Australian Politics Forum - Concrete Gravity Trains

Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20221 Gordon Gender:	Concrete Gravity Trains Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:33am Now this looks smart. I was thinking of something more along the lines of lifting heavy weights vertically with either renewable or off-peak energy. These Concrete Gravity Trains May Solve the Energy Storage Problem http://interestingengineering.com/concrete-gravity-trains-may-solve-energy-stora...
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miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6488 Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #1 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:58am I still think compressed air would be more simple
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20221 Gordon Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #2 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:07am miketrees wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:58am: I still think compressed air would be more simple I guess it comes to the maintenance of high pressure tanks? Could be more suitable in dry environments. The concrete train is claiming 80% efficiency!!!
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miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6488 Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #3 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:42am The concrete train is claiming 80% efficiency!!! That would be exceptional and hard to beat
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20221 Gordon Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #4 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:57am miketrees wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:42am: The concrete train is claiming 80% efficiency!!! That would be exceptional and hard to beat The thing I like about it is that it's very simple, no new technology. Just electric motors and regenerative braking. You just need a few km of train tracks and a slight incline.
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #5 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 10:03am from my perspective as a layman, it sounds like a brilliant idea.
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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #6 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:02pm Jevons paradox was all about the bullshite contained in the word: 'efficiency'... (What is an economy again? ..................?) Ergo, the world : maybe the bible explains it better
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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #7 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:03pm John Smith wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 10:03am: from my perspective as a layman, it sounds like a brilliant idea. Did you read it?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #8 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:32pm TheFunPolice wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:03pm: John Smith wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 10:03am: from my perspective as a layman, it sounds like a brilliant idea. Did you read it? of course.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47344 At my desk.	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #9 - Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:45pm 80% sounds a bit optimistic. How does this compare with pumped water storage? With a fairly small amount of infrastructure you can lift an entire dam full of water up the mountain over time. Although it might be easier to get more height, the amount of mass carried up would be tiny in comparison.
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TheFunPolice Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9009 waggawagga Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #10 - Aug 22^nd, 2017 at 5:32pm John Smith wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:32pm: TheFunPolice wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 5:03pm: John Smith wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 10:03am: from my perspective as a layman, it sounds like a brilliant idea. Did you read it? of course. Maybe I should then...
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Johnnie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12485 Gender:	Re: Concrete Gravity Trains Reply #11 - Aug 22^nd, 2017 at 6:14pm Water doesn't weigh much less than concrete and it would take a lot of concrete to fill up a dam in comparison, maybe they could use lead where there is no water available.
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minarchist

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Re: Concrete Gravity Trains
Reply #12 - Aug 29^th, 2017 at 10:55am

Reading the technical details on this system, I'm not very impressed

Quote:

While it may sound absurd, in only a few years, Nevada's electrical grid may be stabilized by a fleet of automated trains weighing 300 tons each. The company has specifically designed the system to work best on a grade of 7.2%. This allows the best transfer of energy from potential to kinetic while also allowing the trains to maintain stability. When each 300-ton train moves down the slope, it can provide 50MW of power to help stabilize the grid. In total, the track for the Nevada system will stretch 9.2 kilometers through the desert with an elevation differential of 640 meters (2100 feet).

While the system may be useful in some circumstances, it relies on being built in a mountainous region and seems to cover a large footprint of land for a small amount of energy storage. I didn't see any costs in the article either, so I don't know how economical this energy storage system is compared to others.

Gordon wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:07am:

miketrees wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:58am:

I still think compressed air would be more simple

I guess it comes to the maintenance of high pressure tanks?
Could be more suitable in dry environments.

The concrete train is claiming 80% efficiency!!!

Flywheels have the same level of efficiency and have a smaller footprint. I don't know why there seems to be little interest in flywheel systems, given that their current cost per Wh is cheaper than lithium batteries and a single unit can last for up to 30 years.

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Gordon

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Re: Concrete Gravity Trains
Reply #13 - Aug 29^th, 2017 at 5:27pm

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:45pm:

80% sounds a bit optimistic.

How does this compare with pumped water storage? With a fairly small amount of infrastructure you can lift an entire dam full of water up the mountain over time. Although it might be easier to get more height, the amount of mass carried up would be tiny in comparison.

The the advantages of this is it can be used in dry climates and you need a particular geography for pumped hydro. The train only needs a mild grade.

As for 80%, i assume they could work all that put pretty accurately as it's all existingtechnology

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freediver

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Re: Concrete Gravity Trains
Reply #14 - Aug 30^th, 2017 at 12:03am

minarchist wrote on Aug 29^th, 2017 at 10:55am:

Reading the technical details on this system, I'm not very impressed

Quote:

While it may sound absurd, in only a few years, Nevada's electrical grid may be stabilized by a fleet of automated trains weighing 300 tons each. The company has specifically designed the system to work best on a grade of 7.2%. This allows the best transfer of energy from potential to kinetic while also allowing the trains to maintain stability. When each 300-ton train moves down the slope, it can provide 50MW of power to help stabilize the grid. In total, the track for the Nevada system will stretch 9.2 kilometers through the desert with an elevation differential of 640 meters (2100 feet).

While the system may be useful in some circumstances, it relies on being built in a mountainous region and seems to cover a large footprint of land for a small amount of energy storage. I didn't see any costs in the article either, so I don't know how economical this energy storage system is compared to others.

Gordon wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 9:07am:

miketrees wrote on Aug 21^st, 2017 at 8:58am:

I still think compressed air would be more simple

I guess it comes to the maintenance of high pressure tanks?
Could be more suitable in dry environments.

The concrete train is claiming 80% efficiency!!!

Flywheels have the same level of efficiency and have a smaller footprint. I don't know why there seems to be little interest in flywheel systems, given that their current cost per Wh is cheaper than lithium batteries and a single unit can last for up to 30 years.

A flywheel keeps losing energy. A train on top of a hill will just stay there, not losing any, waiting until the energy is needed.

Dams tend to have large footprint as well, over prime agricultural land rather than steep mountain side. But still a lot cheaper than the train idea I would expect. And flywheels would be the most expensive of the three.

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