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Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges (Read 1663 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #60 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:15pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 6:08pm:
Yeah they don't use first names for Operatives do they . You messed that one up .


What are you blathering on about?   Roll Eyes
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Answer the question, FD.   How many Muslims do you know personally?

I don't know Brian. I only know the religious views of a fraction of the people I know.
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chimera
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #61 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Firing at will the poor beggar
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Brian Ross
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #62 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes

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Answer the question, FD.   How many Muslims do you know personally?

I don't know Brian. I only know the religious views of a fraction of the people I know.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #63 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Firing at will the poor beggar


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Appears we have another fool here.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes
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Answer the question, FD.   How many Muslims do you know personally?

I don't know Brian. I only know the religious views of a fraction of the people I know.
WWW  
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chimera
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #64 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:26pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes


Going on Lindt cafe : neither , that's the problem.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #65 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:14am
 
As before many times - only under specific rules and only when the local authority accepts that the situation is beyond their control and  capabilities.  There is not, and cannot be, some automatic change to military intrusion to resolve a situation, and any blanket acceptance that the military should do so is fraught with many issues....

You need to know the rules of engagement... the military component will not take overall control and command of the situation (though I have concerns over the Mad Man Monis handling at the senior police level - why would the senior officer(s) go home to sleep?  What do they imagine their job is?  Obviously not to lead from the front).

The situation will still remain that the local authority will relinquish control of the situation to the military ONLY when the situation is beyond the local authority's capabilities.

On another slant - the Army can NOT take control of situations without civil approval .. to permit such action is a very dangerous issue for OUR society.

(I'm on record here and elsewhere as saying that I have no 'ideology', only duty first and the preservation of THIS realm from all enemies, both domestic or foreign)...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #66 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:24am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

[highlight]The SASR are trained to kill,[/highlight] not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Yes - but only when the situation is clearly out of control.. the on-the-job action (based on training) is controlled by officers who exercise judgement, in co-ordination with civil authorities (in siege situations) - as to whether or not the 'kill' option is the only one left on the table.

In the Iranian Embassy situation, a hostage had already been executed.... thus all bets were off and the eight man intrusion team were on 'shoot-to-kill'.  The reasons for that are not just containing the situation, but containing ANY possibility that explosive devices could be triggered by any live terr.  Same thing happened with the Gibraltar IRA incident - the NEED to prevent triggering explosive devices over-rules the 'need' to contain the situation, and the only way to do that is to ensure there are no terrs left to set off a bomb.

That is why highly trained military personnel should only be used in extreme circumstances.

To use them in containable situations is to run a very big risk of unnecessary death, but it's a hard call.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Bobby
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #67 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:55am
 
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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John Smith
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #68 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:10am
 
is Turnbull using the soldiers for a photo op? I can't wait to see if the right wingers start abusing him for it. Cheesy Cheesy
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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chimera
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #69 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am
 
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.
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John Smith
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #70 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:59am
 
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am:
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.



the guy in the middle on the top photo looks like he's thinking of shooting him Grin Grin
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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chimera
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #71 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 10:21am
 
The unbelieving woman hostage thinks so too.
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Sir Bobby
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #72 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 7:08pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:59am:
chimera wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 9:57am:
No they're in burqa and hijab.  He's just showing his negotiating skills.



the guy in the middle on the top photo looks like he's thinking of shooting him Grin Grin



He looks like he's got anger management issues.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Valkie
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #73 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 7:46pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Undoubtedly the SASR
Wipe the terrorists off the face of the earth.
Then arrest the family for deportation or exicution as co-conspirators
Then level the mosque and arrest the imrans as co-conspirators.
Then arrest ever muzzo who stick their bums in the air for mohamid to have a sniff of.

Sounds like a plan

Bring them on

Over to you bwyannnnnnnnnnnnnn the muzzo
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Finally - Army to takeover mgt of terror seiges
Reply #74 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 8:07pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:24am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Black Orchid wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Anything to do with terrorism should me handled by the military.   They are trained en masse for such things.


So, you don't think that just might constitute a problem?

The SASR are trained to kill, not to control.   Police are trained to control, not kill.  Which would you prefer to see in charge of a Terrorist incident?   Roll Eyes



Yes - but only when the situation is clearly out of control.. the on-the-job action (based on training) is controlled by officers who exercise judgement, in co-ordination with civil authorities (in siege situations) - as to whether or not the 'kill' option is the only one left on the table.

In the Iranian Embassy situation, a hostage had already been executed.... thus all bets were off and the eight man intrusion team were on 'shoot-to-kill'.  The reasons for that are not just containing the situation, but containing ANY possibility that explosive devices could be triggered by any live terr.  Same thing happened with the Gibraltar IRA incident - the NEED to prevent triggering explosive devices over-rules the 'need' to contain the situation, and the only way to do that is to ensure there are no terrs left to set off a bomb.

That is why highly trained military personnel should only be used in extreme circumstances.

To use them in containable situations is to run a very big risk of unnecessary death, but it's a hard call.


That was the previous theory, Grappler.  The new theory is that the military are in control of the situation, once the police identify it as a "Terrorist incident".   The military, while disciplined, is also prone to shooting first, asking questions if at all, later.   The military view of any situation is how do I solve it with firearms.   The police view is how do they solve it, perhaps if necessary, with firearms.   While I hope we would not see the military failing to exercise control over their troops, it is always a possibility, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown.

What I think is going to happen, what I hope is going to happen is that they will work out a better way than what I have read about in the MSM being proposed by the Government.   As I've said, the Police should be Strategic control.  They can hand Operational control over to the Military for short periods where they can use their Tactical advantages,  utilise their superior firepower and then take back the Operational control, once the situation has been resolved.   However, at the moment it appears that the Military will have Strategic and Operational and Tactical control.    Roll Eyes
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Answer the question, FD.   How many Muslims do you know personally?

I don't know Brian. I only know the religious views of a fraction of the people I know.
WWW  
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