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Racism, sacred cows and political correctness (Read 9299 times)
PZ547
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #510 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



Do you agree with what he is saying - that it is not racist?




He seems to be stating what he believes

Whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with him is what keeps this forum running
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #511 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:51pm
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:54pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
No They Don't



tell the high court.


You refuse to listen, don't you?  Native Title does NOT equate to ownership.. ONLY to the right to pursue traditional activities - you are deliberately seeking to expand the meaning of Native Title.

Nobody is stopping the Aboriginals from pursuing their traditional activities at or on Ayers Rock - it is they seeking to stop the traditional activities of others who wish to attain the spiritual height of having climbed The Rock.

I'm 100% positive that everyone who has climbed that Rock feels a massive uplifting of the spirit and a sense of achievement, and even validation of their manhood or womanhood.... spirituality is not just owned by Aboriginals in this nation, you know.

Share now, children - it's not so hard.... the Kaffir can keep on collecting the fees as an 'earned' 'right'... they've already been paid for the use of The Rock... let it be....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #512 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:54pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2017 at 9:08am:
Racism and government-imposed sacred cows, wrapped in the woolly fuzz of political correctness

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/racism-government-imposed-sacred-cows-wrapped-...

White people will be banned from Uluru. All non-aborigines will be, and presumably those aborigines who are from the wrong tribal group. Clearly, this is racist. Chances are, women won’t be allowed up there either, even if they have the correct skin colour. Even more concerning is that this is justified on spiritual grounds. One group’s spiritual views are so much more important than everyone else’s that the government has enshrined them in legislation so that our most iconic natural monument can be fenced off.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/ozpolitic-fence.jpg

This is not about the legitimacy of the spiritual views of aboriginal people. This is about imposing those views on people who do not share them, and doing so on racist lines. You don’t need to impose your religious beliefs on other people as a test of whether they are sufficiently respected, unless you are a terrorist, or apparently, aboriginal. It is no less absurd than putting a fence around Bondi beach and only allowing white Christians to go for a swim. The rest of you can come and visit and stay in our hotels, but you can only take photos from a respectful distance. We get really upset if you make a big deal about it, so please politely acknowledge our spiritual rights.

Our beaches, our national parks, our oceans, our rivers, these are all public property to be shared for the enjoyment of all. They are important to all Australians, not just a select few. They have spiritual significance to all sorts of people. They are not to be sold off to the loudest group of racist, religious zealots, no matter how sympathetic or politically correct their zealotry is. Imagine, for a moment, that a new cult sprung up and declared that climbing Uluru was a religious imperative. Whose religious views would the government decide are more important? Why would it take a cult with white people in it to bring home the absurdity of the situation? If you don't think white people also tend to invent sacred cows and impose them on other races, ask yourself what is inherently wrong with Japanese people eating whale meat from wild caught, sustainably harvested minke whales that are present in huge numbers in international waters.

The broader issue here is what it means to be Australian and what our values are. Are we moving to a post racial society where race truly does not matter and we are all truly equal? Or are we moving towards a re-racialised society that forever enshrines racism, superstition and sexism in petty, discriminatory laws? Should Aborigines be treated as equals? If they are our equals, can their spiritual views be more important than ours? Are their spiritual views more important than our right to climb Uluru? Is the historical suffering of their ancestors of more import than the suffering endured by everyone else’s?

You cannot have this both ways. Either aborigines are fully fledged citizens with equal rights, equal expectations and equal responsibilities, or they are stone age voodoo mongers incapable of surviving emotionally in modern society and who must be fenced off in some kind of special zoo for the protection of their delicate, ancient spiritual beliefs. Unfortunately the recent trend appears to be away from equality, and Uluru is just the tip of the iceberg. Our state and federal governments are enshrining in our legislation the soft bigotry of low expectations and the learned helplessness that has institutionalised intergenerational poverty and suffering. Real suffering that a fence around Uluru will do nothing to fix.

Unlike everyone else, Aborigines are not expected to carry their spiritual views into the 21st century as personal baggage to be celebrated with those who share it, but not thrust upon others at every opportunity. Instead we must reverse the hard-won separation of church and state and officially recognise the spiritual views of Aborigines at every opportunity. This started with lip service, and has taken us to a fence around Uluru. Where will it take us if we continue to feed this monster?

Aborigines are not even expected to manage their own finances. We have constantly evolving boards to hand out government money on their behalf. These boards are not elected. They inevitably turn corrupt, and are then reinvented and replaced with ‘trusted’ aboriginal leaders that everyone likes and that our politicians approve of. We have remote communities that are economically unviable, except for government handouts. Many of these communities are miniature communist states where the Aborigines who supposedly own the land cannot be trusted to purchase and manage their own piece of it. Inevitably, they live in squalor. The development of the land, recognised as necessary by those within and without, proceeds at a pace and efficiency you would expect from a communist regime (the Russian communist juggernaut that for many decades threatened US hegemony was created by literally forcing people out of rural communities and into the factories).


Which brings us back to the Opening Post.

I think it's abhorrent that the terms of the original agreement are at risk of being abused.
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You do realise that your avatar depicts you as a skinny legged, no balls, puffed up chest and the dumbest looking face nobody would own, don't ya?  Smiley
 
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freediver
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #513 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:55pm
 
The high court rejected their claim on Uluru.

PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



Do you agree with what he is saying - that it is not racist?




He seems to be stating what he believes

Whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with him is what keeps this forum running


Oh. Do you think someone agrees with John?
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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PZ547
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #514 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:03pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:51pm:
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:54pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
No They Don't



tell the high court.


You refuse to listen, don't you?  Native Title does NOT equate to ownership.. ONLY to the right to pursue traditional activities - you are deliberately seeking to expand the meaning of Native Title.

Nobody is stopping the Aboriginals from pursuing their traditional activities at or on Ayers Rock - it is they seeking to stop the traditional activities of others who wish to attain the spiritual height of having climbed The Rock.

I'm 100% positive that everyone who has climbed that Rock feels a massive uplifting of the spirit and a sense of achievement, and even validation of their manhood or womanhood.... spirituality is not just owned by Aboriginals in this nation, you know.

Share now, children - it's not so hard.... the Kaffir can keep on collecting the fees as an 'earned' 'right'... they've already been paid for the use of The Rock... let it be....


This discussion has forced me to think a little more deeply

I don't know if this is the case, but what if the Aborigines believe the Rock contains a spirit?  What if they believe it is alive?
What if they believe that tourists from all over the world are disrespecting, desecrating the home of that spirit?

What if the Aborigines have had to watch this happening for decades but didn't have the voice or the confidence to complain?  Then they were provided a voice, or found their voice and said, 'No more.  Keep off that rock.  It might be just a big rock to you, but it's actually a lot more than that to us '

I don't know if that's how they feel of course. Tourists aren't allowed to climb the pyramids at Giza any longer though, are they?  And tourists have to accept that.  My grandfather climbed one of the pyramids when he was in Egypt in WW1, but I wouldn't be allowed to climb it now.  Which is a good thing, because erosion is doing enough damage without thousands of feet a month adding to it.  People aren't allowed to remove flora from our national parks.  There are restrictions in life, things matter to other people and we must learn to respect them, even if we don't always understand them


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John Smith
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #515 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:26pm:
Sir Bobby wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:11pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:03pm:
John if the government handed Bondi Beach to a group of white people, with the expectation that they would ban all women and non-white men in accordance with their religious views, and that ownership would be an exclusive birthright of their children, would you insist that it is not racist so long as there was a theoretical possibility of them letting a non-white person in who adopted their religion and culture?



blah blah blah ....
lots of groups of white people own land around bondi that I am restricted from accessing FD. Why isn't that racism? Cheesy Cheesy



A very weak answer.


I never expected you to get it booby. you rarely do.


John why does the fact that all Australians, regardless of race, have a right to purchase property near Bondi Beach


Just as every australian has the right to purchase control of Uluru . ... if the current owners were so inclined to sell.

you can keep pretending it's racist till you're blue in the face, it won't help you.
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #516 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:05pm
 
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



Do you agree with what he is saying - that it is not racist?




He seems to be stating what he believes

Whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with him is what keeps this forum running


Don't lay that trip on me, Man - I refute everything JS puts up, based on simple facts and realities.

That has nothing to do with any rejection of his right to his views.... his posts serve a useful purpose in providing a target rich environment...... but his refusal to accept facts and realities once pointed out to him can be exasperating.... mainly because I expect better of him....

I suppose he's young in this nation yet and has yet to feel the stings of all the PC bullets (and that includes allowing the boss class to get away with murder and character assassination) ..... give him time... and a bit of experience in the real world...

That last might do a few here the world of good.... being knocked down a few times builds character.. and REAL knowledge and understanding of how things work....

Never let a special interest group get a foot in the door... if they do it will become a ravening monster....

So NO - the local council may NOT block Ayers Rock climbing to everyone but themselves.

Try it out a few times - say NO every time some idjit comes up with an ambent claim... test it out and see how it feels... soon it will become natural when you know idjits are demanding something more .. and more.... and more.... and will try any sneaky and emotive way to get it......

Repeat after me:-

NO!!!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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John Smith
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #517 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
If the government handed control of Bondi Beach to a group of white people,


Why just bondi FD?? Govt. has given control off many beaches to white man. Were they racist?

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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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John Smith
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #518 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:08pm
 
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



don't listen to the trollops on this forum, I'm no more aboriginal than you are eskimo .... My heritage is Italian.
Ohh, and I went away to have dinner.  Wink
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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John Smith
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #519 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:13pm
 
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:03pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:51pm:
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:54pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
No They Don't



tell the high court.


You refuse to listen, don't you?  Native Title does NOT equate to ownership.. ONLY to the right to pursue traditional activities - you are deliberately seeking to expand the meaning of Native Title.

Nobody is stopping the Aboriginals from pursuing their traditional activities at or on Ayers Rock - it is they seeking to stop the traditional activities of others who wish to attain the spiritual height of having climbed The Rock.

I'm 100% positive that everyone who has climbed that Rock feels a massive uplifting of the spirit and a sense of achievement, and even validation of their manhood or womanhood.... spirituality is not just owned by Aboriginals in this nation, you know.

Share now, children - it's not so hard.... the Kaffir can keep on collecting the fees as an 'earned' 'right'... they've already been paid for the use of The Rock... let it be....


This discussion has forced me to think a little more deeply

I don't know if this is the case, but what if the Aborigines believe the Rock contains a spirit?  What if they believe it is alive?
What if they believe that tourists from all over the world are disrespecting, desecrating the home of that spirit?

What if the Aborigines have had to watch this happening for decades but didn't have the voice or the confidence to complain?  Then they were provided a voice, or found their voice and said, 'No more.  Keep off that rock.  It might be just a big rock to you, but it's actually a lot more than that to us '

I don't know if that's how they feel of course. Tourists aren't allowed to climb the pyramids at Giza any longer though, are they?  And tourists have to accept that.  My grandfather climbed one of the pyramids when he was in Egypt in WW1, but I wouldn't be allowed to climb it now.  Which is a good thing, because erosion is doing enough damage without thousands of feet a month adding to it.  People aren't allowed to remove flora from our national parks.  There are restrictions in life, things matter to other people and we must learn to respect them, even if we don't always understand them




the fact that aborigines spirituality is centred around natural objects as opposed to man made shrines, temples and statues does not make them any less significant to their religious beliefs. If FD wants people who go to a Synagogue to respect the rules of that group, he also has to extend the same respect to aborigines and their temples' .

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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #520 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:55pm:
The high court rejected their claim on Uluru.

PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



Do you agree with what he is saying - that it is not racist?




He seems to be stating what he believes

Whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with him is what keeps this forum running


Oh. Do you think someone agrees with John?


Notice how your question keeps getting ignored FD?
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Quote by a member re THE EX CABBIE DRIVER :

You do realise that your avatar depicts you as a skinny legged, no balls, puffed up chest and the dumbest looking face nobody would own, don't ya?  Smiley
 
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PZ547
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #521 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:15pm
 
Quote:
"Our traditional law teaches us the proper way to behave. We ask you to respect our law by not climbing Uluru. What visitors call the climb is the traditional route taken by our traditional Mala men on their arrival at Uluru in the creation time. It has great spiritual significance," a sign at the base of Uluru reads


Light and informative article

http://mashable.com/2016/04/20/uluru-australia-climb/#4PcYGK7_DZqn


Keep off the Rock and show some respect please
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PZ547
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #522 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:17pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:15pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:55pm:
The high court rejected their claim on Uluru.

PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
PZ547 wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
John Smith's OK by me

We all have 'heritage'

We don't get to choose it

Furthermore, we're raised in bias at home, before we start school

Poms would become defensive if all they heard on here was pom-bashing

Those of French or Italian or Spanish etc. heritage would become defensive if all they heard was disparagement of their family line

Come on John Smith, come back.  Your opinions re: this matter are as worthy as those of anyone else



Do you agree with what he is saying - that it is not racist?




He seems to be stating what he believes

Whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with him is what keeps this forum running


Oh. Do you think someone agrees with John?


Notice how your question keeps getting ignored FD?



Yes, I agree with John Smith and I agree that non-tribal members should stay off the Rock


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Lisa Jones
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #523 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:18pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:02pm:
John Smith wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:53pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 7:37pm:
BECAUSE JOHN SMITH HAS FINALLY COME CLEAN IN TELLING THE TRUTH IE THAT HE'S ABORIGINAL.



FD ban her please. According to you revealing personal information will not be tolerated, even if the information is false. You said something along the lines of 'if it looks like personal information it will be treated as such, no loopholes '  ....

or does that rule only apply to some people fd?


I only pointed out your own post.

It's not my fault that you can't keep up with your lies and FD outted you!

Sucked in!

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Quote by a member re THE EX CABBIE DRIVER :

You do realise that your avatar depicts you as a skinny legged, no balls, puffed up chest and the dumbest looking face nobody would own, don't ya?  Smiley
 
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PZ547
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Re: Racism, sacred cows and political correctness
Reply #524 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:18pm
 
And Ps:  I detest bullies.  Particularly when they imagine they're part of a gang.  Cowards. I detest cowards too
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