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It's not good enough. (Read 2391 times)
issuevoter
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It's not good enough.
Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:03pm
 
Its not good enough, to say you don't believe in God . . . or you do, and then walk away.

An important factor in any discussion of beliefs is that there is no definitive way to be sure a person actually believes something, or is merely paying lip-service to it. You will have to take my word that I believe many people throughout history have merely paid lip-service to religion to stay out of trouble.

At the same time, I acknowledge great achievements have often been the result of a sense of purpose created with, and by, a common belief. Social cohesion is another biproduct of belief and purpose. For examples: Sun worship predominently unified the Egyptians, and a loss of socialist belief predominently fueled the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Atheism gained wide spread credibility in the Western World due to the horrors of the First World War. And then World War Two only re-enforced this trend which continued up until the 1970s. A very telling indication of how far these social changes had gone was when it was thought advisable to remove “by the Grace of God” from British Commonwealth coinage.

At the time of the Whitlam government, there was a sense Atheism had manifested itself in a more secular state. I propose two unlikely reasons this attitude in Australia appears to have been far in advance of other Western societies. The first goes way back to the evils of the early convict system, whose horrible inhumanity molded the character of the convicts and their children. A sense that the Church was merely a part of institutional oppression, and an inescapable cast system, took hold of a fundemental part of Australian society. It was not that God fearing religion disappeared, but it was heavily eroded, and free settlers were never able to establish religion to the extent they had in North America, New Zealand, and South Africa, were a more bountiful earth could be interpreted as the Promised Land. 

The second reason this new society was not antagonistic to Atheism was a general apathy in response to bigger, often unanswerable questions. Like the indigenous peoples before them, mere survival in Australia was hard enough. Had you asked the average Australian in 1955, what they thought about religion or politics, they were very likely to change the subject to boxing, football or horse racing. That type of apathy had already forced the Government to introduce compulsary voting during WW1, and after WW2 it would keep one political party in power for 25 years, a run almost unthinkable today in Western democracy.

But to return to WW1 Australia. Having seen what religion and politics was prepared to inflict on them, the grandchildren of the last convict generation joined a post war international skeptical view of authority, religious or political, that was already part of our national psyche. Most of these developments are parallel to the rise of public education, the labour unions, and racial tolerance, the corner stones of progressive humanism. So far, so good, if you are that way inclined.

Religious tolerance was not one of those cornerstones. When racial tolerance was extended to post war immigration, Leftist intellectuals viewed religion as a stale joke, or the drug Marx saw as a way of keeping the working class down were they belong. The new secular state (circa 1970) was a matter of social evolution, except that the children of 1940-50s Leftists, blessed with more freedom, began to expore religion – as long as it was not Christian. To be hip and groovy, it had to be Eastern, Asian, or at least Pagan. And so it was when the Beatles went to India.

Racial restriction on immigration was not removed under the aegis of Multiculturalism, it was simply a matter of fairness and the debunking of racial stigmas in a post colonial world. Leftist perspectives spread like wild fire after the so-called liberation movements of the 1960-70s, but so did religion. There were born again Christians, Hari Krishnas, Moonies, Budhists, Toaist, Mormans, Stoneage Dreamtimers and scads of lesser known cults. This new embrace of ancient beliefs did not come from the conservative side of society where it had long endured, it came from Liberalism when the Left, traditionally the most skeptical, abandoned their opposition to religion.

A recent survey suggested that religion was in decline in Australia. However, at a Citizenship ceremony last week, I noticed in the new pre-amble and oaths, a very pointed stipulation of religious tolerance, something that a secular and progressive society would never have deemed necessary prior to September 11th 2001, and the Muslim attack on the USA. The survey does not take Australia's new demographic direction into account, and the subject of religion is more in the Australian news than any period I know of. That does not indicate a decline in religion.

The secular outook in Australia goes back to when the rejects of Britain were dumped in Sydney Cove, where torture and starvation were overseen by Christian clergy. It is no surprise a merciful God did not seem believable to many. But now, the struggle to throw off centuries of hypocrisy is of little importance, and Leftists, humanists and other progressives are accepting any belief in the hope of universal tolerance. I don't believe that acceptance is wise, and here's why.

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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
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issuevoter
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Its not good enough 2.
Reply #1 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:06pm
 
Here's why, continued,

Historically, societies have failed when their central beliefs no longer unify the population with a sense of common purpose. They don't disappear overnight, but a new belief steps in to fill the void, not because they are necessarily an improvement, but because they create a sense of order and purpose. The Western World seems to be culturally ascendant as more countries industrialise, but at the same time the Western beliefs are becoming fragmented. Democracy and freedom, while often cited at the political level, do not appear to be the first concerns of Western populations, any more that religion. You have to ask yourself what unifies our societies.

Racial and religious tolerances are necessary in Western pluralistic society, but the idea that such tolerances can survive under anything other than a secular state, is fatuous to say the least. Turkey, Malaysia, and Indonesia are all countries that have some basic legislation to that effect, but they are all in the throws of falling to their majority religion. Since the days of Australian Federation, discussions of what makes Australian society different have not been greatly edifying. Mateship means nothing to materialists. But our secularism, which is better than anywhere else, is being given a backseat to the religions it is supposed to protect. Several of the religions are sworn enemies of secularism, and therefore the secular state. So then, we need to ask ourselves if we think the secular state can survive, if we only pay lip-service to it.

Apathy will not do. Society needs direction and cohesion, and that means believing in principles. Unification used be based on tribalism, language and religion. Its not that easy today. Secularism must be reaffirmed, or it will be watered down and eventually swamped by beliefs that require nothing but faith, or wishful thinking, and they are ultimately interested in their perpetuation over others. Religious tolerance cannot survive without an umbrella, and its time to strengthen the umbrella.
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Yadda
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Re: Its not good enough 2.
Reply #2 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:17pm
 




Quote:

identity politics
noun
noun: identity politics

    a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics.






issuevoter,

You are an atheist and a God hater.

Be joyous.



issuevoter,

Atheism, is your 'God'.

Atheism, is your 'religion'.

You have the society, today, that you have always dreamed of living in.

Rejoice !            /sarc off

Be happy, this is the age of mankind's expression of his fulsome vanity and wilful exuberance.

What could possibly go wrong!         Shocked




Quote:

   What are the most important things in life?  What do the
   proverbs, the wise sayings of man through the ages, have to say
   on this point?  Let us search them.  If we did so we would come
   up with the following list:

       - the basic necessities (food and shelter)
       - a good wife (or spouse)
       - good health
       - a good conscience
       - a good name
       - wisdom, understanding, good sense, spiritual knowledge,
           understanding of ourselves and life

   Now let us ask another question.  What things are most commonly
   pursued by man?  What does the common, ordinary man pursue in
   life?  We can list them:

       - temporary pleasure (gratification of appetites)
       - material possessions, wealth
       - social position, being "important"
       - friendship, friends, acceptance by a group


http://solitaryroad.com/a398.html




http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/1#1




Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.


"Glory follows virtue as if it were its shadow."

- Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Statesman




p.s.
Why did you start two threads on this topic ?
Have you been smoking your weed again ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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issuevoter
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Re: Its not good enough 2.
Reply #3 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:07pm
 
Yadda, the reason for the two posts I thought was quite clear. The forum software only allows a certain word count, so I had to split into two parts. So I take it you did not read the entire rant.

You are wrong about me being an atheist, but I am certainly not one of your kind, which includes Gandalf, Brian Ross, Sprint, and other God Freaks like Bobby and the supreme fruitcake Light Boy. There are other religious ratbags on the forum but I don't keep a list like Greg.

The problem with you lot is that you have not got an original thought between you. You rely on smelly old concepts.
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Setanta
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Re: Its not good enough 2.
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 8:31pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:07pm:
Yadda, the reason for the two posts I thought was quite clear. The forum software only allows a certain word count, so I had to split into two parts. So I take it you did not read the entire rant.


Would you like me to join them so the posts are one after the other rather than in two threads? Keep things together? (edit: I think I'll just do it)

Either way, next time, rather than two threads, make two posts in one thread.
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issuevoter
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Re: Its not good enough 2.
Reply #5 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 4:35pm
 
Setanta wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 8:31pm:
issuevoter wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:07pm:
Yadda, the reason for the two posts I thought was quite clear. The forum software only allows a certain word count, so I had to split into two parts. So I take it you did not read the entire rant.


Would you like me to join them so the posts are one after the other rather than in two threads? Keep things together? (edit: I think I'll just do it)

Either way, next time, rather than two threads, make two posts in one thread.


Thanks, that would be an improvement. Although I don't think anyone else gives a **** about the subject.
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freediver
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Re: It's not good enough.
Reply #6 - Dec 10th, 2023 at 4:55pm
 
This Topic was moved here from Atheism by freediver.
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