Gandalf has been telling these lies about the Quran's just war doctrine based on self defense and proportionality again.
Consider verses 193 and 194 from chapter 2 of the Quran - two translations of each are provided here:
Verse 193:http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/193/order-to-fight-for-a-just-cause
Asad Translation:
Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong.
Malik Translation:
Fight against them until there is no more disorder and Allah's supremacy is established. If they desist, let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.
Verse 194:http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months
Asad:
Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.
Malik:
The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.
Verse 193 says to convert people to Islam by the sword. Gandalf claims this one establishes a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Verse 194 says to only fight if you are under attack, and to respond with the same level of force. Gandalf claims that this one is NOT establishing a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Clearly it does. The problem for Gandalf is that is also clearly limits this doctrine to the holy months.
Here is Gandalf arguing that verse 194 doesn't count because it does not apply to warfare, only civil matters (despite immediately following the verse he uses for his just war doctrine):
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16
th, 2018 at 2:01pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 16
th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
That would make sense if proportional response was stipulated as a limit elsewhere. It is not. Again, Muhammad does talk about proportional response in warfare, plainly and clearly, but does not limit Islamic warfare to this standard.
Good news FD, I finally tracked down the thread in which you found this apparent "plain and clear" proportional response to warfare.
Its just a shame you seem to have missed my refutation of the claim that it must be in reference to warfare, rather than civil/legal matters:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30
th, 2017 at 11:58am:
The word that submission.org translates as "attack" is the arabic اعتدي - which is more commonly translated as "assault" or "violate". Quran.com translates it as 'transgressed' and 'violate', which certainly does fit in a a civil/legal context. Additionally, the phrase that gives permission for retribution describes the object in the singular, not the plural ("him" - as in 'you can retaliate the equivalent against 'him' - arabic عليه "upon him"). This would be a strange way to express how to retaliate against a pluarity - eg an attacking army.
And again:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17
th, 2018 at 12:13pm:
Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?
Again, feel free to re-read (or just read) my explanation of the verse, along with explanations of the actual arabic used.
Here, he appears to backpedal slightly:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17
th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare. Though it is clearly in specific reference to 'one on one' assaults - it makes no sense to insist there must be different rules for warfare.
He has not responded with any clarification since.
The three preceding verses are also about war (Malik's translation):
190: Fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors.
191: Kill them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you. Though killing is bad, creating mischief is worse than killing. Do not fight them within the precincts of the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there; but if they attack you put them to the sword; that is the punishment for such unbelievers.
192: If they cease hostility, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
From later in chapter 2:
216: Fighting has been made obligatory for you, much to your dislike. It is quite possible that something which you don't like is good for you and that something which you love is bad for you. Allah knows, and you do not.