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Myths busted on the gender pay gap (Read 8713 times)
donincognito
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Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:02pm
 
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/nov/08/dispelling-the-myths-why-the-gender-pay-gap-does-not-reflect-the-choices-women-make?

Quote:
According to the World Economic Forum, there is no country on earth where women make as much as men for the same work. In their 2016 Global Gender Gap Report, it is estimated that, at current rates, it would take another 170 years to close the global pay gap between men and women.

The pay data for Australia certainly isn’t bucking this trend. It doesn’t matter which way you look at it, there is consensus that the gender pay gap exists. Even though the overall gap in Australia has reduced slightly over the past two years, according to data from the ABS women still make 16.2% less than men.

Yet, somehow, talking about the pay gap can still be controversial.

Too often in my job, I am called on to counter arguments about the gender pay gap being a “myth”, or that “the gender pay gap figure isn’t real; it’s a manipulated, oversimplified figure that doesn’t represent real situations”.

Earlier this month the organisation I lead, Diversity Council Australia, released an important report together with KPMG and the Workplace Gender Equality Agency (WGEA). Called She’s Price(d)less – the economics of the gender pay gap, it presents a picture of the economics underlying the gender pay gap.

We asked KPMG to decompose the factors that make up the pay gap so that we could understand exactly why it persists and what we can do about it .

The resulting report counters the myths and provides the evidence that refutes a whole range of other “reasons” put forward about women earning less because they “choose” to work part-time or take time out of the workforce to care for family members.

And my hope is that, with this evidence in hand, we can have a rational conversation based on data, sound research and with the facts in mind.

So here goes.

Women are paid less because they ‘choose’ to work part-time
Our report showed that there has been a significant decrease in the impact of part-time employment on the gender pay gap. It has actually declined from 14% to 4%, in part because of an increase in higher-paid part-time roles for women. This is good news as it means that much of the hard work that has been done on improving flexible work options is starting to pay off.

The idea of “choice” becomes questionable, however, when one considers that overwhelmingly it is still women who take on the bulk of unpaid caring roles within families. There are a number of reasons for this (historical and social norms playing a significant part) but, given that men are paid more than women, for many families it just does not make financial sense for men to work part-time as it will result in a bigger cut to the family budget.

Women are paid less because they ‘choose’ lower-paying jobs
Our report showed that industrial and occupational segregation continue to be significant contributing factors to the gender pay gap. But while occupational segregation is decreasing (i.e. the different types of roles men and women do), the impact of industrial segregation (i.e. the different industries that men and women work in like mining or healthcare) has increased.

Women are not “choosing” to work in lower paying industries but, when large numbers of women start to work in an industry, they all get paid less. As Rhaina Cohen explained in an article in the Atlantic:

A study [by the sociologists Asaf Levanon, Paula England, and Paul Allison], which examined census data from 1950 to 2000, found that, when women enter an occupation in large numbers, that job begins to pay less, even after controlling for a range of factors like skill, race and geography. Their analysis found evidence of “devaluation” – that a higher proportion of women in an occupation leads to lower pay because of the discounting of work performed by women.

So, in other words: 50 years of data proved that the more women join an industry the less everyone gets paid.

If that’s not convincing enough, Cohen also pointed to a study showing that higher the percentage of women in an industry the lower its perceived “prestige”; and a study from 2007 that found that even where men’s low-wage jobs demand far less in terms of skill, education and certifications than women’s low-wage jobs, the male-dominated ones usually command higher hourly pay.


There is more that I suggest you read, but lets face, I know you aren't going to and instead are going to make stupid arguments that are already refuted in the article.
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mothra
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #1 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:06pm
 
Read, understood, agreed with and appreciated.

You know we will be called man haters now though, right?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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donincognito
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #2 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:20pm
 
mothra wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Read, understood, agreed with and appreciated.

You know we will be called man haters now though, right?


By the muppets on this forum? Its pretty difficult to be insulted by people who have consistently shown that they are nothing but wrong all the time.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:01pm
 
I busted those myths decades ago...... basically it's all lies...

NOBODY on a wage or salary level is paid less than the required amount for that work - to do so WAS illegal (before Joey and Tones got their hands on it following in the footsteps of Wee Johnnie Howard) - where there are differences it MAY be due to salary or promotion or different work under different conditions, or for any multitude of other factors.

I've acted in films - nobody offered me Tom Cruise type salary for the work..... not relevant since it is not an issue UNLESS I was paid less than Equity rates.  No woman is paid less than the required rate for her work.

I've posted for you times many that according to a census taken here - around 2005 - the exact difference in INCOME level (not wage level) corresponded exactly to the difference in the average hours  worked by women as compared to men.

You man haters will not be content until women hold all the highest paying easy jobs and men have nothing but ditch digging ... or until women are paid a premium on the assumption that they MIGHT take time off for family etc....

Utter nonsense....

Under our wages structure - you  are paid what you EARN - not what you necessarily think you are worth, and - 7/11 rorters aside - nobody is paid less than the required amount for the same job.
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:08pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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donincognito
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:03pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I busted those myths decades ago...... basically it's all lies...


Oh really? Got a link?
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mothra
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #5 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:04pm
 
donincognito wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:03pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I busted those myths decades ago...... basically it's all lies...


Oh really? Got a link?




...
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #6 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:11pm
 
donincognito wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:20pm:
mothra wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Read, understood, agreed with and appreciated.

You know we will be called man haters now though, right?


By the muppets on this forum? Its pretty difficult to be insulted by people who have consistently shown that they are nothing but wrong all the time.



You got that right.... now understand it for true.....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #7 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:13pm
 
mothra wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:04pm:
donincognito wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:03pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I busted those myths decades ago...... basically it's all lies...


Oh really? Got a link?




https://media.tenor.com/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/tenor.gif



No intention of linking you for the thousandth time.... you don't want to listen or hear or read.... so go find the facts for yourself - and not in some blurb put out by an organisation with an agenda to push.  We are not discussing Faroffistan here and wage differences there - YOU provide me with clear situations in Australia where women are being paid less for the same work and the same hours.

It Does Not Happen!  And you can't.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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mothra
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:15pm
 
Grap, haven't you had your arse handed to you enough for one day?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:23pm
 
Hasn't happened yet - still waiting... I'm watching football... I'll get back to you in the fullness of full time...

BTW - where is all that data on all those Muslim women etc, and on all those other aspects of 'Muslim Oppression' in Australia?

Not a peep out of you lot yet.....

Accept this gift of your arse....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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donincognito
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #10 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:00am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I busted those myths decades ago...... basically it's all lies...


Whoops, sorry, I missed your edit.

Quote:
NOBODY on a wage or salary level is paid less than the required amount for that work - to do so WAS illegal (before Joey and Tones got their hands on it following in the footsteps of Wee Johnnie Howard)


Quote:
The pay gap figure is bogus because it does not reflect ‘like-for-like’ pay gaps for employees in the same or comparable roles
It must be said that while it is illegal to pay women less than men doing the same jobs, it is still happening. WGEA’s annual report shows that, even in their first year in the workforce, male graduates earn more than female graduates entering the same roles. Recent estimates from Australia suggest that for partners in top firms, the like-for-like gap is up to 5%.

Strike 1. I told you to read the article, but you didnt did you? No, of course you didnt.


Quote:
- where there are differences it MAY be due to salary or promotion or different work under different conditions, or for any multitude of other factors.

Quote:
Women don’t negotiate for better pay so it’s their fault if they’re paid less
Again, it’s not true to say women don’t ask for raises. They just don’t receive them at the same rate as men. And there is evidence that when women do negotiate, they are actually penalised.

A recent study from Cass Business School, the University of Warwick and the University of Wisconsin shows that women ask for wage rises just as often as men but men are 25% more likely to get a raise when they ask. The study collected data from 4,600 Australian workers across more than 800 employers and found no difference in the likelihood of asking between the two genders. The authors suggested that it might actually be “how” women ask, that a lack of assertiveness in negotiations is often cited as a potential reason why women might make less money than men for similar work.

As WGEA explains, negotiation is usually associated with agentic, and therefore masculine, behaviour. When employers negotiate with women, they tend to offer less and are more likely to resist influence attempts. Studies have shown that women’s reluctance to enter negotiations is partly because they are penalised more than men for doing so. The more women anticipate backlash, the less inclined they are to initiate negotiations.

In other words, women are asking for raises but, if they ask too assertively, they’re turned down for being too pushy, and if they don’t ask assertively enough, they aren’t good negotiators so they don’t get a raise.

I mean, cmon man its like you arent even trying. Or is this you trying? thats gotta be a bit depressing. Do you need someone to talk to? Lifeline can be a lot of help and beyond blue do a lot of good work in the area as well. Would you like me to get you a phone number?

Quote:
I've acted in films - nobody offered me Tom Cruise type salary for the work..... not relevant since it is not an issue UNLESS I was paid less than Equity rates.  No woman is paid less than the required rate for her work.

Oh im glad you brought up hollywood, because the gender pay gap is even worse there. Thanks for the nice segue.
Quote:
http://time.com/money/4207416/hollywood-wage-gap/
Lawrence is just the most visible example of the dismal state of pay equality in Tinseltown. A 2014 study published in the Journal of Management Inquiry entitled Age, Gender, and Compensation: A Study of Hollywood Movie Stars concluded that pay for female movie stars increases until they reach 34, then rapidly decreases (as does the number of roles for women of a certain age). For men, the peak earning year is 51, and there is no noticeable decline in wages after that. As Helaine Olen noted in Slate, that means "25-year-old Lawrence has nine years to go, while 40-year-old [Bradley] Cooper has 11."
A similar thing happens to the salaries of non-celebrity workers as well. Studies have shown that earnings peak for women between the ages of 34 and 39, while wages continue to rise steadily for men until around age 50.It's worth pausing here to note that many of the traditional justifications for the wage gap just don't hold up in Tinseltown. Actors and actresses fulfill the same job in the same time frame, using the same set of tools. You can't attribute the gap to differences in productivity, strength, or women being less skilled as performers (sorry, Aaron Sorkin).


Quote:
I've posted for you times many that according to a census taken here - around 2005 - the exact difference in INCOME level (not wage level) corresponded exactly to the difference in the average hours  worked by women as compared to men.

Jeez, fortunately we have data thats better than more than a decade old, and hey, what do you know, thats what they have used in these studies. Im willing to be the actual scientists who did these studies corrected for a lot more errors than what you did.

Quote:
Sex discrimination in the report accounts for everything that is left after all the other factors that have an impact on the gender pay gap, such as age, tenure, time out of the workforce, occupation, industry, part-time work and sector, have been taken into account. This means that more than a third of the gender pay gap is the result of gender discrimination and unconscious bias.
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donincognito
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #11 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:01am
 
so basically,

Quote:
There is more that I suggest you read, but lets face, I know you aren't going to and instead are going to make stupid arguments that are already refuted in the article.


I can predict the future. I should play lotto.

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donincognito
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #12 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:04am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 8:13pm:
No intention of linking you for the thousandth time.... you don't want to listen or hear or read.... so go find the facts for yourself - and not in some blurb put out by an organisation with an agenda to push.  We are not discussing Faroffistan here and wage differences there - YOU provide me with clear situations in Australia where women are being paid less for the same work and the same hours.

It Does Not Happen!  And you can't.


There were links in the article to the exact thing you are looking for. This is why I suggested you should actually read the article, but no, you proved me correct in your stupid stupid arrogance of assuming you were correct, when yet again, you are wrong. Stop being wrong so much. Its sort of sad to see you flailing around.

But, just to help you out

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-22/gender-pay-gap-alive-and-thriving-in-australia/7775244
Quote:
Mr Liveris claims top accounting firms including PriceWaterHouse Coopers, EY and Deloitte are paying men and women differently for the same roles with pay gaps ranging from 1 to 5 per cent.

"Even at their highest level, at the partnership level, they were finding about a 5 per cent gender pay gap in a like-for-like basis," Mr Liveris said.


There.
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #13 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:37am
 
Your usual inclination to label anyone else stupid, etc, shows you to be the cretin you are in reality.

I have posted times many a very solid refutation of the nonsense that makes up the 'gender wage gap' - and it is clear, from any rational review, that such a gap does not exist.

Now try another approach, sonny.

I'm not interested in twisted and distorted 'studies' by groups directly interested in arriving at the position they wish... I deal only with facts... and I've laid out those facts time and time again.

If you wish to disagree, save your puerile personal attacks, and replace them with facts.

Now - try looking at this 'study' you quote - and give me a full rendition of the actual figures, the actual laws in place HERE in Australia, and then tell me that women are being ripped off in their work.

If you have any argument - it is over AWE's - and NOT on any gender basis...  in case you missed (you obviously did) - there are currently MILLIONS of people doing it hard out there... who actually gives a damn about distorted and self-serving studies that continue to say, without solid foundation, that women as a group are being ripped off?

Then try showing me ONE clear example of where women doing exactly the same job in the same grade - outside of contracted work - are NOT being paid the proper level.

SHOW me - and save your personal attacks for someone who actually cares about your emotion-based nonsense.

If you cannot do that - save your personal cretinous vitriol for someone who might be influenced by it.. obviously I am not.

Better still - leave the field to those with a mind in their head....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads
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Re: Myths busted on the gender pay gap
Reply #14 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 7:43am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:37am:
Your usual inclination to label anyone else stupid, etc, shows you to be the cretin you are in reality.

I have posted times many a very solid refutation of the nonsense that makes up the 'gender wage gap' - and it is clear, from any rational review, that such a gap does not exist.

Now try another approach, sonny.

I'm not interested in twisted and distorted 'studies' by groups directly interested in arriving at the position they wish... I deal only with facts... and I've laid out those facts time and time again.

If you wish to disagree, save your puerile personal attacks, and replace them with facts.

Now - try looking at this 'study' you quote - and give me a full rendition of the actual figures, the actual laws in place HERE in Australia, and then tell me that women are being ripped off in their work.

If you have any argument - it is over AWE's - and NOT on any gender basis...  in case you missed (you obviously did) - there are currently MILLIONS of people doing it hard out there... who actually gives a damn about distorted and self-serving studies that continue to say, without solid foundation, that women as a group are being ripped off?

Then try showing me ONE clear example of where women doing exactly the same job in the same grade - outside of contracted work - are NOT being paid the proper level.

SHOW me - and save your personal attacks for someone who actually cares about your emotion-based nonsense.

If you cannot do that - save your personal cretinous vitriol for someone who might be influenced by it.. obviously I am not.

Better still - leave the field to those with a mind in their head....



Best of luck with that Grap.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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