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Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges (Read 1350 times)
red baron
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Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:16pm
 
Malcolm Turnbull has just done something extremely meaningful

He is authorising the Army to takeover managing terrorist sieges

Nothing whatsoever against the Police team who broke the Man Monis siege but management wise it was a debacle  Ex Commissioner Scipione and Deputy Commissioner Catherine Burn should hang their heads  shame at the coroner's finding on the Man Monis siege

Now the Army's S.A.S. will likely be involved in such a scenario and those blokes don't f...k around

This is a great turn of events and will make our Nation much more secure

Let the Police stick to Policing and let expert groups like the S.A.S. manage sieges, it's what they're good at

PS The Police on the ground did a brilliant job when they were finally allowed to do it from hapless masters

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #1 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:26pm
 
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #2 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:27pm
 
Pretty weak , it's just the Army . The RAAF gets new planes but won't have tactical operations on targets .  Navy is within range in capital cities or the bush to 166kms.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #3 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:38pm
 
should have done this ages ago
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #4 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:43pm
 
Move over Alien Verses Predator ... coming to everyone's screens :  Army Verses Bikies
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« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:50pm by ___ »  
 
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #5 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:50pm
 
Does _ have a name?

I have one for you, The Riddler?

Seems like a fit, still working on your post which has what to do with my thread's subject
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #6 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:56pm
 
Terror is a made up term to fit an agenda.
A bully within a kindergarten is a terror siege.

This is just the right's next goosestep in making Australia a military dictatorship.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #7 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:56pm
 
Will they have a director and a make-up department?
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #8 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:24pm
 
_ a.k.a. The Riddler...please give me a freaking break Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #9 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:25pm
 
red baron wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:16pm:
Malcolm Turnbull has just done something extremely meaningful

He is authorising the Army to takeover managing terrorist sieges




That's nice, Red, but we never understood the Martin Place siege to be terrorism at the time. I doubt the army is going to involve itself in every siege involving a lone gunman.

But what do you mean by finally? Apart from Man Monis, we've never had a terrorist siege in Australia - if that is indeed what this was.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #10 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:26pm
 
When you support goose stepping to a military takeover, you don't deserve a break.

The army is for killing unarmed civilians in other countries ... not Australia.

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #11 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:28pm
 
- Riddler, was it an agenda when Muslims ran amok in London murdering people with knives?

Yes guess it was....an I.S.I.S. Agenda
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #12 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:32pm
 
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:26pm:
When you support goose stepping to a military takeover, you don't deserve a break.

The army is for killing unarmed civilians in other countries ... not Australia.



Sure, ____ , but they could make themselves useful. They do a bit of disaster recovery every now and then. Why not send them in when a plane gets hijacked or something?

It hasn't happened in Australia yet, but the army has plenty of time on its hands to train up.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #13 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
red baron wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:50pm:
Does _ have a name?

I have one for you, The Riddler?

Seems like a fit, still working on your post which has what to do with my thread's subject



greenslime
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #14 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:39pm
 
The Riddler  a.k.a. -  is living in fairyland and sees our own Army as some sort of Nazi threat

Our S.A.S. is a highly trained disciplined unit which would I dare say would have controlled the Man Monis siege from a different point of view entirely to the Management of the NSW Police which handled the whole thing is something akin to the Keystone Cops

The Police on the ground knew how to do their job it was at the 'top' and right at the 'top' that we were subjected to glaring incompetence which was born out in the Coroner's findings into the seige
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #15 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:41pm
 
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
Move over Alien Verses Predator ... coming to everyone's screens :  Army Verses Bikies


Well I could say from experience, that whenever Bikers & their Grub ilk threaten people, because they thrive on being 'anti-law'.
When they are threatened back with 'Military' action, because they carry firearms. They suddenly shut up and are as nice and forgiving as sweet cherry pie.

Imagine, a tank rolls up to their hide-out and  says "Surrender or Die?!"
Grin

Bikers are mixed in with Terrorism these days. Not much difference between them in what they do to innocent people.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #16 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:44pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:32pm:
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:26pm:
When you support goose stepping to a military takeover, you don't deserve a break.

The army is for killing unarmed civilians in other countries ... not Australia.



Sure, ____ , but they could make themselves useful. They do a bit of disaster recovery every now and then. Why not send them in when a plane gets hijacked or something?

It hasn't happened in Australia yet, but the army has plenty of time on its hands to train up.



Readying Australia's defences for China V US war breakout over the South China Sea can be sidelined for hypothetical terrorists scenarios. Sounds like a plan.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #17 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:44pm
 
It's all nonsense.

What 'training'?

You point a rifle, look down the telescope, and cap the terrorist's black ass.

'Training'.

Give me a break.





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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #18 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm
 
red baron wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
The Riddler  a.k.a. -  is living in fairyland and sees our own Army as some sort of Nazi threat

Our S.A.S. is a highly trained disciplined unit which would I dare say would have controlled the Man Monis siege from a different point of view entirely to the Management of the NSW Police which handled the whole thing is something akin to the Keystone Cops

The Police on the ground knew how to do their job it was at the 'top' and right at the 'top' that we were subjected to glaring incompetence which was born out in the Coroner's findings into the seige


What the documents reveal about killings of unarmed Afghans

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/unarmed-men,-children-among-casualties-of-...


Why restrict army murdering civilians to overseas.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #19 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm
 
At the cafe the finger-trigger skills were seen , a bit different from nukes where a key is inserted then rotated with a wrist action.  Triggers also work Leopard tank guns and these smokers.
Colt M4 Carbine: NSW riot squad police to be armed with machine guns
Jun 8, 2017 - NSW riot squad police to be armed with military-style machine guns. .
--
Army trigger skills are up there with the Boer war and First Fleet levels.  Maybe tennis is on the skids but Oz does ammo with the best .  Experts are taking xrays of Ned Kelly's armour to work out how he did it .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #20 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:48pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:44pm:
It's all nonsense.

What 'training'?

You point a rifle, look down the telescope, and cap the terrorist's black ass.

'Training'.

Give me a break.


That's what Putin does, Herb. It usually results in the hostages getting capped too, dear.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #21 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:49pm
 
JaSinner wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:41pm:
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
Move over Alien Verses Predator ... coming to everyone's screens :  Army Verses Bikies


Well I could say from experience, that whenever Bikers & their Grub ilk threaten people, because they thrive on being 'anti-law'.
When they are threatened back with 'Military' action, because they carry firearms. They suddenly shut up and are as nice and forgiving as sweet cherry pie.

Imagine, a tank rolls up to their hide-out and  says "Surrender or Die?!"
Grin

Bikers are mixed in with Terrorism these days. Not much difference between them in what they do to innocent people.



After the Bikies, who will the army be murdering. Unionists illegally striking, Environmentalists, illegally protesting a coal train.

Where does this end?
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #22 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:52pm
 
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:49pm:
JaSinner wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:41pm:
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
Move over Alien Verses Predator ... coming to everyone's screens :  Army Verses Bikies


Well I could say from experience, that whenever Bikers & their Grub ilk threaten people, because they thrive on being 'anti-law'.
When they are threatened back with 'Military' action, because they carry firearms. They suddenly shut up and are as nice and forgiving as sweet cherry pie.

Imagine, a tank rolls up to their hide-out and  says "Surrender or Die?!"
Grin

Bikers are mixed in with Terrorism these days. Not much difference between them in what they do to innocent people.



After the Bikies, who will the army be murdering. Unionists illegally striking, Environmentalists, illegally protesting a coal train.

Where does this end?


It doesn't, ___. Red and Herbie want soldiers patrolling the streets taking out anyone who doesn't put their bins out straight.

Apart from Red and Herbie, I mean. They have the right to not be offended.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #23 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:53pm
 
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:49pm:
JaSinner wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:41pm:
___ wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
Move over Alien Verses Predator ... coming to everyone's screens :  Army Verses Bikies


Well I could say from experience, that whenever Bikers & their Grub ilk threaten people, because they thrive on being 'anti-law'.
When they are threatened back with 'Military' action, because they carry firearms. They suddenly shut up and are as nice and forgiving as sweet cherry pie.

Imagine, a tank rolls up to their hide-out and  says "Surrender or Die?!"
Grin

Bikers are mixed in with Terrorism these days. Not much difference between them in what they do to innocent people.



After the Bikies, who will the army be murdering. Unionists illegally striking, Environmentalists, illegally protesting a coal train.

Where does this end?


Well yes, we Southerners have to get justice back from those Yankees  Wink
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #24 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 3:55pm
 
Well the last female Military that I slept with (seems long ago), while I was a Nurse - chained me to my bed and had complete 'control'.  Cool
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #25 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 4:05pm
 
Police commander :" Look , he's holding a pistol".
Army commander : " Load . Aim ."
Police : "Wait on , what about the civilians?"
Army : "Fire".
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #26 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 4:06pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 4:05pm:
Police commander :" Look , he's holding a pistol".
Army commander : " Load . Aim ."
Police : "Wait on , what about the civilians?"
Army : "Fire".

Grin
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #27 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:10pm
 
red baron wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 2:16pm:
Malcolm Turnbull has just done something extremely meaningful

He is authorising the Army to takeover managing terrorist sieges

Nothing whatsoever against the Police team who broke the Man Monis siege but management wise it was a debacle  Ex Commissioner Scipione and Deputy Commissioner Catherine Burn should hang their heads  shame at the coroner's finding on the Man Monis siege

Now the Army's S.A.S. will likely be involved in such a scenario and those blokes don't f...k around

This is a great turn of events and will make our Nation much more secure

Let the Police stick to Policing and let expert groups like the S.A.S. manage sieges, it's what they're good at

PS The Police on the ground did a brilliant job when they were finally allowed to do it from hapless masters


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  The Police are trained to control people and where possible, save lives.  The SASR are trained to kill people.    There is quite a difference.  The first assumes that everybody is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.  The second assumes that the people in the siege are all guilty until proven innocent.

Is this a good thing?  No.   The Police should always control a siege situation.  Doesn't matter what forces they use, it should be the police in control.   The Army are only another tool in their chest which they can bring out when and if the matter requires it.

In the UK, the Police control the situation, the Army are only called in if necessary.   If they are called in, martial law is declared.  That enables the military to shoot to kill if necessary.  Once the siege is resolved, all members of the Army unit involved are then arrested and placed on trial for manslaughter.   Their use of force is examined by the Courts and usually declared lawful and they are acquitted. 

Before this announcement, the Army was always available to help the Police.  The Police however were unsure of their legal position and how they could use the Army.   The Army always kept a Squadron of the SASR trained in counter-terrorism tactics.   However, they were in Perth.   With the 2000 Olympics and other special events, the Counter-Terrorism Squadron was deployed to where the event was occurring, "just in case".   What this announcement will require is the stationing in each state a detachment from the Counter-Terrorism Squadron in order that response times can be shortened.   It will also require changes to the laws of accountability.

Is this a good thing?  I don't believe so.   The Police will become sidelined and all their skills at negotiation and management will be ignored in the normal military option that all problems look like a nail when you only have a hammer to deal with them.   I have no desire to see Australia become the military's shooting gallery.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #28 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:14pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 4:05pm:
Police commander :" Look , he's holding a pistol".
Army commander : " Load . Aim ."
Police : "Wait on , what about the civilians?"
Army : "Fire".


Which should and would read as:

Quote:
Police commander :" Look , he's holding a pistol".
Army commander : " Load! Action!"
Police : "Wait on , what about the civilians?"
Army : "Group: Anti-Terrorist Unit!  Range: x metres. "Indication: Axis of Advance. Target; Terrorist holding pistol. Fire at will!"

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #29 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm
 
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #30 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:20pm
 
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.



it's so that Turdball and Mutton can claim they're doing something.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #31 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:22pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:20pm:
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.



it's so that Turdball and Mutton can claim they're doing something.

No body believes they do anything anymore, least of all themselves.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #32 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:24pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:14pm:
. Fire at will!"


If you use first names the soldiers emotions come into play and they may know a will from school , maybe a relative or footie player they followed anyway it's not very military . You need to watch more action flicks.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #33 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:25pm
 
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.


Because it looks better to be seen to be doing something, no matter how misguided, than it is to be seen to be doing nothing, is an old political adage.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #34 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:29pm
 
Malcolm 's not doing much then. North Korea executed five senior security officials for making false reports that "enraged" leader Kim Jong Un, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported Monday. The five were killed with anti-aircraft guns, the National Intelligence Service said in a private briefing to lawmakers
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #35 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:56pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:24pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:14pm:
. Fire at will!"


If you use first names the soldiers emotions come into play and they may know a will from school , maybe a relative or footie player they followed anyway it's not very military . You need to watch more action flicks.


The Army has set procedures for most situations.  In this case, they are applying standard operating procedures and GRIT (Group, Range, Indication, Target) to tell their "Operatives" (what ever happened to plain old "Trooper" or "Soldier?) what to do, when to do it and what they are intended to shoot at...
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #36 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:08pm
 
Yeah they don't use first names for Operatives do they . You messed that one up .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #37 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:13pm
 
The army should get their M777 lightweight towed howitzers out.
Many problems solved. How long would the shells take to travel 12km?

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #38 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:18pm
 
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces ....


It beats me. It's bullshit of course.

It's going to mean having army personnel hanging around our metropolitan police stations waiting for a terrorist incident to occur.

What's the point when all that's needed at the police stations are racks of sniper rifles, canisters of tear gas, stun grenades, etc. ... and the police being competent in the use of these things.

The decisions surrounding the Lindt Cafe Man Monis event all hinged on whether or not he had a suicide bomb on him.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #39 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:51pm
 
Herr Bert should be appointed Australian anti-terrorism Czar. They would seek refuge at the farthest point from Australia to avoid the monotonous blather from Herr Bert.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #40 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 7:56pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:20pm:
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.



it's so that Turdball and Mutton can claim they're doing something.


Correct.

It's bullshit with a cherry on top.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #41 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:07pm
 
The reason for doing a suicide is the pilgrim-class ticket to top heaven or Firdaws .  Only the most pious get in and bopping a cop may not be enough .  But shooting a soldier is the way to go. (Maybe equal to zapping an armed woman ).  Troops at a siege may increase the amount of shooting by the terrorist / customer .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #42 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:20pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:51pm:
Herr Bert should be appointed Australian anti-terrorism Czar. They would seek refuge at the farthest point from Australia to avoid the monotonous blather from Herr Bert.


The most glaring fraud with the anti-terrorism strategies is that while it's all tough-talk and posturing with guns, and soldiers standing stiffly to attention in uniform at one end of the spectrum, at the other end it's all a political funk that sees our politicians ingratiating with the Muslim Community to the extent of pretending that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

Islam is exonerated from any blame.

And our politicians dare not reduce the influx of Muslims, let alone put a halt to it.

The whole pretentious pantomime is a deceptive fraud designed to pick up votes while at the same time being careful not to offside the Muslim community.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #43 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:20pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 7:56pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:20pm:
jeez wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
Any guesses as to why we have to bring in the forces, nothing to do with Islam then.



it's so that Turdball and Mutton can claim they're doing something.


Correct.

It's bullshit with a cherry on top.



It's a good thing they have been called in, it's a bugger it had to come to this, a simple solution in the early days would have been to shoot any muslims from entering.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #44 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:25pm
 
Bad idea. The only troops that should ever be used inside Au during peacetime are the engineers during natural disasters, they should not be deployed against people.
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nu ninda an ezzateni watar ma ekuteni
 
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #45 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:29pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:25pm:
Bad idea. The only troops that should ever be used inside Au during peacetime are the engineers during natural disasters, they should not be deployed against people.


Don't worry, they won't be.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #46 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:30pm
 
Diggers protected all Australian virgins during the Battle of Brisbane.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #47 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:31pm
 
Set, would you like to see Vic Pol try do this?

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #48 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:34pm
 
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Set, would you like to see Vic Pol try do this?



No Gordy, I wouldn't, but I hope they have the training if required to.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #49 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:37pm
 
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:13pm:
The army should get their M777 lightweight towed howitzers out.
Many problems solved. How long would the shells take to travel 12km?



I hope there is no incident near your kids schools when they decide to use you plan.
(yes I know it was tongue in cheek, but still, I hope I never see the day artillery is lobbed on Au cities.)
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #50 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:39pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Set, would you like to see Vic Pol try do this?



No Gordy, I wouldn't, but I hope they have the training if required to.


Remember, local police will always be in control and give the specialist teams authorisation to go in.

The teams are just the tool.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #51 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:44pm
 
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Setanta wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Set, would you like to see Vic Pol try do this?



No Gordy, I wouldn't, but I hope they have the training if required to.


Remember, local police will always be in control and give the specialist teams authorisation to go in.

The teams are just the tool.



We have the various police forces for internal security and the armed forces for external. I have no probs with an ex SAS Colonel or two training police but they live by different rules. The armed forces should not be used internally except in a non military role, eg engineers.

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #52 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:47pm
 
The elephant at the cafe was the complete absence of psychology , communication , plan , responding to opportunity, negotiation , confidence building , subterfuge or anything beyond drinking coffee and waiting for deaths . Bullets were there by the bagful and aren't the problem. They get $millions and we got no bang for the buck until too late.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #53 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm
 
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.

Specialist training for a select handful of police would never be enough.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #54 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:50pm
 
Setanta wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:44pm:
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Setanta wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:34pm:
Gordon wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Set, would you like to see Vic Pol try do this?



No Gordy, I wouldn't, but I hope they have the training if required to.


Remember, local police will always be in control and give the specialist teams authorisation to go in.

The teams are just the tool.



We have the various police forces for internal security and the armed forces for external. I have no probs with an ex SAS Colonel or two training police but they live by different rules. The armed forces should not be used internally except in a non military role, eg engineers.



Actually there had always been the capability to call in the army, a team was on standby for the Lindt siege but not called. 

This is just formalising the relationship between the different organisations.

The army guys are the best of the best, I just see it as using the best tool for the job. Let them kick the doors down so long as local police call the shots.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #55 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:59pm
 
Isn't that confusing the Siege of Lindt with the Siege of Mosul?
The gunman was 1 man not the Vietcong .
Maybe what's needed is another unit , a group of psychiatrist - psychologists and advertising men with a few clues about handling nut jobs and Islamic motives .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #56 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:02pm
 
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.

Specialist training for a select handful of police would never be enough.


Terrorism is not even police business. It's not civilian crime that is being anticipated, but military action from a political enemy.

During the invasion of Iraq our soldiers were 'advised' not to wear their uniforms in public because reports had come in saying that soldiers in uniform had been attacked in the streets by women wearing hijabs.

And what did the Australian authorities decide?

Arrest these bitches?

Hell no! That might offend the Muslim Community.

Far better to simply strip our soldiers of their uniforms when they were commuting between their barracks and home.

The contempt I feel for Australia's leaders is almost beyond measure.


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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #57 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:04pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:59pm:
Isn't that confusing the Siege of Lindt with the Siege of Mosul?
The gunman was 1 man not the Vietcong .
Maybe what's needed is another unit , a group of psychiatrist - psychologists and advertising men with a few clues about handling nut jobs and Islamic motives .


Don't try to understand 'em just rope and throw and brand 'em. Soon we'll be ...
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #58 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:10pm
 
Cops get shot at by crims without it being "military" . The cafe had other bodies in it who needed protection , not the terrorist being protected . But even he could be manuevered by smart tactics . Without 3 deaths .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #59 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:11pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:02pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.

Specialist training for a select handful of police would never be enough.


Terrorism is not even police business. It's not civilian crime that is being anticipated, but military action from a political enemy.

During the invasion of Iraq our soldiers were 'advised' not to wear their uniforms in public because reports had come in saying that soldiers in uniform had been attacked in the streets by women wearing hijabs.

And what did the Australian authorities decide?

Arrest these bitches?

Hell no! That might offend the Muslim Community.

Far better to simply strip our soldiers of their uniforms when they were commuting between their barracks and home.

The contempt I feel for Australia's leaders is almost beyond measure.





You don't need any of that - just one man is needed:

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #60 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:15pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:08pm:
Yeah they don't use first names for Operatives do they . You messed that one up .


What are you blathering on about?   Roll Eyes
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #61 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Firing at will the poor beggar
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #62 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #63 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Firing at will the poor beggar


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Appears we have another fool here.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #64 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:26pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes


Going on Lindt cafe : neither , that's the problem.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #65 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:14am
 
As before many times - only under specific rules and only when the local authority accepts that the situation is beyond their control and  capabilities.  There is not, and cannot be, some automatic change to military intrusion to resolve a situation, and any blanket acceptance that the military should do so is fraught with many issues....

You need to know the rules of engagement... the military component will not take overall control and command of the situation (though I have concerns over the Mad Man Monis handling at the senior police level - why would the senior officer(s) go home to sleep?  What do they imagine their job is?  Obviously not to lead from the front).

The situation will still remain that the local authority will relinquish control of the situation to the military ONLY when the situation is beyond the local authority's capabilities.

On another slant - the Army can NOT take control of situations without civil approval .. to permit such action is a very dangerous issue for OUR society.

(I'm on record here and elsewhere as saying that I have no 'ideology', only duty first and the preservation of THIS realm from all enemies, both domestic or foreign)...
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #66 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:24am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

[highlight]The SASR are trained to kill,[/highlight] not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Yes - but only when the situation is clearly out of control.. the on-the-job action (based on training) is controlled by officers who exercise judgement, in co-ordination with civil authorities (in siege situations) - as to whether or not the 'kill' option is the only one left on the table.

In the Iranian Embassy situation, a hostage had already been executed.... thus all bets were off and the eight man intrusion team were on 'shoot-to-kill'.  The reasons for that are not just containing the situation, but containing ANY possibility that explosive devices could be triggered by any live terr.  Same thing happened with the Gibraltar IRA incident - the NEED to prevent triggering explosive devices over-rules the 'need' to contain the situation, and the only way to do that is to ensure there are no terrs left to set off a bomb.

That is why highly trained military personnel should only be used in extreme circumstances.

To use them in containable situations is to run a very big risk of unnecessary death, but it's a hard call.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #67 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:55am
 
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #68 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:10am
 
is Turnbull using the soldiers for a photo op? I can't wait to see if the right wingers start abusing him for it. Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #69 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am
 
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #70 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:59am
 
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am:
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.



the guy in the middle on the top photo looks like he's thinking of shooting him Grin Grin
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #71 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 10:21am
 
The unbelieving woman hostage thinks so too.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #72 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 7:08pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:59am:
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am:
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.



the guy in the middle on the top photo looks like he's thinking of shooting him Grin Grin



He looks like he's got anger management issues.
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #73 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 7:46pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Undoubtedly the SASR
Wipe the terrorists off the face of the earth.
Then arrest the family for deportation or exicution as co-conspirators
Then level the mosque and arrest the imrans as co-conspirators.
Then arrest ever muzzo who stick their bums in the air for mohamid to have a sniff of.

Sounds like a plan

Bring them on

Over to you bwyannnnnnnnnnnnnn the muzzo
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #74 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 8:07pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:24am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Yes - but only when the situation is clearly out of control.. the on-the-job action (based on training) is controlled by officers who exercise judgement, in co-ordination with civil authorities (in siege situations) - as to whether or not the 'kill' option is the only one left on the table.

In the Iranian Embassy situation, a hostage had already been executed.... thus all bets were off and the eight man intrusion team were on 'shoot-to-kill'.  The reasons for that are not just containing the situation, but containing ANY possibility that explosive devices could be triggered by any live terr.  Same thing happened with the Gibraltar IRA incident - the NEED to prevent triggering explosive devices over-rules the 'need' to contain the situation, and the only way to do that is to ensure there are no terrs left to set off a bomb.

That is why highly trained military personnel should only be used in extreme circumstances.

To use them in containable situations is to run a very big risk of unnecessary death, but it's a hard call.


That was the previous theory, Grappler.  The new theory is that the military are in control of the situation, once the police identify it as a "Terrorist incident".   The military, while disciplined, is also prone to shooting first, asking questions if at all, later.   The military view of any situation is how do I solve it with firearms.   The police view is how do they solve it, perhaps if necessary, with firearms.   While I hope we would not see the military failing to exercise control over their troops, it is always a possibility, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown.

What I think is going to happen, what I hope is going to happen is that they will work out a better way than what I have read about in the MSM being proposed by the Government.   As I've said, the Police should be Strategic control.  They can hand Operational control over to the Military for short periods where they can use their Tactical advantages,  utilise their superior firepower and then take back the Operational control, once the situation has been resolved.   However, at the moment it appears that the Military will have Strategic and Operational and Tactical control.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #75 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 8:08pm
 
Valkie wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 7:46pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Undoubtedly the SASR
Wipe the terrorists off the face of the earth.
Then arrest the family for deportation or exicution as co-conspirators
Then level the mosque and arrest the imrans as co-conspirators.
Then arrest ever muzzo who stick their bums in the air for mohamid to have a sniff of.

Sounds like a plan

Bring them on

Over to you bwyannnnnnnnnnnnnn the muzzo


...
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #76 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 8:12pm
 
All we need is one man with a 0.44 Magnum:

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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #77 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:47pm
 
And 2 bullets after Monis had his shot after 20 hours of no policing .
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #78 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 8:12pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:47pm:
And 2 bullets after Monis had his shot after 20 hours of no policing .


Should have shot him as he arrived.

Or better still.
Stop any of this sick CULT from ever coming to Australia in  the first place.

Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of any worth or good has come from importing this desease into our country, or any country.

It brings with it, murder, crime, sick pedophiles, sick twisted CULT practices and welfare fraud.

Even muzzos hate muzzos.
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Mid-North Coast NSW
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #79 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 12:17am
 
The siege was managed according to the rules..... the rules are subject to change... nobody expected the deaths of innocents.... though the actions of some senior police were rightly condemned.... you do NOT leave the scene to go home and cop a few zzzs... you LEAD by being there...

That's what comes of promoting sheilas into sensitive jobs based on political grounds, that require balls... sorry to say...

How the Hell does a senior police officer expect ground zero officers to stay alert and on the job while she wanders off to sleep at home?  What kind of leadership signal is that??

Me? At her rank I'd be demanding to be first through the door - I could have done that in my mid-late 40's - but guess what - the senior enlisted rank would refuse since HIS men can do it better and are up to scratch in their training.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.... too much PC - let's see how many women are in the entry teams if and when the military take over a situation... and how many are actually in command at the time....

Guess I'm a chauvinist.... sorry 'bout that....
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red baron
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Australian Politics

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Blue Mountains
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #80 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 3:11pm
 
Unfortunately the Man Monis siege was a textbook on 'how not to do it'

Shame in our society that it takes a major f...k up before they get the process right
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Brian Ross
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Bored with racism/Islamophobia/
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #81 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 6:14pm
 
Valkie wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 8:12pm:
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:47pm:
And 2 bullets after Monis had his shot after 20 hours of no policing .


Should have shot him as he arrived.

Or better still.
Stop any of this sick CULT from ever coming to Australia in  the first place.

Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of any worth or good has come from importing this desease into our country, or any country.

It brings with it, murder, crime, sick pedophiles, sick twisted CULT practices and welfare fraud.

Even muzzos hate muzzos.


...

Move along folks, move along.  Just Valkie displaying his Islamophobia again, nothing of interest here at all.  Move along.   Roll Eyes
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