Australian Politics Forum - Islam's just war theory

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #120 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 1:25pm freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 11:39am: I have asked you plenty of times in this thread Gandalf. Here is the most recent example: freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 11:39am: What do you think it means Moriaty? ah
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #121 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 1:28pm And this is apparently me not explaining to you what it says: Quote: it a command for muslims to kill the mushrikun wherever one finds them. See FD? I explain it to you even when you don't ask me.
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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #122 - Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:09am

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 11:39am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2017 at 10:59am:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 8:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 5:39pm:

[quote author=freediver link=1499988755/165#165 date=1502602247]Let see a demonstration of this. Gandalf, what does this passage from the Koran mean?

[quote author=freediver link=1469837313/0#0 date=1469837313]
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

it a command for muslims to kill the mushrikun wherever one finds them. Or is this a trick question?

It seemed to be a difficult question all the other times I asked you.

Would you like to give your interpretation of all the other details in the passage?

No FD, you have never asked me that question before. Fancy that eh?

I have asked you plenty of times in this thread Gandalf. Here is the most recent example:

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2017 at 12:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Quote:

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims.

So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?

When they break their treaty.

But thank you for confirming you literally invented the part about muslims being ordered to kill unbelievers - for being unbelievers.

Do you agree that the reference to breaking treaties is a caveat on the reference to "except if there is a treaty", which is itself a caveat on the general rule to slaughter the infidel? We have gone over this dozens of times but I do not think you have ever responded to this point.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2016 at 10:08am:

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Try again Gandalf. I got the crayons out, just for you.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #123 - Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:27am

If you meant that you wanted to ask a different question, just say so FD. No need to be childish about it.

Now, presumably you are now asking me to answer this:

Quote:

Do you agree that the reference to breaking treaties is a caveat on the reference to "except if there is a treaty", which is itself a caveat on the general rule to slaughter the infidel? We have gone over this dozens of times but I do not think you have ever responded to this point.

OK FD, you win - this Quran actually says kill slaughter mushriken infidels as the primary, overarching command - in all times and places, for no other reason than they are non-believers. And anyone who attempts to glean a more nuanced, slightly less hysterical interpretation, is obviously practicing taqqiya. And there is totally no constructive value whatsoever in muslims attempting to argue and promote this sort of milder interpretation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47345 At my desk.	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #124 - Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:34am I have asked you this "different" question plenty of times Gandalf. Still waiting on a straight answer. Try again.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #125 - Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:52am

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:34am:

Still waiting on a straight answer. Try again.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2017 at 11:27am:

OK FD, you win - this Quran actually says kill slaughter mushriken infidels as the primary, overarching command - in all times and places, for no other reason than they are non-believers. And anyone who attempts to glean a more nuanced, slightly less hysterical interpretation, is obviously practicing taqqiya. And there is totally no constructive value whatsoever in muslims attempting to argue and promote this sort of milder interpretation.

I'm pretty sure thats the correct answer FD - not sure why you are still whinging.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #126 - Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:46pm

Gandalf has been telling these lies about the Quran's just war doctrine based on self defense and proportionality again.

Consider verses 193 and 194 from chapter 2 of the Quran - two translations of each are provided here:

Verse 193:

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/193/order-to-fight-for-a-just-cause

Asad Translation:
Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong.

Malik Translation:
Fight against them until there is no more disorder and Allah's supremacy is established. If they desist, let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Verse 194:

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

Asad:
Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.

Malik:
The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Verse 193 says to convert people to Islam by the sword. Gandalf claims this one establishes a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Verse 194 says to only fight if you are under attack, and to respond with the same level of force. Gandalf claims that this one is NOT establishing a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Clearly it does. The problem for Gandalf is that is also clearly limits this doctrine to the holy months.

Here is Gandalf arguing that verse 194 doesn't count because it does not apply to warfare, only civil matters (despite immediately following the verse he uses for his just war doctrine):

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2018 at 2:01pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2018 at 12:34pm:

That would make sense if proportional response was stipulated as a limit elsewhere. It is not. Again, Muhammad does talk about proportional response in warfare, plainly and clearly, but does not limit Islamic warfare to this standard.

Good news FD, I finally tracked down the thread in which you found this apparent "plain and clear" proportional response to warfare.

Its just a shame you seem to have missed my refutation of the claim that it must be in reference to warfare, rather than civil/legal matters:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2017 at 11:58am:

The word that submission.org translates as "attack" is the arabic اعتدي - which is more commonly translated as "assault" or "violate". Quran.com translates it as 'transgressed' and 'violate', which certainly does fit in a a civil/legal context. Additionally, the phrase that gives permission for retribution describes the object in the singular, not the plural ("him" - as in 'you can retaliate the equivalent against 'him' - arabic عليه "upon him"). This would be a strange way to express how to retaliate against a pluarity - eg an attacking army.

And again:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

Again, feel free to re-read (or just read) my explanation of the verse, along with explanations of the actual arabic used.

Here, he appears to backpedal slightly:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:51pm:

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare. Though it is clearly in specific reference to 'one on one' assaults - it makes no sense to insist there must be different rules for warfare.

He has not responded with any clarification since.

The three preceding verses are also about war (Malik's translation):

190: Fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors.

191: Kill them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you. Though killing is bad, creating mischief is worse than killing. Do not fight them within the precincts of the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there; but if they attack you put them to the sword; that is the punishment for such unbelievers.

192: If they cease hostility, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

From later in chapter 2:

216: Fighting has been made obligatory for you, much to your dislike. It is quite possible that something which you don't like is good for you and that something which you love is bad for you. Allah knows, and you do not.

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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #127 - Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:50pm

217: They ask you about war in the Sacred Month. Tell them: "fighting in this month is a heinous offence; but to prevent from the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access and expel His worshippers from the Sacred Mosque is a more severe crime, since mischief is worse than killing in His sight. As for unbelievers: they will not cease fighting until they succeed in turning you back from your religion if they can; and if any of you turns back from his religion and dies as an unbeliever, his deeds will become void in this life and in the hereafter. He will be the inmate of hellfire, to live in there forever.

244: O believers, fight in the path of Allah without fear of death and bear in mind that Allah hears and knows everything.

245: Who will loan to Allah a beautiful loan which Allah will increase many fold? Allah alone can decrease and increase wealth, and to Him you all shall return.

246: Have you not reflected on what the leaders of the children of Israel demanded from one of their Prophets after the death of Musa (Moses)? "Appoint for us a king," they said, "and we will fight in the cause of Allah." The Prophet replied: "What if you refuse to fight when you are ordered to do so?" They replied, "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, while we along with our children were driven out of our homes?" But when, on their demand, they were ordered to fight, all refused except a few of them. Allah knows the evildoers.

And just in case you thought verse 194 did not actually intend to limit the just war doctrine it establishes to the holy months:

9:5 When the forbidden months (10,11,12 & 1 of the Islamic calendar) are over, then fight the mushrikïn wherever you find them, seize them, besiege them, and lie in ambush for them in every stratagem of war, but if they repent, establish Salah and pay Zakah, then let them go their way: surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Another verse, similar to 2:193, calling on Muslims to spread Islam by the sword:

8:39 O believers, fight them until there is no more mischief and the Deen of Allah (way of life prescribed by Allah) is established completely; but if they do stop from mischief, then surely Allah is observant of all their actions.

Another interesting translation of 8:39 and 2:193 - the main verse Gandalf uses to establish the Quran's just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=8&verse=39

Mohsin Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=193

Mohsin Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

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« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:11pm by freediver »

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92238 Gender:	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #128 - Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:01pm FD, do you support the use of lies in general, or only in your campaign against the Muselman? A simple yes or no will suffice.
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