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Are religious people more moral? (Read 18908 times)
Lisa Jones
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #30 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:46am
 
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:39am:
All myth expresses the Consciousness of humanity. Therefore, it cant be good or bad, better or worse... All we can do is listen to the stories of our past... of our future and understand that everybody, past and present, belongs to these stories.


Fair post. Smiley


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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #31 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:35pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:46am:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:39am:
All myth expresses the Consciousness of humanity. Therefore, it cant be good or bad, better or worse... All we can do is listen to the stories of our past... of our future and understand that everybody, past and present, belongs to these stories.


Fair post. Smiley



Perhaps, but it does not address the fact that these myths are being used to manipulate the way people think.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #32 - Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:33am
 
Raven wrote on Nov 1st, 2017 at 12:58am:
A recent study led by psychologist Will Gervais, found widespread and extreme moral prejudice against atheists around the world. Across all continents, people assumed that those who committed immoral acts, even extreme ones such as serial murder, were more likely to be atheists.

Survey data show that Americans are less trusting of atheists than of any other social group. For most politicians, going to church is often the best way to garner votes, and coming out as an unbeliever could well be political suicide. After all, there are no open atheists in the U.S. Congress. The only known religiously unaffiliated representative describes herself as “none,” but still denies being an atheist.
So, where does such extreme prejudice come from? And what is the actual evidence on the relationship between religion and morality?


Around the world? Around the US of A more like it.  Americans are a special case. After all, they elected Trump (ok. Not all of them). 

We have plenty of atheists in Parliament.  We don't suffer from the US anti-atheist affiction.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #33 - Jan 18th, 2018 at 6:38am
 
John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:33am:
Around the world? Around the US of A more like it.  Americans are a special case. After all, they elected Trump (ok. Not all of them). 

We have plenty of atheists in Parliament.  We don't suffer from the US anti-atheist affiction.


Religion is perhaps more visible now in Australian politics than it has been for almost thirty years. There would seem to be a growing lobby from within the religious right whose overt mission is to exert influence over public policy making in Australia. For some time there has been a federal Parliamentary Christian Fellowship which meets during sitting weeks to read passages from the Bible and exchange views and personal anecdotes on how their faith is tested within politics.

It is an interdenominational membership (as long as you are Christian of course) which crosses party membership, there is no roll call at meetings and minutes are never taken. It is not easy to get the exact numbers but reports have it that the group draws on a regular pool of between 60 and 75. The total number of federal MPs and Senators is only 226, so it would seem that our federal Parliament at least has more than its fair share of committed Christians.

The federal Parliamentary Christian Fellowship organises regular prayer breakfasts - which are addressed by invited ministers.

In 1993 a Parliamentary Prayer Network was established for people to gather and pray in Parliament House. This group has a schools program which links Christian schools with members and Senators.

In 2005 the Parliamentary Prayer Network hosted a two-day conference in the great hall of Parliament House - a conference on the theme of 'Prayer, Nations and Government', which included church services. The guest speaker at that conference was Texan prophet Cindy Jacobs who believes that Christians must take over the world through its governments, exhorts Christians to train their children for martyrdom on the mission field in the final clash of civilizations and has prophesied that Australia will become a theocracy.

There is also the shadowy Lyons Forum within  the ranks of the Coalition MPs. The Lyons Forum doesn't proclaim itself a Christian group but has never rejected the tag 'ultra-conservative Christian faction'  and certainly to the 40-50 or so conservatives who are members of the group, its primary role is to pursue the interests of 'families'.

This group was arguably at its hey-day in the 90s but was reportedly reformed in 2003 to reinvigorate its push for government policy in line with traditional Christian values.

And we must not forget that in recent decades, the delivery by religious organisations of services  that were formerly the province of government agencies has increased substantially. The Commonwealth employment services, worth hundreds of millions of dollars,  were  contracted out to largely faith based organisations. Religious organisations run public hospitals and residential aged care and disability services.

Funding changes under the Howard  Government have substantially increased taxpayer money for non­-government schools, the majority of which are church­ based. In the past few years churches were actively encouraged to tender for contracts to provide counselling in custody disputes under the new Family Law Act.

The prominence of religious based organisations in the provision of services, while arguably valuable, can be problematic. Delivery of social services can be effective and respectful of religious liberty; however religious provision can mean clients are denied services available elsewhere. The Catholic Church, for instance, will not conduct vasectomies, tubal ligation or  abortions, though they arc legal and routine in other public hospitals. People in many parts of Australia are discriminated against by having no alternative hospital provider - Bendigo is a case in point.

And of course we have seen a number of government appointments that have called into question the intersection of church and state. The ill-fated appointment of Archbishop Peter Hollingworth as Governor-General,  at a time when abuse of children in church institutions was being hotly debated, and in the context of his inadequate role in responding to the problem, was contentious to say the least.

The more religious the parliament is, the more likely it is to have scant regard for the separation of church and state and the more likely to find religious reasons for decisions - reasons that will be incomprehensible to many non-religious people. Religiously motivated government policy-making, whether based on sincere religious ideology or as a concession to religious constituents, also runs the risk of making superficial responses to complex social phenomenon.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #34 - Jan 18th, 2018 at 7:37am
 
I agree that this is true for the far right organisations you discuss, but in Australian society in general, atheists are regarded more with apathy than anything else. There is no stigma attached to being an atheist in Australia, whereas in parts of the US, there certainly is.

I don't believe that there is currently anything that prevents atheists from becoming a public official - not even in the NT.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #35 - Jan 18th, 2018 at 10:31pm
 
I don't think it is entirely fair to attach the sobriquet "right wing" to the religious, if you are only going to do so with Christians. There is a stigma here, that is associated with Nazis. Torres Strait natives still refer to Christianity as the coming of the light. And indeed it was, as they were eating people prior to the arrival of the missionaries. If we want to point out the failings of Christianity we damned-well need to do it with Islam, but we are bending over backwards to accommodate the bastards. Take a look at the way SBS and the ABC is trying to "normalise" their superstition and ignorance with the happy smiling Muzlim as so much a part of Australia society. Forget the aliakbahs.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #36 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 12:10am
 
Raven wrote on Jan 18th, 2018 at 6:38am:
John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:33am:
Around the world? Around the US of A more like it.  Americans are a special case. After all, they elected Trump (ok. Not all of them). 

We have plenty of atheists in Parliament.  We don't suffer from the US anti-atheist affiction.


Religion is perhaps more visible now in Australian politics than it has been for almost thirty years. There would seem to be a growing lobby from within the religious right whose overt mission is to exert influence over public policy making in Australia. For some time there has been a federal Parliamentary Christian Fellowship which meets during sitting weeks to read passages from the Bible and exchange views and personal anecdotes on how their faith is tested within politics.

It is an interdenominational membership (as long as you are Christian of course) which crosses party membership, there is no roll call at meetings and minutes are never taken. It is not easy to get the exact numbers but reports have it that the group draws on a regular pool of between 60 and 75. The total number of federal MPs and Senators is only 226, so it would seem that our federal Parliament at least has more than its fair share of committed Christians.

The federal Parliamentary Christian Fellowship organises regular prayer breakfasts - which are addressed by invited ministers.

In 1993 a Parliamentary Prayer Network was established for people to gather and pray in Parliament House. This group has a schools program which links Christian schools with members and Senators.

In 2005 the Parliamentary Prayer Network hosted a two-day conference in the great hall of Parliament House - a conference on the theme of 'Prayer, Nations and Government', which included church services. The guest speaker at that conference was Texan prophet Cindy Jacobs who believes that Christians must take over the world through its governments, exhorts Christians to train their children for martyrdom on the mission field in the final clash of civilizations and has prophesied that Australia will become a theocracy.

There is also the shadowy Lyons Forum within  the ranks of the Coalition MPs. The Lyons Forum doesn't proclaim itself a Christian group but has never rejected the tag 'ultra-conservative Christian faction'  and certainly to the 40-50 or so conservatives who are members of the group, its primary role is to pursue the interests of 'families'.

This group was arguably at its hey-day in the 90s but was reportedly reformed in 2003 to reinvigorate its push for government policy in line with traditional Christian values.

And we must not forget that in recent decades, the delivery by religious organisations of services  that were formerly the province of government agencies has increased substantially. The Commonwealth employment services, worth hundreds of millions of dollars,  were  contracted out to largely faith based organisations. Religious organisations run public hospitals and residential aged care and disability services.

Funding changes under the Howard  Government have substantially increased taxpayer money for non­-government schools, the majority of which are church­ based. In the past few years churches were actively encouraged to tender for contracts to provide counselling in custody disputes under the new Family Law Act.

The prominence of religious based organisations in the provision of services, while arguably valuable, can be problematic. Delivery of social services can be effective and respectful of religious liberty; however religious provision can mean clients are denied services available elsewhere. The Catholic Church, for instance, will not conduct vasectomies, tubal ligation or  abortions, though they arc legal and routine in other public hospitals. People in many parts of Australia are discriminated against by having no alternative hospital provider - Bendigo is a case in point.

And of course we have seen a number of government appointments that have called into question the intersection of church and state. The ill-fated appointment of Archbishop Peter Hollingworth as Governor-General,  at a time when abuse of children in church institutions was being hotly debated, and in the context of his inadequate role in responding to the problem, was contentious to say the least.

The more religious the parliament is, the more likely it is to have scant regard for the separation of church and state and the more likely to find religious reasons for decisions - reasons that will be incomprehensible to many non-religious people. Religiously motivated government policy-making, whether based on sincere religious ideology or as a concession to religious constituents, also runs the risk of making superficial responses to complex social phenomenon.


Very good post Raven.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #37 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 9:38am
 
issuevoter wrote on Jan 18th, 2018 at 10:31pm:
I don't think it is entirely fair to attach the sobriquet "right wing" to the religious, if you are only going to do so with Christians. There is a stigma here, that is associated with Nazis. Torres Strait natives still refer to Christianity as the coming of the light. And indeed it was, as they were eating people prior to the arrival of the missionaries. If we want to point out the failings of Christianity we damned-well need to do it with Islam, but we are bending over backwards to accommodate the bastards. Take a look at the way SBS and the ABC is trying to "normalise" their superstition and ignorance with the happy smiling Muzlim as so much a part of Australia society. Forget the aliakbahs.


It's the extremist Muslims (and far right Christians) that are the trouble.

Add a bit of mental weakness and you have a recipe for disaster.

Don't forget that it was mostly average moderate  Muslims who practically eradicated the ISIS cancer from Iraq at a considerable cost in lives.

Survival of the fittest.  Religious extremists have no "evolutionary" advantage.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #38 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 11:41am
 
issuevoter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:35pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:46am:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:39am:
All myth expresses the Consciousness of humanity. Therefore, it cant be good or bad, better or worse... All we can do is listen to the stories of our past... of our future and understand that everybody, past and present, belongs to these stories.


Fair post. Smiley



Perhaps, but it does not address the fact that these myths are being used to manipulate the way people think.


People manipulate each other... always have done and will use whatever means to do so.

The issue for me is why the rise in peeps identifying with faith? It is a form of tribalism. Perhaps, it is a sign of insecurity.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #39 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 12:56pm
 
John_Taverner wrote on Jan 20th, 2018 at 9:38am:
issuevoter wrote on Jan 18th, 2018 at 10:31pm:
I don't think it is entirely fair to attach the sobriquet "right wing" to the religious, if you are only going to do so with Christians. There is a stigma here, that is associated with Nazis. Torres Strait natives still refer to Christianity as the coming of the light. And indeed it was, as they were eating people prior to the arrival of the missionaries. If we want to point out the failings of Christianity we damned-well need to do it with Islam, but we are bending over backwards to accommodate the bastards. Take a look at the way SBS and the ABC is trying to "normalise" their superstition and ignorance with the happy smiling Muzlim as so much a part of Australia society. Forget the aliakbahs.


It's the extremist Muslims (and far right Christians) that are the trouble.

Add a bit of mental weakness and you have a recipe for disaster.

Don't forget that it was mostly average moderate  Muslims who practically eradicated the ISIS cancer from Iraq at a considerable cost in lives.

Survival of the fittest.  Religious extremists have no "evolutionary" advantage.


You should clarify what you mean by a moderate Muzlim. Turk Erdogan for one, will disagree before you start. All Ali Akbah attacks in Australia have been from the so-called moderate Muzlim community.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #40 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:39am
 
I can also be prejudiced, but I consider convinced atheists more moral people. Although I do not like the word "morality" at all. These people simply understand that you can not kill people, steal, cause suffering, simply because, rather than because they will punished for this after death)
Most often  religious fanatics or people those who hide behind an ostentatious religiosity are the most terrible and evil people)
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #41 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:01am
 
Don't question the morals of those who are good without god.

Pity those who need god to be good.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #42 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:25am
 
Interestingly, a study that is repeatable has shown that children from "religious families" are less altruistic than those from "atheist families".  Shocked


Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

THE AUSTRALIAN NOVEMBER 06, 2015 4:00AM


John Ross
Higher Education Reporter

...
An international study has found children in religious families are meaner than their godless peers. Source: Supplied


They grow up in wholesome households, raised to love their neighbours, but new research suggests righteous kids are the tightest.

An international study has found children in religious families are meaner than their godless peers. The report, published today in the journal Current ­Biology, challenges notions that equate piety with charity.

“Religion and morality are two different things,” said lead author Jean Decety, a Chicago University neuroscientist.

“Past research has demonstrated that religious people are no more likely to do good than their non-religious counterparts. Our study goes beyond that, showing that religious people are less generous — not only adults, but children, too.”

In the study, more than 1100 kids aged between five and 12 were asked to share stickers with anonymous schoolmates. The subjects lived in North America, the Middle East, South Africa and China, and included Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus.

Those from agnostic and atheist households consistently proved less likely to keep the best stickers to themselves. “The more religious the parents, the less altruistic the children, irrespective of the religion,” Dr Decety told The Australian.

He attributed the findings to a phenomenon dubbed “moral licensing”, where people’s perceptions that they were doing good — in this case, practising religion — exempted them from the obligation to perform other worthy deeds. “Apparently, doing something that helps strengthen our positive self-image also makes us less worried about the consequences of immoral behaviour,” he said.

The study also found that when the children were shown videos of “mundane” affronts, such as people bumping and pushing each other, religious kids were more inclined to decide harsh punishment was warranted. Dr Decety said this supported previous findings that organised religion promoted intolerance and punitiveness.

Dr Decety, who identifies as a secular Jew, said the team’s findings supported “solid” sociological and historical evidence that religious people were not necessarily more moral than disbelievers. He said most white opponents of America’s civil rights movement had been ­religious, while most white supporters had not.

The same applied to South ­Africa’s apartheid regime, which was supported by devout Christians and Jews and opposed by atheists.

He said the findings contradicted a “common sense notion” equating religiosity with moral behaviour.

“This view is so deeply embedded that individuals who are not religious can be considered morally suspect — especially in the US, (where they) have little chance of being elected to high political office.”


www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/religious-children-meaner-than-agnostic-and-atheist-kids-study-finds/story-e6frg6so-1227597959661






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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #43 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:35am
 
I reject all god-prophet-messiah-heaven-hell-afterlife religions for this reason. Morality is salesmanship, because preachers know it appeals, but once the person becomes a follower, the cannot count on it. It is then the hierarchy that matters. You never know what people believe, you only know what they say they believe. Cosmic truth is personal. It's not a club.
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Re: Are religious people more moral?
Reply #44 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:40am
 
Looking at matty, I wouldn't say so.
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