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Islam's just war theory (Read 20592 times)
freediver
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Islam's just war theory
Jul 1st, 2017 at 11:36am
 
Islamic Just War Theory

Apparently Islam only permits war for self defence. This came out of a discussion with Gandalf on chapter 9 of the Koran, which is basically slaughtering the infidel from start to finish. According to Gandalf, my mistake was to only quote the entire chapter. I left out the rest of the Koran, from which Gandalf has managed to extract a few quotes supporting his alternative interpretation. Gandalf thinks that the "only for self defence" theory is entirely consistent with Muhammad's behaviour, because there was an occasion when Muhammad sought peace. Here is Gandalf using the Life Of Brian to explain this:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 10:21am:
freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:11am:
So Islam promotes a just war theory because Muhammad occasionally refrained from slaughtering the infidel?

Grin familiar with Life of Brian are you FD?


The Koran does not actually say that war should only be for self defence. These are the verses Gandalf has come up with:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21st, 2017 at 12:37pm:
Funny FD didn't find these ayat from Chapter 9 important enough to highlight:

Quote:
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).


Quote:
13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.


Good grief - is the Quran saying its "pious" to make peace with those who have not wronged you, or supported others against you??

Could it possibly be that the Quran is saying that fighting is only permitted against those who violate oaths they have made with you, and who attack you first??

related:

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. 8.61

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
  60.8-9


Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.


oh look - surely Allah doesn't support worshippers of other non-muslim faiths (christians and jews) in which "the name of Allah (God) is much mentioned"??



polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26th, 2017 at 1:24pm:
This is just one of the quotes FD inconceivably missed from post 71:

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.
22:39

Bolded  the key part - in case its not obvious enough.

Is this not clearly specifying who (and only who) fighting against is given permission to? Or is FD just going to shift the goalposts again and pretend this is merely creating a victim complex that somehow excuses unrestrained slaughter?

oh look, Allah even specifys that when fighting is permitted, it must end when the oppression is over:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 1:193

and, as mentioned, when the enemy inclines towards peace, you must also:

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. 8.61


Despite Gandalf's insistence, none of these verses state that war is only permitted in self defence. In fact they state the opposite. Gandalf's first example, verse 4 from chapter 9, is the only one to place any limitation on slaughtering the infidel - where Muslims have a peace treaty with them. Even here, there is plenty of room provided to take exception: "and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you". This is provided as a way for Muslims to get out of a peace treaty and continue slaughtering the infidel, yet Gandalf manages to interpret it as limiting war to self defence. Chapter 9 starts with a broad command to kill the infidel wherever Muslims find them, unless Muslims have a peace treaty with them that the Muslims consider to still be valid.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 11:37am
 
Verse 1.193 is an interesting choice, because it starts by commanding Muslims to fight the infidel until they accept Muslims as their rulers and Islam as their religion. Verse 22:39 says nothing at all about restricting war to self defence. It is merely one of the many broad reasons given to muslims to slaughter the infidel. Gandalf somehow interpreted it as the "only" reason permission is given to fight, but there is nothing in the verse to suggest this. Chapter 9 provides more justifications to slaughter the infidel, such as mockery of Islam. Verse 8.61 is the only example Gandalf gave that is not actually encouraging Muslims to fight, however both 8.61 and 1.193 put the onus entirely on the infidel to pursue peace.

Verse 60.8 is another interesting choice - Allah does not forbid Muslims from acting justly towards those who do not attack Muslims because of their religion. Note that it does not say Muslims are compelled to act justly. They are merely given permission to act justly. Why would this even be necessary, unless the general rule was to act with hostility? Again, it does not say war should only be fought in self defence.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 11:47am
 
Good to see you opening up discussion, FD.

Are you taking questions yet?
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 2:20pm
 
FD?
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #4 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 12:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2017 at 11:37am:
Verse 22:39 says nothing at all about restricting war to self defence. It is merely one of the many broad reasons given to muslims to slaughter the infidel. Gandalf somehow interpreted it as the "only" reason permission is given to fight, but there is nothing in the verse to suggest this. Chapter 9 provides more justifications to slaughter the infidel, such as mockery of Islam. Verse 8.61 is the only example Gandalf gave that is not actually encouraging Muslims to fight, however both 8.61 and 1.193 put the onus entirely on the infidel to pursue peace


As to the highlighted part - in the case of you fighting in self defense, wouldn't you agree this is the only possible way to achieve peace - by the oppressors ceasing the oppression?

FD do you acknowledge that the Quran states explicitly on several occassions to cease fighting if the enemy ceases oppressing? I'm not sure what more evidence you need to conclude that warfare in the Quran is a just war (self defense) doctrine. Yes there are embellishments such as mentioning those who mock - but there is no evidence to suggest that in itself is justification for waging war against and killing infidels. The clear and unambiguous commands to stop fighting when oppression stops, and to stop fighting when overtures of peace are made by the aggressors - in addition to the critically important commands for freedom in belief in 2:256 and 18:29 (no compulsion in religion + whoever so wills let him disbelieve) - paints an abundantly clear message that fighting is not against difference of personal beliefs, but against oppression against muslims. 
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #5 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 12:38pm
 
Quote:
As to the highlighted part - in the case of you fighting in self defense, wouldn't you agree this is the only possible way to achieve peace - by the oppressors ceasing the oppression?


Obviously. If Muslims are always the victim, even while slaughtering their way across the middle east and north africa, then it is entirely up to the infidel to cease oppressing them by submitting to Islam. The verse does explicitly state to fight them until "worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah".
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #6 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 1:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 12:38pm:
The verse does explicitly state to fight them until "worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah".


Of course - if you ignore the second half of the ayat beginning with "but"
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #7 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:18pm
 
Quote:
Of course - if you ignore the second half of the ayat beginning with "but"


Even if you do not ignore the second half, it still says to slaughter the infidel until they convert to Islam.

Gandalf, are you saying that a sentence saying to slaughter the infidel until they convert to Islam is the clearest statement of Islam's just war concept?

What does the Koran mean by oppression? Did Muhammad develop some concept of individual liberty? And what exactly do you think the verse suggests the infidel must cease to avoid being slaughtered?

Quote:
Yes there are embellishments such as mentioning those who mock - but there is no evidence to suggest that in itself is justification for waging war against and killing infidels.


Yes there is. The Koran says to wage war against the infidels. Sometimes there are vague limitations placed on it.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #8 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:18pm:
Even if you do not ignore the second half, it still says to slaughter the infidel until they convert to Islam.


The second condition supersedes the first. Thats what happens when you insert the word "but" followed by a qualifying condition. Your insistence that the first condition is to be pursued no matter what makes no sense. Why put the qualifier in at all? Its like telling your kid "Eat all your vegetables - but if it makes you feel sick, then don't" - and then insisting somehow there is no situation in which he can't eat his vegetables.

2:193:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

The only reasonable way to interpret this ayah is that you fight until Islam prevails over the land while-ever the enemy refuses to make peace and/or stop their oppression. Otherwise, you must stop as soon as the enemy stops fighting you.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:18pm:
Sometimes there are vague limitations placed on it.


oh look, we have the first signs of FD conceding a point  Grin


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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #9 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:32pm
 
Quote:
The second condition supersedes the first.


How?

Quote:
Thats what happens when you insert the word "but" followed by a qualifying condition.


What is that condition Gandalf? You claim the condition to be something completely different than what it actually says.

Gandalf, are you saying that a sentence saying to slaughter the infidel until they convert to Islam is the clearest statement of Islam's just war concept?

What does the Koran mean by oppression? Did Muhammad develop some concept of individual liberty? And what exactly do you think the verse suggests the infidel must cease to avoid being slaughtered?

Quote:
oh look, we have the first signs of FD conceding a point


Sometimes there are no conditions placed on it. Like the beginning of chapter 9, whose meaning you attempted to flip on its head.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #10 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:32pm:
What is that condition Gandalf? You claim the condition to be something completely different than what it actually says.


No, it says exactly what it says.

But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Is that still a little too cryptic for you?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:32pm:
What does the Koran mean by oppression?


Ah - you can't deny the Quran stipulates to fight against oppression (reasonable in anyone's book), so the next step is to claim that Quranic oppression doesn't really mean oppression.

Unfortunately, you are out of luck. The very verse you quote in the OP gives examples of oppression - such as kicking you out of your house, and preventing you from worshipping. Would you agree that these things are indeed oppression?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:32pm:
Sometimes there are no conditions placed on it


The conditions are clearly set in other verses I have already referenced. Surah 9 even alludes to them again.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #11 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:46pm
 
Quote:
No, it says exactly what it says.
But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
Is that still a little too cryptic for you?


The instruction to slaughter the infidel until they convert to Islam is crystal clear. The "but" bit is not so clear, hence your efforts to read an elaborate just war theory into what amounts to "stop it". Here, I will repeat the question for you, this time in bold so you don't miss it: And what exactly do you think the verse suggests the infidel must cease to avoid being slaughtered?

Quote:
Ah - you can't deny the Quran stipulates to fight against oppression (reasonable in anyone's book), so the next step is to claim that Quranic oppression doesn't really mean oppression.


I am asking you what it means Gandalf. If you don't know, just admit it.

Quote:
The conditions are clearly set in other verses I have already referenced.


You mean the bit about mocking Islam? Or the bit about washing your genitals with dust and water from stools and urine? Shall we open the Koran at random and blindly stick our finger on the page to find out what it "really" means? Perhaps you could chop the sentences in half to get rid of the bit about slaughtering the infidel until they convert to Islam and make it say what you want. Good luck finding a verse about self defense though.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #12 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:58pm
 
FD, neither of the verses that you have quoted explain WHY they are fighting; it only explains WHO they are fighting. Therefore the historical background must be taken into consideration.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #13 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:04pm
 
The context is that they are fighting because they are Muslims. It is what they do. The best of them, at least.
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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #14 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:04pm:
The context is that they are fighting because they are Muslims. It is what they do. The best of them, at least.


Where does it say the word 'because'?

If I say: "Fight the Nazis wherever you find them...." Does this indicate why I'm fighting Nazis?
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