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Question: Is saying "Arabs are responsible for diseases spread by Arabs, just like Europeans are responsible for diseases spread by Europeans" blatant racism?

yes    
  3 (23.1%)
no    
  1 (7.7%)
yes - but only against whites    
  1 (7.7%)
not racist - WAAAACIST!    
  1 (7.7%)
what an idiotic question    
  7 (53.8%)




Total votes: 13
« Last Modified by: polite_gandalf on: Jan 9th, 2018 at 8:07am »

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Islam-inspired racism (Read 40069 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #15 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:40am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:20am:
Is it an accurate description of what you think and what you have argued?


Of course not. They broke a treaty, that is a fact. Mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment for it (even though it almost certainly didn't happen) - according to the customs and culture of the time. From this most uncontroversial comment you turn this into rabid racism - by shoving words down my mouth. Thus because I said they broke a treaty, and because they happened to be jews, they become "treacherous jews", which you know brings on a completely new spin on the whole thing. You attempt to be clever with attempted logic and argue: 'well they were treaty breakers, and they were jews, therefore 'treacherous jews' accurately describes them - right?'. Thats literally how you come up with the absurd claim that I call them "treacherous jews". And of course when I deny it, you have another brilliant rejoinder - 'oh, by denying it, you're just covering up your racism and being sneaky about it' - which according to you only muslim racists do.


freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:20am:
Isn't Arab and Semite pretty much the same thing?


Yes. But you know as well as I know that the term "anti-semite" has been adopted as a specific word to refer to anti-jewish racism.

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:20am:
When did Muslims stop being a mindless collective?


Mostly they haven't - right?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #16 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:58am
 
Try again Gandalf.

When did Muslims stop being a mindless collective?

Does denying the genocide make you less racist?

And who said it was specifically about Jews?

Let's break the rest down:

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?

Try to impress Karnal with your amazing abilities at giving straight answers.
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #17 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:22am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:58am:
When did Muslims stop being a mindless collective?


Mostly they haven't - right?

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:58am:
And who said it was specifically about Jews?


you did.

Here you go, this is just the latest instance:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:28pm:
Are you now denying that they were a mindless collective of treacherous Jews



freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:58am:
Let's break the rest down:

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?



These are your words FD, not mine. Here's my actual words, again:

Me: they broke a treaty and mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment according to the customs and culture of 7th century Arab society.

Remembering, these are the actual words that causes you to shriek like a babbling imbecile "gah!! wacist!!"

Also, please ask me again "who said it was specifically about Jews" - while keeping a straight face.

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:58am:
Try to impress Karnal with your amazing abilities at giving straight answers.


Done.

Now here's one for you FD:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 9:02am:
FD do you agree that to be racist against jews, one would need to single out jews for their inherent negative attributes/behaviour specifically because of their "jewishness"? As opposed to making a general observation about the culture of a particular society in a particular time and place - which has absolutely nothing to do with any real or perceived characteristics that are particular to the jewish "race"?


Try to impress me with your amazing abilities at not being a hypocrite because you don't actually ignore a question completely - let alone give a straight answer to it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #18 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:39am
 
Quote:
Mostly they haven't - right?


Are you asking me a question in response Gandalf? You know that I do not buy into your racist propaganda about mindless collectives. Do you think Muslims have largely brought this 7th century Arab trait of mindless collectiveness into the modern world?

Quote:
Done


You left out the bit where you actually answer the questions Gandalf. Is it racist to give straight answers to these questions?

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?

Quote:
Remembering, these are the actual words that causes you to shriek like a babbling imbecile "gah!! wacist!!"


Are you saying that you absolutely *ARE* terrified of being seen as racist, but agree with the substance anyway, even if you would prefer to put a more PC spin on it?

Quote:
FD do you agree that to be racist against jews


Who said this was about being racist against Jews in general?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #19 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 2:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:39am:
Are you asking me a question in response Gandalf? You know that I do not buy into your racist propaganda about mindless collectives.


But... but.... Islam isn't a race FD - remember? I can call muslims a mindless collective and it can't be racist. I know because you taught me that. So whats this you're saying now about it being "racist propaganda"? I thought I can literally say anything about muslims and not be racist - like saying 100% of the male muslim population are intellectually disabled due to inbreeding. And if you accuse me of being racist, I'll just throw back the good ol' "Islam isn't a race".

Don't you agree that muslims today are largely a "mindless collective"? Frank does.

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:39am:
You left out the bit where you actually answer the questions Gandalf. Is it racist to give straight answers to these questions?

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?


Sorry FD, perhaps I wasn't clear: these are all *YOUR* words, not mine. What you are doing here is feebly attempting to entrap me by getting me to admit to clearly racist terminology that are entirely your invention. Here's my words again: they broke a treaty and mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment according to the customs and culture of 7th century Arab society. Thats all FD. Continue twisting this into whatever rabidly racist nonsense you wish - it doesn't alter what I actually said. Nor would any reasonable person who read my actual words make the absurd leap in logic to say "oooh he really means a "'mindless collective of treacherous jews!'" How wacist!!

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:39am:
Who said this was about being racist against Jews in general?


Cute.

FD are you saying I'm not an anti-semite (as in anti-jew racist)? I've asked this before, you seem to want to avoid it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #20 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:22pm
 
Quote:
But... but.... Islam isn't a race FD - remember? I can call muslims a mindless collective and it can't be racist.


Do you?

Quote:
Sorry FD, perhaps I wasn't clear: these are all *YOUR* words, not mine.


Yes Gandalf. They are my questions to you. Inspired by things you have said.

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?

Quote:
What you are doing here is feebly attempting to entrap me by getting me to admit to clearly racist terminology that are entirely your invention.


Again, it's the substance that matters, not the spin. Right? Or can racists avoid the charge of racism merely by being cautious with their terminology? Are you going for mealy mouthed racism here?

Quote:
Here's my words again: they broke a treaty and mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment according to the customs and culture of 7th century Arab society. Thats all FD.


That is your current version. You have tried many excuses for Muhammad's genocide previously.

Quote:
Continue twisting this into whatever rabidly racist nonsense you wish - it doesn't alter what I actually said. Nor would any reasonable person who read my actual words make the absurd leap in logic to say "oooh he really means a "'mindless collective of treacherous jews!'" How wacist!!

So why not answer the questions then?

Quote:
FD are you saying I'm not an anti-semite (as in anti-jew racist)? I've asked this before, you seem to want to avoid it.


I have responded plenty of times by pointing out that you don't have to target Jews to be racist. Your propaganda in this case appears to be targetted at a particular trial grouping.
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #21 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 9:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 12:49pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:18pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:10pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:52pm:
Why the extraordinary efforts to boil everything down to simplistic hysteria about racism?


Gosh FD, hysteria about racism? Some might think that screeching months and years on end about how "racist" it is to suggest that the mass execution of members of a 7th century tribe for breaking a treaty might be deemed justified by the standards and culture of the time - is a pretty good example of "simplistic hysteria about racism".

But what this is about is your stubborn refusal to acknowledge what is evident to blind Freddy: that mealy mouthed racists, who absolutely *ARE* terrified of being seen as racist,  have latched on to the anti-Islam bandwagon to feed their racism, with their favourite rejoinder "Islam is not a race"  merely being the latest incantation of the old "I'm not racist but..." excuse.

And the fact that you are the most hysterical whiner about racism - sorry wacism - here, when it concerns muslims and/or their apologists attacking jews, is just an interesting aside.


I asked you to point these people out Gandalf. So far they are a figment of your imagination.

And I called you out on your racism because you are a textbook case of mealy mouthed racism, and you are right here on this forum. You described them over a span of years variously as a mindless collective a treacherous warrior Jews, all in efforts to justify Muhammad's genocide. But when your own words are presented to you you reject them because (again, in your own words) it 'sounds' racist. You absolutely *ARE* terrified of being seen as racist, but when all else failed, you fell back on racism because your religion compels you to come up with any excuse you can find to justify mass murder.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:15am:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:18pm:
I asked you to point these people out Gandalf. So far they are a figment of your imagination.


Sure, FD - one good example is constantly broad-stroking the entire muslim population as a monolithic hive mind of sinister conspirators out to deceive everyone


Islam is not a race Gandalf. And you are the only one here who invokes a hive mind of sinister conspirators to justify genocide.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:15am:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:18pm:
You described them over a span of years variously as a mindless collective a treacherous warrior Jews,

 
Like a "typical muslim" I guess.


Not sure. Did you ever say where you got the racist theories from? I seem to recall being taken by surprise when you said that. I think that is what prompted Karnal to describe it as an 'Abu moment'.

Quote:
And as usual this is rubbish. 1. I described the arab tribes of the 7th century - of which the banu qurayza were but one as a "mindless collective" - in the sense that there was no real concept of the individual in society - everyone was subordinated to the tribe.


So you did in fact describe them as a mindless collective, and use that to justify Muhammad's genocide?

Were the early Muslims also a mindless collective?

Quote:
This point I made abundantly clear in the original quote that you will always conveniently edit out when you requote it.


What exactly is this point you think I am editing out? That your racist propaganda about mindless collectives is not in fact racist because it is true? That it is in fact correct to call them a mindless collective and justify their genocide because they had no individual personality? That it's not racist if you also ascribe collective traits to other groups? What makes you think that repeating it and insisting it is true makes your racism any less abhorrent?

Quote:
as I have told you a hundred times at least - "treacherous jew" was your term, not mine


Are you denying referring to them as treacherous?

Quote:
And I even made the point that the term would be racist and I would never say it.


So racism is not about what you say, but how you say it? That is, you can argue they were a mindless collective of treacherous Jews, but so long as you don't use the words together in a way that sounds familiarly racist, you are not actually being racist?

Are you saying that mealy mouthed racists, who absolutely *ARE* terrified of being seen as racist, who have latched on to the anti-Jew bandwagon to feed their religion, with their favourite rejoinder "they had no individuality or personality because they literally were a mindless collective of traitors, tough titties, off with their heads" are somehow not merely the latest incantation of the old "I'm not racist but..." excuse, so long as they really, truly believe their own absurd racist propaganda?


Strange. Everybody knows you invented the term, mindless collective.

Do you deny this?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #22 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:03pm
 
Frank wrote on Aug 19th, 2017 at 3:06pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
Thus the entire quote of mine that kicked this whole 'mindless collective' nonsense off in the first place:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 10:27am:
Thats exactly what they were. Thats exactly how 7th arab society worked - your loyalty was with the tribe, far above anything else. They were of one mind - what the tribal leaders decided, every single member decided. No individual member of the tribe would even dream of taking a position that was at odds with the tribe. It sounds ridiculous to our western individualistic minds, but thats exactly how it was.




It doesn't sound ridiculous to our Western minds that it was like that over a millennium ago.

What IS ridiculous is that it is still like that for most Muslim Arabs, even after they left Lebanon and the Middle East a couple of generations ago. That's what is ridiculous.

They are still tribal, they are still clannish, they still treat women as chattel.



But you still like Danish, no?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #23 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 6:54am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:22pm:
Do you?


I asked first FD. Can you explain this seeming backpeddling of your usual "Islam isn't a race" droning when you described calling muslims a mindless collective "racist propaganda"? I'm genuinely interested in this apparent about-face in your thinking FD.

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:22pm:
Yes Gandalf. They are my questions to you. Inspired by things you have said.


Ah inspired by things you have said. Translation: putting words into my mouth. You know what? Rather than wasting your time attempting to entrap me into saying wacist things, how about we stick to what I actually say? Here it is again:

they broke a treaty and mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment according to the customs and culture of 7th century Arab society.

oh and you can also throw in...

Thats exactly what they were [a mindless collective]. Thats exactly how 7th arab society worked - your loyalty was with the tribe, far above anything else. They were of one mind - what the tribal leaders decided, every single member decided. No individual member of the tribe would even dream of taking a position that was at odds with the tribe. It sounds ridiculous to our western individualistic minds, but thats exactly how it was.

As I said, there was no real concept of individuality - your personality was literally defined by which tribe you belonged to. And the decisions that govern the tribe are very much decisions that are represented by all the individuals who make up the tribe. Thus there really is no question of collective guilt - no matter how abhorrent we find the term today.

Tell me FD, do you reckon taking those actual words of mine and asserting that I'm really demonstrating my hideous racism towards jews and I really mean "mindless collective of treacherous jews" - would pass the pub test?

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:22pm:
I have responded plenty of times by pointing out that you don't have to target Jews to be racist.  Your propaganda in this case appears to be targetted at a particular trial grouping.


"Particular" - as in 7th century arab tribes? I'll happily accept that charge FD, but isn't it funny you are now claiming it doesn't require targeting jews - when its you who continually keeps bringing jews up. "Treacherous jews" no less. If this is now your position FD, why don't you put the words "mindless collective of treacherous arabs into my mouth? It would at least be far closer to what I actually said.

FD ever noticed that you only ever pull out the 'wacist' card when you perceive muslims or their apologists attacking jews? Now you pull out the "oh it doesn't have to be targeting jews to be wacist" card - all the while shoving the words "treacherous *JEWS*" down my mouth. Which is it FD? This campaign against me is a massive incoherent mess.
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #24 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 11:38am
 
Quote:
Translation: putting words into my mouth.


They are questions Gandalf, that just happen to demonstrate that you are more concerned with the appearance of racism rather than the substance.

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #25 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:26pm
 
Ah. Questions.
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #26 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 11:38am:
Quote:
Translation: putting words into my mouth.


They are questions Gandalf, that just happen to demonstrate that you are more concerned with the appearance of racism rather than the substance.

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?


FD, can you at least concede that the purpose of this exercise is to turn these most uncontroversial and un-racist words:

Quote:
they broke a treaty and mass execution was probably an appropriate punishment according to the customs and culture of 7th century Arab society.

...

Thats exactly what they were [a mindless collective]. Thats exactly how 7th arab society worked - your loyalty was with the tribe, far above anything else. They were of one mind - what the tribal leaders decided, every single member decided. No individual member of the tribe would even dream of taking a position that was at odds with the tribe. It sounds ridiculous to our western individualistic minds, but thats exactly how it was.

...

As I said, there was no real concept of individuality - your personality was literally defined by which tribe you belonged to. And the decisions that govern the tribe are very much decisions that are represented by all the individuals who make up the tribe. Thus there really is no question of collective guilt - no matter how abhorrent we find the term today.


into  - "MINDLESS COLLECTIVE OF TREACHEROUS JEWS!!" - GAH WAAACIST!!

?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #27 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 4:02pm
 
Quote:
FD, can you at least concede that the purpose of this exercise is to turn these most uncontroversial and un-racist words:


Uncontroversial eh? A literal mindless collective? People who literally have no individual personality of their own? Being punished collectively is not collective punishment?

Is it OK to be racist so long as you put a politically correct spin on it?

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?

Why are you so concerned with the spin rather than the substance of your argument?
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #28 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 7:49am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 4:02pm:
Were they Jewish?


FD, can you explain your latest line that "you don't have to target Jews to be racist" - while at every opportunity you are so determined to make this about jews?

Do you concede that I have never once made this about jews?

Is it in fact your only argument that I am racist against 7th century arabs?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Islam-inspired racism
Reply #29 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 9:14am
 
You are the one getting hung up on the fact that they were Jewish Gandalf. I include that question because you have argued that omitting the fact that they were Jewish makes your propaganda not racist. You keep trying to blame everything on the Jews, as if the holocaust is some inconvenience that you must work around in developing your racist propaganda to justify Muhammad's genocide.

Were they mindless?

Were they a collective?

Were they treacherous?

Were they Jewish?
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