Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9
Send Topic Print
Islam's just war theory (Read 20591 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #45 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 6:44pm
 
Gandalf, does Islam's just war doctrine include a concept of proportionality?

How do you reconcile the the "only in self defence" rule with Muhammad going on rape and pillage expeditions as soon as he was in a position to do so?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #46 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 7:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2017 at 6:44pm:
Gandalf, does Islam's just war doctrine include a concept of proportionality?


It certainly does. And it also encourages forgiveness instead of retribution:

Fight in the way of God those who fight against you, but do not transgress. God does not love the transgressor. - 2:190

And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves,
And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.
And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged - those have not upon them any cause [for blame].
The cause is only against the ones who wrong the people and tyrannize upon the earth without right. Those will have a painful punishment.
And whoever is patient and forgives - indeed, that is of the matters [requiring] determination. (Yusuf Ali translation of 42:39 "But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.")
42:39-43
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #47 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 7:09pm
 
Where do you get the proportionality concept from?

How do you reconcile the the "only in self defence" rule with Muhammad going on rape and pillage expeditions as soon as he was in a position to do so?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jasin
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 45566
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #48 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 7:09pm
 
FreeDiver.
Islam will do whatever it likes, however it likes.
For it is still 'Empire', even if its running on its last vapours of a once glorious and more honourable past.
It won't give up until 'the price is paid' by Europe for stealing Religion from the Middle-East.
The Jews renounced Jesus and his Christianity for good reason. He is 'not' their 'King'.

So you get rid of ISIS and another will just emerge with a new name until the price is paid.

So who will be 'sacrificed' by Europe - to pay the price?
My money is on France and already the UK (via Brexit) has stepped back from the imminent 'last Jihad' and recognising an EU as it is, until France lifts its game.

USA will be 'distracted' (thanks to N.Korea) by the Sino-Russo WAR.
All of Islam will be thrust against Europe with only France being forced to take 'responsibility'.
The Saudi's will be ransacked of their wealth to fund the onslaught (because Allah is more powerful than Oil).

Back to top
 

AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #49 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 7:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2017 at 7:09pm:
Where do you get the proportionality concept from?


You really can't see how "And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it" - equates to proportionality?

Never mind then, you can lead a horse to water...
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #50 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 8:37pm
 
Ah, the verse that instructs Muslims to commit evil acts is Islam's doctrine of proportionality? Or is that where you get forgiveness from?

Just like the verses that never even mention self defence (because it's an English word) are the Koran's statement that war may only be fought in self defence?

How do you reconcile the the "only in self defence" rule with Muhammad going on rape and pillage expeditions as soon as he was in a position to do so?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #51 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2017 at 8:37pm:
How do you reconcile the the "only in self defence" rule with Muhammad going on rape and pillage expeditions as soon as he was in a position to do so?


Oh darn. Good point FD, I totally forgot that Muhammad went on "rape and pillage expeditions". You sure got me there  Tongue
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #52 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 9:23pm
 
Were these all self defence Gandalf?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Can you explain how you make the leap from the Koran instructing Muslims to commit evil acts in retribution to a just war doctrine of proportionality?

Also would you like another attempt at explaining how the Koran limits war to self defence without ever using the term self defence? Or are you sticking with "because it's in Arabic"?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #53 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 9:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
Can you explain how you make the leap from the Koran instructing Muslims to commit evil acts in retribution to a just war doctrine of proportionality?


No - because thats not what it said.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #54 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 7:36am
 
This is what you posted Gandalf:

Quote:
You really can't see how "And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it" - equates to proportionality?


Is this not instructing Muslims to commit evil acts?

Do you really project a doctrine of proportionality onto this? Because you couldn't find a better example?

Were these all self defence Gandalf?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Also would you like another attempt at explaining how the Koran limits war to self defence without ever using the term self defence? Or are you sticking with "because it's in Arabic"?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #55 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 8:09am
 
Gandalf, what do you think these verses are saying?

21. Or is it that they have partners who litigate for them religious laws never authorized by God? Were it not for the conclusive decision, it would have been settled between them. The wicked will have a painful punishment.

24. Or do they say, “He forged a lie about God.” If God so willed, He could have sealed your heart. But God obliterates the false, and confirm the true by His Words. He knows what is in the hearts.


Would you mind pointing out where the context of the verse you quoted implies it is a reference to justification for war, rather than "an eye for an eye"?

Does Islam use retribution as a justification for war?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #56 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 1:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2017 at 7:36am:
This is what you posted Gandalf:

Quote:
You really can't see how "And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it" - equates to proportionality?


Thanks FD - now we can compare and contrast with what the verse actually says compared to your misleading version...

FD's version:
the Koran instructing Muslims to commit evil acts in retribution to a just war doctrine of proportionality?

or the actual verse:
And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it




Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #57 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 2:34pm
 
Does it instruct Muslims to commit evil acts or not?

Is this one use of the word "like" the extent of the Koran's proportionality doctrine?

Would you mind pointing out where the context of the verse you quoted implies it is a reference to justifying war, rather than "an eye for an eye" in a civil/criminal context?

Does Islam use retribution as a justification for war?

Were these all self defence Gandalf?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Also would you like another attempt at explaining how the Koran limits war to self defence without ever using the term self defence? Or are you sticking with "because it's in Arabic"?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #58 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 2:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2017 at 2:34pm:
Does it instruct Muslims to commit evil acts or not?


I wouldn't call it an instruction - as in "you must commit an evil act like it" - it is saying the appropriate recompense is to an evil act is an evil act like it. That is the very definition of proportionality FD. But it also says in the very same sentence that opting for forgiveness and reconciliation instead, will earn rewards from Allah - and most significant is the last phrase "Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers" - strongly implies this is the by far the better option. Strongly supported 3 verses later by "And whoever is patient and forgives - indeed, that is of the matters [requiring] determination." - or the Yusuf Ali translation: "But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs."

Thus interpreted - if you are wronged, then you are allowed recompense through the 'eye for an eye' principle. However it strongly hints that recompense is not necessary, and that forgiving and reconciling is a great and courageous thing to do. And almost certainly the better option.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47052
At my desk.
Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #59 - Jul 11th, 2017 at 3:01pm
 
So the Koran does not distinguish doing evil things and justice?

Is this one use of the word "like" the extent of the Koran's proportionality doctrine?

Would you mind pointing out where the context of the verse you quoted implies it is a reference to justifying war, rather than "an eye for an eye" in a civil/criminal context?

Does Islam use retribution as a justification for war?

Were these all self defence Gandalf?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Also would you like another attempt at explaining how the Koran limits war to self defence without ever using the term self defence? Or are you sticking with "because it's in Arabic"?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9
Send Topic Print