worry about the lock up of torque converter, check the mileage of the vehicle in it's specifications.

You don't want to get caught with a dud experiment they call a new design. It might cost you heaps in the long run 


6 and 8 speeds are fine and reliable,  just don't go near a DCT. Also despite little love of CVT because of lack of driver feel, they're actually pretty good and help with fuel economy.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #5 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 10:10pm
 
Not a fan of Autos.
Sure, they're great in grid-lock crawls in city traffic.
But they use more fuel than a manual.
Over-rev on climbing hills (by x1000) to change gears.
Mechanics don't 'repair' Auto's - they replace.
A Manual gearbox can be repaired (for half the price).
Auto is boring to drive. (zzzz)
Auto gearbox's go kaput easier than Manuals - unless the driver is an absolute fiddle-stick.
NZ: Campervans - estimated that Auto transmissions use twice as much fuel, than manuals.
Auto's are good for Trucks. Drivers don't get 'clutch knee', though they use more fuel now.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #6 - Nov 18th, 2017 at 10:16pm
 
Jasin wrote on Nov 18th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Not a fan of Autos.
Sure, they're great in grid-lock crawls in city traffic.
But they use more fuel than a manual.
Over-rev on climbing hills (by x1000) to change gears.
Mechanics don't 'repair' Auto's - they replace.
A Manual gearbox can be repaired (for half the price).
Auto is boring to drive. (zzzz)
Auto gearbox's go kaput easier than Manuals - unless the driver is an absolute fiddle-stick.
NZ: Campervans - estimated that Auto transmissions use twice as much fuel, than manuals.
Auto's are good for Trucks. Drivers don't get 'clutch knee', though they use more fuel now.


You need a modern auto to get the best out of the new turbo diesels.


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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #7 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 3:03am
 
the DCT's are a typical piece of german junk.
Keep well away from that rubbish.

I have driven a few CVT's. Quite like them.
But they have NO 'driver feel'.


jasin - modernish autos are pretty good.
I often drive mine in the manual mode.
Around suburbia I limit it to 3rd gear.
Keeps the revs about 2K, torque converter locked, gives engine braking, good instant acceleration.

If it was a manual, you would not put it in 4th gear jn a 50km zone.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #8 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:27pm
 
Got me a petrol Ford Terr'uh'tree.. would prefer diesel, and it is apparent why they went to a six speed box (I've got the four) - the damned thing over-imagines itself on a hill and drops way below the sweet spot, often expecting to haul its heavy guts up a hill in top gear that I would do in probably fourth out of six or even three - no wonder they use fuel - I manually drive it up hills etc, and that keeps me about 10.7 to the hundred instead of the terrifying 16 or so around town for city folk.

On the other hand, the six speed boxes are 'sensitive'(must be something to do with that gay marriage vote or something - I dunno), even needing the mechanic to de-static his hands before touching them.... and they are costly to repair.

If I blow my four speed-er, which is pretty robust, I'll look at a six, as long as I don't have to change computers as well... probably involves computer and tail shaft and such... who knows?  On the other hand I can get a four speeder for $500 or less.... same as the AU etc Falcon and plenty around, and just drive it manually when I want.

Eight speed?  I can just imagine any repair bill....
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #9 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:33pm
 
Oh, yeah - and as regards autos - they are all made on licence and it is amazing what you can find from a smaller capacity engine car that will fit the same... amazing but true, and if you buy from a wrecker they'll probably charge less ....

Remember they are pretty much a standard build and the final gear ratios are done with the diff to suit the vehicle..... check carefully on the specs before buying.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #10 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:48pm
 
Jasin wrote on Nov 18th, 2017 at 10:10pm:
But they use more fuel than a manual.


That used to be true for many years, but not any more.  Modern automatics are more fuel efficient that even the best driven manuals - with a saving roughly in the region of 0.5L/100Km.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #11 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:53pm
 
yes, I think there are about 3 main auto manufacturers in the world.

Aisin, Jatec and the german one .


I drive my auto in the manual mode to keep the revs right for what I want.
Around 2000 rpm for normal areas.
If up or down a hill a lower gear, so higher revs.

If on the freeway, flat road, can leave it in top gear.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #12 - Nov 19th, 2017 at 6:11pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:53pm:
yes, I think there are about 3 main auto manufacturers in the world.

Aisin, Jatec and the german one .


I drive my auto in the manual mode to keep the revs right for what I want.
Around 2000 rpm for normal areas.
If up or down a hill a lower gear, so higher revs.

If on the freeway, flat road, can leave it in top gear.


Geteag is the Kraut one, burned me in my last car.

The CVT in  Dcooby-Do are supposed to be the best.
They even emulate gear changesjust to make the driver feel better
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #13 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 10:42am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 18th, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Am toying with the idea of my next car.

Either a 6 or 8 speed auto sounds nice to me.
8 is apparently the optimum number of gears manufacturers have settled on.

Funny, we used to have 8 cylinder cars with a 4 speed auto, now it is a 4 cylinder car with an 8 speed auto !!!



Have you considered the latest Honda Accord? It has no transmission.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #14 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 11:54am
 
Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2017 at 6:11pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:53pm:
yes, I think there are about 3 main auto manufacturers in the world.

Aisin, Jatec and the german one .


I drive my auto in the manual mode to keep the revs right for what I want.
Around 2000 rpm for normal areas.
If up or down a hill a lower gear, so higher revs.

If on the freeway, flat road, can leave it in top gear.


Geteag is the Kraut one, burned me in my last car.

The CVT in  Dcooby-Do are supposed to be the best.
They even emulate gear changesjust to make the driver feel better



I have a CVT in my Forester. I love it. I tried a Nissan CVT and hated it,  bu the Scooby one is really great.

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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #15 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 11:55am
 
Theres a couple of German ones Getrag and ZF.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #16 - Nov 23rd, 2017 at 11:56am
 
My experience with the DCTs is that when you're giving them the beans, the gearbox is really good, at partial throttle they dont like it so much.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #17 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:32am
 
minarchist wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 10:42am:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 18th, 2017 at 8:53pm:
Am toying with the idea of my next car.

Either a 6 or 8 speed auto sounds nice to me.
8 is apparently the optimum number of gears manufacturers have settled on.

Funny, we used to have 8 cylinder cars with a 4 speed auto, now it is a 4 cylinder car with an 8 speed auto !!!



Have you considered the latest Honda Accord? It has no transmission.



never heard of the before.

Thanks

Quote:
..............Direct drive, regenerative braking, high torque and fuel efficiency
Honda engineering employs its segment setting low displacement Atkinson Cycle engine, and two integrated electric motors, to effectively offset an automatic, conventional or CVT transmission. Under most driving conditions, Accord Hybrid runs primarily in EV mode, with the gasoline engine acting as a co generator, along with regenerative engine braking, to maintain the battery module charge level.

How it works
A bit simplified: When high speed passing, highway ingress, or sustained high speed highway cruising is demanded, the Atkinson Cycle gasoline engine is employed for additional torque, while charging the battery module. I experienced intermittent EV only cruising up to 50 miles MPH, although short lived. Deceleration in Accord Hybrid is accomplished through “regenerative braking.”
And, it comes on pretty hard.

How it works

Basically, the rare earth magnets do the duties of a transmission in Accord Hybrid. The downside is an instantaneous high revving of the gasoline engine on hard acceleration, there is no controlled “shifting.” This is the only time that Accord Hybrid is not library quiet.
As with Toyota Prius, Chevy Volt and other gasoline/electric hybrids, when you push the key less ignition button in Accord Hybrid, there is no start of a conventional gas engine. Your adventure in Accord Hybrid begins in near silent electric drive, as it should. I’ll continue the story this month with a full drive review of 2017 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring. Thanks for reading.........


https://www.torquenews.com/1574/2017-honda-accord-hybrid-presents-no-transmissio...
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #18 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 6:29pm
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 23rd, 2017 at 11:54am:
Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2017 at 6:11pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19th, 2017 at 5:53pm:
yes, I think there are about 3 main auto manufacturers in the world.

Aisin, Jatec and the german one .


I drive my auto in the manual mode to keep the revs right for what I want.
Around 2000 rpm for normal areas.
If up or down a hill a lower gear, so higher revs.

If on the freeway, flat road, can leave it in top gear.


Geteag is the Kraut one, burned me in my last car.

The CVT in  Dcooby-Do are supposed to be the best.
They even emulate gear changesjust to make the driver feel better



I have a CVT in my Forester. I love it. I tried a Nissan CVT and hated it,  bu the Scooby one is really great.



I agree, The Mrs has a Rav4 but we had a Forester and Outlander in the mix. I hadn't done any homework on the Forester and didn't even know it was CVT until the salesman told me. The Outlander CVT was kind of like if you got a transmission and infected it with HIV, ebola and leprosy.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #19 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 12:02pm
 
I have a Lancer VRX with 6 speed CVT and paddle shift for daily driver.

It works well in auto mode for the traffic jams that plague Sydney, the paddle shifts are great for highways when overtaking as you can change down without having to push the throttle down, also good for uphill and downhill as you can hold the gear you want and shift as needed.

The cruise control also allows it to change gears holds the speed really well so don't have to worry about being booked. Cruise control isn't as good with manuals as it cannot change gears going uphill.

10 year drivetrain warranty on the CVT by Mitsubishi.
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Re: Automatic Transmissions
Reply #20 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 2:11pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
I have a Lancer VRX with 6 speed CVT and paddle shift for daily driver.

It works well in auto mode for the traffic jams that plague Sydney, the paddle shifts are great for highways when overtaking as you can change down without having to push the throttle down, also good for uphill and downhill as you can hold the gear you want and shift as needed.

The cruise control also allows it to change gears holds the speed really well so don't have to worry about being booked. Cruise control isn't as good with manuals as it cannot change gears going uphill.


10 year drivetrain warranty on the CVT by Mitsubishi.


' ..... 10 year drivetrain warranty on the CVT by Mitsubishi......'

that is very good.


' .  The cruise control also allows it to change gears holds the speed really well so don't have to worry about being booked. Cruise control isn't as good with manuals as it cannot change gears going uphill...........'

I have found that too. In a smart auto, subaru CVT
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