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4 Corners - The Siege (Read 2578 times)
Gordon
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4 Corners - The Siege
May 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am
 
This should be interesting.

The NSW Police totally botched the whole thing. They should have just called SAS who would have breached within 2 hours and given Monis a 3rd eye with no hostages harmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/16/4669879.htm
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #1 - May 22nd, 2017 at 9:54am
 
in hindsight gordy..the blame lies with that magistrate that gave him bail...when do they take the blame  the cops do what they are directed to do..

there is no one size fits all in a situation like that....

this man should have been deported years ago.. blame everyone.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am
 
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am:
This should be interesting.

The NSW Police totally botched the whole thing. They should have just called SAS who would have breached within 2 hours and given Monis a 3rd eye with no hostages harmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/16/4669879.htm


This's been done to death - SOP - the civil authorities may only call in the military in the event of the situation developing beyond their ability to control (as in the Iranian Embassy break-in, where a number of terrorists were involved and hostages were split between rooms and the terrorists probably had bombs).  The police had their own well-armed and highly trained intrusion teams, many of whom are ex-military, standing by, as well as trained negotiators working constantly - there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting.  The longer negotiations go on, the better the chances of a peaceful resolution, and these had been going on for hours.

SOP is also that the moment a hostage is killed or injured (as in the Iranian Embassy, where one was shot on the steps in front of police), all bets are off.  Until then, Gordo, negotiation is the keyword.

And that's a double third eye.... two shots to the head to be sure....

Monday Morning Quarterbacks always know the best plays that should have been used...... but there are no guarantees that even SAS or Commando teams would not have lost civilians in the break-in phase.
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« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2017 at 10:06am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2017 at 9:59am
 
cods wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:54am:
in hindsight gordy..the blame lies with that magistrate that gave him bail...when do they take the blame  the cops do what they are directed to do..

there is no one size fits all in a situation like that....

this man should have been deported years ago.. blame everyone.


Immigration let this pr1ck in.... he should have received an Osama burial so no dimwit could visit this 'martyr's' grave and swear vengeance on the Infidel.

As cods said - look at some of the d1cks that get bail and then go out and commit other crimes... like that clown with the eighteen year old girl abduction thing - if you or I had been accused of, say, slapping a cop about - do you think we'd get bail?  Especially if we were a known criminal?

Maybe we need to stop filling the prisons with 25% or so 'breaches of orders' and instead of creating people - making them over - into 'criminals', start filling them with hard criminals.

Maybe if magistrates followed the rule of law and did NOT permit assumption of guilt on the basis of the 'word of a person of standing' - i.e. a police officer or two telling the same story that they've told a hundred times before - and started ONLY finding on solid, proven evidence - they'd have room in the prisons for the criminals in society instead of Joe Bloggs picked at random for 'the treatment', so as to inspire terror in the populace that anyone any time can be picked up and jailed without reason.

Maybe if we made the hard and fast rule that any charge that may lead to prison MUST be heard by a jury and not by a biased magistrate sitting alone who thinks he/she is part of the 'thin blue line' - we might have room in the prisons for real criminals.

Maybe if we got rid of a 'discount on sentence' for pleading guilty, we would have fewer people pleading guilty who should not be convicted at all, and there'd be more room in the prisons for real criminals.

Maybe if we had a proper appeal system in which the evidence would be properly explored, as it demonstrably is not in lower courts, by a judge, we could have room in the prisons for real criminals and not just those chosen to be today's victim by a bored cop.
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« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2017 at 10:11am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:01am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
Monday Morning Quarterbacks always know the best plays that should have been used...... but there are no guarantees that even SAS or Commando teams would not have lost civilians in the break-in phase




exactly we tend to forget the police who were at the front every step of the way  put their lives on the line as well and get bugger all credit... where were the Police Commissioners  of which we seem to have many....deputies and more deputies...where was the Police Minister???..

I didnt see any of  them at the front door holding guns... Angry Angry
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #5 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:03am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:59am:
cods wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:54am:
in hindsight gordy..the blame lies with that magistrate that gave him bail...when do they take the blame  the cops do what they are directed to do..

there is no one size fits all in a situation like that....

this man should have been deported years ago.. blame everyone.


Immigration let this pr1ck in.... he should have received an Osama burial so no dimwit could visit this 'martyr's' grave and swear vengeance on the Infidel.



we know that   but when he started with his antics...that should have beena warning...maybe his wife would still be alive..as well as those killed in the cafe...  Angry Angry Angry

now we are even allowing more villains to stay... Angry Angry Angry
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #6 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:03am
 
Monis was an ASIS/ASIO asset. They should have called his handler to impose on him to surrender peacefully if they wanted the siege to end peacefully.

Perhaps they wanted Monis dead so ASIS/ASIO role in the Monis situation would not be revealed.

How did Monis get bail for the attempted murder of his wife?

1. Why was Monis at large at the time of the siege?
2. Why did police wait for the death of a hostage before entering the cafe?
3. What were the deficiencIes of training and equipment on the night, and how did they affect the outcome?
4. What was the impact of communication failures on the night?
5. Should the army have taken over the siege when it became plain progress had stalled?
6. How effectively did senior police leadership respond?

http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/4675089/six-questions-lindt-siege-inquest-m...

The most serious of these is how did Monis get bail? It could only have happened by high level interference in the case either with the prosecutor or the judiciary.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #7 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:06am
 
maybe the court doesnt think being accessory to your wife being murdered then set on fire is a problem for the community.... Angry Angry Angry

I do hope that magistrate gets a mention on 4 corners.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #8 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:08am
 
Graps, I know a guy who was a NSW Police weapons trainer a year retired at the time. He reckons breaching with high velocity long arms and not UMP45s was criminal negligence.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #9 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:11am
 
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am:
This should be interesting.

The NSW Police totally botched the whole thing. They should have just called SAS who would have breached within 2 hours and given Monis a 3rd eye with no hostages harmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/16/4669879.htm



Thanks for this.

I'd prefer to have read the Coroner's Report prior, but at least it will be available before the 2nd part of the 4 Corners story goes to air.

I will post the link on May 24 for those interested. 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:13am
 
cods wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:01am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
Monday Morning Quarterbacks always know the best plays that should have been used...... but there are no guarantees that even SAS or Commando teams would not have lost civilians in the break-in phase




exactly we tend to forget the police who were at the front every step of the way  put their lives on the line as well and get bugger all credit... where were the Police Commissioners  of which we seem to have many....deputies and more deputies...where was the Police Minister???..

I didnt see any of  them at the front door holding guns... Angry Angry


I'm not overly impressed with the lady Deputy Commissioner who was in charge, but the job is primarily administrative anyway and not tactical.  You don't imagine SAS Colonels and such go around kicking doors in, do you?  They administer, and the lower echelon troops deserve all the credit.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2017 at 10:18am
 
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:08am:
Graps, I know a guy who was a NSW Police weapons trainer a year retired at the time. He reckons breaching with high velocity long arms and not UMP45s was criminal negligence.



Have to agree... HV is not what you want at close quarters... short autos and pistols... and total accuracy from training.

SAS do pistol and short weapons training for days on end to get it right, and the Squadron allocated to CQB does that exclusively for a full year plus two months changeover at each end for transition to the next Ready Squadron ... there is no substitute for weapons training for CQB. Even then mistakes occur. 

I saw long guns and shotguns go through the door.... you want to be damned close to the 'suspect' to not hit a civilian with a shotgun.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #12 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:33am
 
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:08am:
Graps, I know a guy who was a NSW Police weapons trainer a year retired at the time. He reckons breaching with high velocity long arms and not UMP45s was criminal negligence.


The world is full of people who claim they would have done better in any event.

A police weapons trainer is hardly an expert. If he was any good he would have been commissioner.

Gordon knows a lot of blowhards, dodgers, and bumfluff collectors. Gordon does not know any real people.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #13 - May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2017 at 12:56pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 




It's the stupid rule that police work under about preserving life even if it is a worthless terrorist.


But they also suspected he was strapping an expansion vest which would severely limit their shooting options.


With 20 / 20 hindsight a 50 cal sniper round would have been the best option, no discussion, no negotiation, just shoot the prick at the first opportunity.




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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #15 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:26pm
 
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/police-the-true-story-of-the-lindt-sie...

remember there is always two sides...

In the early hours of December 15, fourteen serving NSW Police officers called their loved ones and said their goodbyes.

They were preparing to storm the Lindt Cafe where a mentally ill criminal, Man Haron Monis, out on bail had been holed up with four of the 18 hostages he had taken 16 hours earlier. They had been advised there was a bomb that the hostage-taker would likely detonate. Entire city blocks had been cleared with this expectation.

Under established anti-terror protocols, it was time to bring the crisis to a head. What followed over the next few minutes would see one of the hostages shot by Man Monis, triggering an Emergency Action that led to another tragic fatality and the death of the gunman.

For those who stormed the cafe — and the hundreds of officers who supported them that day — there would be no peace once the guns went silent. Instead they have been subjected to a two-year ordeal by a coronial inquest driven by lawyers who were hellbent on turning the inquiry into a public witch-hunt.


Katrina Dawson died during the siege.

Tori Johnson was executed by Monis.
I’ve had over 30 years policing experience and have been a police negotiator for the last two decades. I’ve worked on sieges where kids have been kidnapped by their parents, stand-offs where a mentally ill person has locked themselves away with high-powered firearms. I’ve had to talk mentally unstable individuals down from the abyss.

In those decades I’ve learnt that successful siege negotiations take time, they take empathy, they take courage. I’ve learnt to read the moments where a hostage taker can be engaged and when they can be pushed over the edge. I know what good policing looks like and I know that when confronted with disturbed people in stressful situations how important it is to stick to the well practised procedures.

In NSW we have developed a world-regarded system of dealing with sieges where the negotiators work hand-in-hand with tactical police to attempt to secure a peaceful resolution. The policy of contain and negotiate is what NSW Police are required to adhere to and for the most part it works well ensuring the safety of all involved.

For those who stormed the cafe — and the hundreds of officers who supported them that day — there would be no peace once the guns went silent

At the centre of this approach are a series of guidelines that dictate when to intervene through a Deliberate Action (DA) order and when to sit tight and only intervene when the situation escalates to such an extent that an Emergency Action (EA) trigger is reached.

Every siege is a judgment around whether to escalate or not, everyone involved should have the benefit of a debrief where the levels of escalation are reviewed to allow us to learn and improve. It is inexact but it is a science — and it is a science that saves lives. I am proud to say that NSW Police do it better than most other jurisdictions in the world. The training, protocols and expertise of the NSW Police Negotiators has been exported, implemented and used by numerous western countries around the world.

I am also an Executive member of the Police Association of NSW where I represent the interests of my members every day. Having watched this Coronial Inquest unfold I just can’t sit back and let what’s been allowed to happen within the courtroom go unchallenged.

In putting this post together, I have spoken to many of my colleagues who were in the field that day. Some of them were called to give evidence by the Coroner, others didn’t seem to have anything the Coroner wanted to hear.

But, within the limits of what can be legally disclosed, I believe these officers deserve to have their story told before the history of the Lindt cafe siege is written as a story of a botched police operation. The reality is that nothing could be further from the truth.

The Police

The morning of December 15 was to be the second day on the street for nearly 20 probationary constables from Sydney Central. That was the day when they get allocated their lockers, receive induction briefings, meet their education officer.

Only days earlier they swore their oath of office,….that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady the Queen as a police officer without favour or affection, malice or ill-will until I am legally discharged, that I will cause Her Majesty’s peace to be kept and preserved, and that I will prevent to the best of my power all offences against that peace, and that while I continue to be a police officer I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties faithfully according to law. So help me God. “

As these new recruits were being briefed a highway patrol cyclist rode into Martin Place as news was breaking of a disturbance in the Lindt Café. The first officer on the scene, went to the window to get as much information as possible via non-verbal communications with the hostages.


Hostage Elly Chen runs into the arms of police. Picture: Adam Taylor
That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come. Such was his commitment to protect the lives of the hostages he had to be directed to by
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #16 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:30pm
 
cont.
That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come. Such was his commitment to protect the lives of the hostages he had to be directed to by senior police to withdraw from the area he was in.

Other police were risking their lives to gather intelligence: a group of plainclothes detectives were placing themselves directly in harm’s way to get a view from the cafe windows.

Even more police rushed towards Lindt to assist, also placing themselves in the line of fire, securing a perimeter to stop people entering or leaving the area. Some of these police were in these positions for extended periods of time as it was deemed too dangerous to remove them from the areas they were in.

Police on Elizabeth Street were turning around buses and in doing so placed themselves in the direct line of fire from the cafe to achieve this feat. The law Courts were also closed to free up officers to deploy on foot.

The real spectre hanging over operations that day was the credible threat that Monis had a bomb in a backpack and was willing to detonate it. Police believed there was a bomb up until Monis was stopped. When the assessment was made that this was a terrorist incident the operation became more complex.

A Command centre was established

Under the Counter Terrorism Protocols a clear chain of command was implemented and clear protocols are required to be followed by police.

An operations centre was also established to allocate resources and gather intelligence.

Because of this heightened terror risk police from across Sydney were redeployed to assist the Police from the Central Metropolitan Region to lock down the area and remove traffic and pedestrians and clear nearby buildings.

Due to the threat posed by the bomb the initial exclusion zone was seen as too small — and had to be expanded. This meant more evacuations, more road closures and more people and traffic to be removed to safety.

These were uniformed police trying to clear the busiest part of Sydney during the busiest part of the day and get people out of the locked down area.

Across Martin Place, the Channel Seven building went into lockdown, while the government offices including State Ministers whose offices’ are in the vicinity were quietly and quickly removed to safety.

That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come

As the threat escalated calls starting coming into police that there were other bombs across the city. There was a report, possibly from one of the hostages under duress, that there was a bomb in the Channel Seven building. Police entered, cleared the building of staff and used it during the entire operation despite this bomb threat.

There was a report of another bomb at Town Hall and another at The Opera House. There was a report of a man with firearms in the Martin Place Tunnel. Police responded to each of these calls as an immediate threat to public safety as well as the Lindt Café

Across the city the terror threat sparked broader ground operations in line with the citywide terror response plan. Police were placed on high alert and directed to perform overt patrols to reassure the public and protect critical infrastructure.

Police from State Crime Command, Bass Hill Region Enforcement Squad, the Public Order and Riot squad and other specialist commands were all called into the city.

Inside the cafe Monis forced hostages into ringing radio stations, posting updates on Facebook and calling relatives. Recognising that providing a terrorist with a public forum is one of the most dangerous elements of a siege, police negotiators were deployed to radio newsrooms to deal with incoming calls.
Police Commanders were also fending off unhelpful suggestions from third parties, including Islamic clerics and others seeking to intervene. Monis demanded to speak to the then Prime Minister Tony Abbott. After all, what better way for a terrorist to make a statement than set a bomb off while talking to the PM

As this was all being managed, two uniformed police officers establishing the perimeter were approached by the family of one of the hostages. Other family members gravitated to them and they assumed responsibility for caring for the loved ones of the hostages.

These police secured a room in the old Supreme Court building for the families and stayed with them for the next 14 harrowing hours assisted by a Police Chaplain. These two officers managed their welfare as the hostages were texting and calling them, forming deep bonds with the family members.

My point? In all these varied ways, police were doing what we are trained to do. Putting public safety first and ahead of their own wellbeing.

As the day unfolded specially trained Police worked to develop scenarios around the critical decision of when to intervene with force. Paramount in these considerations were two factors. The wellbeing of the 18 hostages and the belief that Man Monis had a bomb that could be triggered at any time.

Police Commanders worked in co-operation and consultation with other agencies. Under the terrorism protocols officers were liaising with ASIO, Defence, AFP, and Foreign Affairs officials. Defenc
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #17 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:34pm
 
cont.
My point? In all these varied ways, police were doing what we are trained to do. Putting public safety first and ahead of their own wellbeing.

As the day unfolded specially trained Police worked to develop scenarios around the critical decision of when to intervene with force. Paramount in these considerations were two factors. The wellbeing of the 18 hostages and the belief that Man Monis had a bomb that could be triggered at any time.

Police Commanders worked in co-operation and consultation with other agencies. Under the terrorism protocols officers were liaising with ASIO, Defence, AFP, and Foreign Affairs officials. Defence personnel recreated the cafe and planned a range of responses.

The consensus emerged that there was no credible Deliberate Action Plan that would not result in a loss of civilian life.

It is also worth noting that while these events were unfolding there were three other sieges going on at the same time across the State that were being professionally dealt with. It was more than business as usual in the rest of the State as police in all Commands were deployed to protect and reassure communities.

The Entry

With the real prospect that Man Monis would trigger a bomb 14 members of the Tactical Operations Unit prepared to enter the building.

In this scenario, the survival of the officers was unlikely, which is why they called their loved ones and said their goodbyes. Reflect on that. These people expected to die and still did their jobs. Who does that?

Ultimately the call to enter the building came when Monis made the decision to execute a hostage. Prior to this point he had not harmed anyone.

There was much debate about the timing of this decision and I don’t think it is appropriate for me to pass judgment.

But I do know that the Operation Commander was acting on the information before him with a focus on avoiding the loss of life....As they forced entry into the building one of the TOU team was hit by a bullet fired by Monis but he continued into the building regardless. Tactical Police shot and killed Monis. Tragically, one of those bullets fragmented and hit one of the hostages.

At this stage, tactical police and negotiators began retrieving hostages, still under the belief there was the bomb which could detonate via a dead man’s switch or timer. But these Police stayed in the danger zone, clearing the building.

Once the hostages were released, bomb technicians entered the building with an expectation that the bomb could go off.

When the building was finally cleared, a “Critical Incident” was declared and seventy officers were deemed involved. These Police were interviewed and subjected to drug and alcohol testing by the Critical Incident Investigation Team.iii

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #18 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:35pm
 
cont.
The basic proposition appeared settled: a Person of Interest — Monis, had dictated the tragic outcome. Police had followed national guidelines and proven tactics.

While two innocent people were killed, that tragic outcome was not as devastating as any of the predicted outcomes from scenarios developed during the day.

Police acted not just professionally, but heroically and applauded from the Premier down. This was the story of the Lindt Café Siege. Until the inquest commenced.

The Coronial Inquest

There was always going to be an inquest as there should be. In fact global terrorism events have proven the benefits of fast and thorough operational reviews. The theory is that terrorist tactics are moving so fast that incidents need to be reviewed quickly, lessons learned and new processes taken on board.

For example in December 2014, terrorists had not begun to use vehicles as a weapon, now it is their modus operandi as evidenced by tragic events overseas.

Instead of a fast turnaround, the NSW Coronial Inquiry took 18 months to commence. A purpose-built courtroom in the CBD was constructed, lawyers were employed, a stand-alone media room was also fitted out. This time delay robbed police of the opportunity to properly debrief and review their operation.

Overseas jurisdictions have recognised that terrorism matters require a thorough, expeditious judge-led commission of inquiry, typically with a six-week time frame.

As with any major Police operation issues such as communications systems, timing of the EA, and other aspects should have been reviewed in a professional, robust and confidential way.

Of course, police decisions should be scrutinised because we need to make the right decisions. If there are areas where performance can be improved the focus is to identify them quickly and rectify them.i








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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #19 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm
 
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #20 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.


Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #21 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:16pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.



Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.


Now, now, behave.

Your contribution earlier in this thread was quite insightful, succinct and well written.

Dont spoil it by reverting to your other self.

Besides, dont you see the truth in my post.
No muzzos, no problems.
All it would take is a few nukes to clean the place up.

One on mecca during ramadandandandan.

And a few carefully located ones elsewhere
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #22 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 



That is an extremely presumptuous assumption.... without significant experience with ISIS flag-waving mental cases, how are they to assume a different outcome from the tried and tested 'wait 'em out and keep talking'......??

The police couldn't assume anything - they could only follow procedure and hope he got tired and sick of the stress and gave up.
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« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2017 at 11:27pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #23 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:17pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:56pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 




It's the stupid rule that police work under about preserving life even if it is a worthless terrorist.


But they also suspected he was strapping an expansion vest which would severely limit their shooting options.


With 20 / 20 hindsight a 50 cal sniper round would have been the best option, no discussion, no negotiation, just shoot the prick at the first opportunity.






In hindsight, yes.  In a war situation, no problem - trouble is the authorities were trying to avoid a war.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #24 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:21pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 11:16pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 



That is an extremely presumptuous assumption.... without significant experience with ISIS flag-waving mental cases, how are they to assume a different outcome from the tried and testes 'wait 'em out and keep talking'......??

The police couldn't assume anything - they could only follow procedure and hope he got tired and sick of the stress and gave up.

thats it, spot on. The coppers followed their training and procedure.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #25 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:28pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:16pm:
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.



Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.


Now, now, behave.

Your contribution earlier in this thread was quite insightful, succinct and well written.




You serious?  I passed over it as abysmally stupid... but I'll re-visit for the sake of common decency.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #26 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:39pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:03am:
Monis was an ASIS/ASIO asset. They should have called his handler to impose on him to surrender peacefully if they wanted the siege to end peacefully.

Perhaps they wanted Monis dead so ASIS/ASIO role in the Monis situation would not be revealed.

How did Monis get bail for the attempted murder of his wife?

1. Why was Monis at large at the time of the siege?
2. Why did police wait for the death of a hostage before entering the cafe?
3. What were the deficiencIes of training and equipment on the night, and how did they affect the outcome?
4. What was the impact of communication failures on the night?
5. Should the army have taken over the siege when it became plain progress had stalled?
6. How effectively did senior police leadership respond?

http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/4675089/six-questions-lindt-siege-inquest-m...

The most serious of these is how did Monis get bail? It could only have happened by high level interference in the case either with the prosecutor or the judiciary.


Ah - 'ere we go then, lads:-

Monis was a security services asset.....

Now why did I not bother to  read the rest?

1. Why was Monis at large at the time of the siege?

He got bail - nobody with a mind knows why.

2. Why did police wait for the death of a hostage before entering the cafe?

That is standard operating procecure while negotiating a hopefully peaceful outcome.

3. What were the deficiencIes of training and equipment on the night, and how did they affect the outcome?

No police agency has the time and resources to spend to train officers to the standard of those who specialise in breaking sieges - those latter spend months and years training for nothing else.  There is some discussion of the firearms used - but you already shot that messenger by saying that a firearms instructor wold be commissioner if he was any good.  News flash - very few cops get to be commissioner.

4. What was the impact of communication failures on the night?

And those were?  The situation was contained, the cafe under close observation, negotiators were working, a break-in team was standing by and moved within seconds of the first killing.

5. Should the army have taken over the siege when it became plain progress had stalled?

Progress in negotiation had not stalled - that is the essence of negotiation - that you keep the suspect talking and wait for him/her to get tired and bored and want to go home.  The army cannot intervene unless on direct request from civilian authorities, who must deem that the situation was indeed out of their ability to control and had only one course of action open - which was to storm the place.  That was explained to you on page one.

6. How effectively did senior police leadership respond?

The police on the job did all that could be done.  Senior police can only stand back and await the outcomes from their trained professional officers doing their job and supervise from a distance, since to attempt micro-control is to hazard the operation by too much interference.  What did you expect them to do?  Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?  They followed procedure.  How would the reporters have gone as the negotiators?

Now I know why I didn't bother before....
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #27 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am
 
Quote:
Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?


That was the main problem.
What if Monis did have a bomb? -
then everyone including all the cops would have died too.

It's easy to say what's right with hindsight.

Maybe it's lucky that only 2 innocent people died?

Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #28 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #29 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:51am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 11:39pm:
... Now I know why I didn't bother before....


You were sober before.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #30 - May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am
 
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #31 - May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #32 - May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am
 
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.


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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #33 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:06am
 
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.





and you are saying the hostages had this information????


really?

like I said no one size fits all...that guy could have turned his gun and shot them all....

this was nothing like those TV shows they people can read other peoples minds...its was all NEW for al;l of them
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #34 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am
 
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:06am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.





and you are saying the hostages had this information????


really?

like I said no one size fits all...that guy could have turned his gun and shot them all....

this was nothing like those TV shows they people can read other peoples minds...its was all NEW for al;l of them


Oh you were talking about the hostages taking action... My bad, I'm only critical of the cops.

Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #35 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:10am
 
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:06am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.





and you are saying the hostages had this information????


really?

like I said no one size fits all...that guy could have turned his gun and shot them all....

this was nothing like those TV shows they people can read other peoples minds...its was all NEW for al;l of them


Oh you were talking about the hostages taking action... My bad, I'm only critical of the cops.

Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.



Someone would only have had to smash a full bottle of wine over
his head with great force then have pre-organised others
to join in until Monis was a piece of mincemeat.
It's not that difficult.

I think someone did try to over power him physically -
as in wrestling -
but Monis was too strong for that.
I'll watch part 2.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #36 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:14am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 9:10am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:06am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.





and you are saying the hostages had this information????


really?

like I said no one size fits all...that guy could have turned his gun and shot them all....

this was nothing like those TV shows they people can read other peoples minds...its was all NEW for al;l of them


Oh you were talking about the hostages taking action... My bad, I'm only critical of the cops.

Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.



Someone would only have had to smash a full bottle of wine over
his head with great force then have pre-organised others
to join in until Monis was a piece of mincemeat.
It's not that difficult.

I think someone did try to over power him physically -
as in wrestling -
but Monis was too strong for that.
I'll watch part 2.



god bob by stop watching movies...life is nothing like that...smash a bottle over his head..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

tell us bobby when were you ever in a position you had no control over and it was a matter of life and death???

you make it all sound so easy....you do know not everyone is born with your bravery dont you?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #37 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:59pm
 
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 9:14am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 9:10am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:06am:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:59am:
cods wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 7:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:45am:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.



I dunno,
maybe we'll get the answer in part 2?



in hindsight people think like that  we all do....

sitting in our arm chairs we can all see how simple it would be.......yeah right....he told them he had a bomb   he had planted bombs all over the city. he was armed they werent....he was mad as a cut snake they were just going to work....

yeah why didnt someone act.... Sad


You're contradicting that police were acting on the advice of their psychologist who detriment he was not a terrorist so his claim of bombs around the city were unbelievable.

What is under question is not the heat of he moment decision of not going in earlier, but the process that came up with the notion that they back off UNTIL someone was killed.





and you are saying the hostages had this information????


really?

like I said no one size fits all...that guy could have turned his gun and shot them all....

this was nothing like those TV shows they people can read other peoples minds...its was all NEW for al;l of them


Oh you were talking about the hostages taking action... My bad, I'm only critical of the cops.

Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.



Someone would only have had to smash a full bottle of wine over
his head with great force then have pre-organised others
to join in until Monis was a piece of mincemeat.
It's not that difficult.

I think someone did try to over power him physically -
as in wrestling -
but Monis was too strong for that.
I'll watch part 2.



god bob by stop watching movies...life is nothing like that...smash a bottle over his head..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

tell us bobby when were you ever in a position you had no control over and it was a matter of life and death???

you make it all sound so easy....you do know not everyone is born with your bravery dont you?



Monis was lucky that someone like me wasn't there.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #38 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:35pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
Quote:
Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?


That was the main problem.
What if Monis did have a bomb? -
then everyone including all the cops would have died too.

It's easy to say what's right with hindsight.

Maybe it's lucky that only 2 innocent people died?

Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?


A simple truth is that society these days breeds men too afraid to be men.
They have pacifism thrust upon them in the guise of civilization.
Where once a man would stand and fight, now they cow and capitulate.

The courts punish any hwo dare to defend themselves.
The law itself must answer to the new wave apologists and are denigrated should they hurt the criminal.

Those of us who practice martial arts are watched in case we dare to use it.

But we, who believe in justice (not law) who know how and are willing to defend ourselves stand tall.
We laugh in the face of cowards, politicians and judges who have never been in a fight in their entire life and as such feel unfulfilled and cowardly.
They become impotent in life and wish to force their impotence on others.

No one fought monas, because they were conditioned not to.
No one fought monas because they have been conditioned to thonk violence is wrong.
No one fought monas because they were afraid having never been in a confronational situation.
No one fough monas because they have been conditioned to be subserviant, just as the grubberment want.

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A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #39 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm
 
Id have used a chair and kept hitting him until the inside bits of his head were on the outside.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #40 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:47pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:35pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
Quote:
Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?


That was the main problem.
What if Monis did have a bomb? -
then everyone including all the cops would have died too.

It's easy to say what's right with hindsight.

Maybe it's lucky that only 2 innocent people died?

Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?


A simple truth is that society these days breeds men too afraid to be men.
They have pacifism thrust upon them in the guise of civilization.
Where once a man would stand and fight, now they cow and capitulate.

The courts punish any who dare to defend themselves.
The law itself must answer to the new wave apologists and are denigrated should they hurt the criminal.

Those of us who practice martial arts are watched in case we dare to use it.

But we, who believe in justice (not law) who know how and are willing to defend ourselves stand tall.
We laugh in the face of cowards, politicians and judges who have never been in a fight in their entire life and as such feel unfulfilled and cowardly.
They become impotent in life and wish to force their impotence on others.

No one fought monas, because they were conditioned not to.
No one fought monas because they have been conditioned to think violence is wrong.
No one fought monas because they were afraid having never been in a confrontational situation.
No one fought monas because they have been conditioned to be subservient, just as the grubberment want.




We have been emasculated.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #41 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:48pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Id have used a chair and kept hitting him until the inside bits of his head were on the outside.


Someone tried to wrestle Monis  ( I think? )

You don't wrestle with someone who's much bigger than you -
you strike them hard & violently in a split second - by surprise.

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #42 - May 23rd, 2017 at 8:50pm
 
BTW guys I've mentioned it before but I was in Martin Plc from 11am until about 3pm.

I feel some connection with it.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #43 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:18pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Id have used a chair and kept hitting him until the inside bits of his head were on the outside.


Someone tried to wrestle Monis  ( I think? )

You don't wrestle with someone who's much bigger than you -
you strike them hard & violently in a split second - by surprise.



Or you pull out the small, but razor sharp knife out of your pocket and shove it into his spleen.
Then while he is trying to scream in agony, you slit his throat.

Another muzzos scumbad on his way to hell.
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I HAVE A DREAM
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A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
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SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #44 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:22pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 9:18pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:48pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:
Id have used a chair and kept hitting him until the inside bits of his head were on the outside.


Someone tried to wrestle Monis  ( I think? )

You don't wrestle with someone who's much bigger than you -
you strike them hard & violently in a split second - by surprise.



Or you pull out the small, but razor sharp knife out of your pocket and shove it into his spleen.
Then while he is trying to scream in agony, you slit his throat.

Another muzzos scumbag on his way to hell.



On the 4 corners show there seemed to be a lot of
effeminate men that they interviewed -
who had been held hostage.

Something was not right about it.
Monis was only one man against many.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #45 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:29pm
 
If only Jocko was there
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #46 - May 23rd, 2017 at 9:41pm
 
Or guys like these:

...
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #47 - May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #48 - May 23rd, 2017 at 11:05pm
 
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.



There was certainly no man trained to Australian SAS standards inside that building.
Those guys can kill with their bare hands in an instant.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #49 - May 23rd, 2017 at 11:10pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:05pm:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.



There was certainly no man trained to Australian SAS standards inside that building.
Those guys can kill with their bare hands in an instant.



Don't believe everything you read in the press...... it's possible... not easy to do.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #50 - May 23rd, 2017 at 11:12pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:10pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:05pm:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.



There was certainly no man trained to Australian SAS standards inside that building.
Those guys can kill with their bare hands in an instant.



Don't believe everything you read in the press...... it's possible... not easy to do.



Don't ever risk it against those guys!
They are strong like bulls.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #51 - May 23rd, 2017 at 11:21pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:05pm:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.



There was certainly no man trained to Australian SAS standards inside that building.
Those guys can kill with their bare hands in an instant.
The SAS guys have a broad range of skills, unarmed combat is amongst them but not predominate. But they certainly are exposed to stressful situations the average person is not. Killing would not be the objective here as such but immediate disabling of the perp. The last person you would want is some idiot like Valkie who thinks hes a tough guy.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #52 - May 24th, 2017 at 12:57am
 
Sorry - but in the situation where a hostage had been killed.... I said it before - all bets are off.  You show your rag-head and it gets blown off, and no chances are taken that there are any bombs or dead man switches etc.

Nobody gets to push a button or  even handle a mobile phone.

You don't know much, do you?  NO chance is taken, and if that means dire outcomes for the perps - tough luck and no sleep lost.

What the Hell is any unarmed combat skill going to do in a stand-up gun fight?

In THIS situation, the police officers had to act as best they could, and they did get the perp.  I'll guarantee you that none of them was prepared to go hand-to-hand with Mad Man Monis unless absolutely necessary - at the moment of intrusion, he was a dead man, and not by hands etc... by disciplined gun fire.

No way that d1ck was walking out of that place.... feet first on a stretcher was his only option.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #53 - May 24th, 2017 at 1:08am
 
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am:
This should be interesting.

The NSW Police totally botched the whole thing. They should have just called SAS who would have breached within 2 hours and given Monis a 3rd eye with no hostages harmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/16/4669879.htm


Police have specialised units in Sydney who are trained to deal with this situation. The problem being that it seems the supervisors were looking at a peaceful resolution due to the cucked nature of not wanting to look xenophobic/racist/islamophobic in the international media. Had it been a white guy doing a hostage situation, the police would have gunned him down in little time.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #54 - May 24th, 2017 at 1:12am
 
cods wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:54am:
in hindsight gordy..the blame lies with that magistrate that gave him bail...when do they take the blame  the cops do what they are directed to do..

there is no one size fits all in a situation like that....

this man should have been deported years ago.. blame everyone.


We can't blame the magistrate for the death of people. We can criticise the judge for allowing bail in a case of Monis being alleged an accessory to murder. However, I mean, even a situation of a judge denying bail, perhaps Monis would have been out and doing this hostage scene a few years later. Monis should have been on his medication a long time ago. That would have reduced considerably the likelihood of his insane actions.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #55 - May 24th, 2017 at 1:56am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:08am:
Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am:
This should be interesting.

The NSW Police totally botched the whole thing. They should have just called SAS who would have breached within 2 hours and given Monis a 3rd eye with no hostages harmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/16/4669879.htm


Police have specialised units in Sydney who are trained to deal with this situation. The problem being that it seems the supervisors were looking at a peaceful resolution due to the cucked nature of not wanting to look xenophobic/racist/islamophobic in the international media. Had it been a white guy doing a hostage situation, the police would have gunned him down in little time.


Looking at a peaceful resolution is not a problem.. it is SOP.

NOBODY 'waited' until someone was killed - they managed the situation as per the rules and tried to bring everyone out alive.

Mad Man Monis was the problem... and he got his just fate.... sadly too late....

I've already explained that specialised police units are part-time and that no police force can employ a full-time unit dedicated to siege breaking.... professional siege breakers are trained massively for a lengthy period of time as I've laid out before... and are only available for extreme situations.

UNLESS the situation is clearly beyond the control of the civil authorities, military forces can NOT be employed, and negotiation is the proven way towards resolution.

The only outcome from this coronial inquiry MAY be that more focus needs to be employed on  training first response siege breaking officers - of any stamp, and that selection for that duty may be different in some ways.

The rest is window dressing and playing to an emotionally charged public audience...
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #56 - May 24th, 2017 at 6:41am
 
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:21pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 11:05pm:
rhino wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 10:50pm:
Gordon wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 8:16am:
[
Monis got lucky that amongst the hostages there were no trained people to take him out. I don't blame them.
Thats it. But I would add experienced trained people. Most trained martial artists find their fine motor skills go out the window in a situation requiring life and death split second decisions.



There was certainly no man trained to Australian SAS standards inside that building.
Those guys can kill with their bare hands in an instant.
The SAS guys have a broad range of skills, unarmed combat is amongst them but not predominate. But they certainly are exposed to stressful situations the average person is not. Killing would not be the objective here as such but immediate disabling of the perp.

The last person you would want is some idiot like Valkie who thinks hes a tough guy.



We need more tough people like Valkie.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #57 - May 24th, 2017 at 12:47pm
 
Lindt cafe siege inquest: police waited too long, coroner finds

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #58 - May 24th, 2017 at 12:50pm
 
This is exactly what I've been saying. 


Reconsideration of the "entrenched" philosophy of "contain and negotiate" with a view to create "more proactive" strategies.

a clarification of the legal powers of snipers to shoot.

the threshold for calling out the Australian Defence Force in domestic terrorism situations should be reviewed.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #59 - May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm
 
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #60 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #61 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm
 
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


Funnily enough, my opinions align with the coroner and that is the police should have gone in after he discharged his weapon when the 2nd? lot were escaping.



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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #62 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm
 
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.


I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


No! Round up the Ozpolitic conservative siege experts and give them control.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #63 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:14pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.


I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


No! Round up the Ozpolitic conservative siege experts and give them control.



Where were you that day you stupid prick. Were you there? I was.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #64 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:14pm:
Unforgiven wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.


I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


No! Round up the Ozpolitic conservative siege experts and give them control.



Where were you that day you stupid prick. Were you there? I was.


Which particular act of heroism was Gordon engaged in?

Or was Gordon on Rent-a-Crowd's payroll?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #65 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


Funnily enough, my opinions align with the coroner and that is the police should have gone in after he discharged his weapon when the 2nd? lot were escaping.






yes in hindsight......were you johnny on the spot making the decisions at that moment in time???>.


ha,....therein lies my point.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #66 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:21pm
 
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


Funnily enough, my opinions align with the coroner and that is the police should have gone in after he discharged his weapon when the 2nd? lot were escaping.






yes in hindsight......were you johnny on the spot making the decisions at that moment in time???>.


ha,....therein lies my point.


Cods, the coroner was highly critical of the Police policy to contain and rely so heavily on the psychologist. They're not on he spot decisions, they're policy and command errors. 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #67 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:22pm
 
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


I agree with you on that cods.  Monday morning quarterbacks always get it right.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #68 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm
 
Aussie wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:22pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


I agree with you on that cods.  Monday morning quarterbacks always get it right.


You're truly truly stupid. The coroner is criticising systemic policies, not the split second decisions.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #69 - May 24th, 2017 at 2:39pm
 
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Aussie wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:22pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry


I agree with you on that cods.  Monday morning quarterbacks always get it right.


You're truly truly stupid. The coroner is criticising systemic policies, not the split second decisions.



mate he is leaving a whole lot of people thinking it was my fault.... the poor lady who lost her life did so thanks to ricochet   no one  in this whole wide world  can be tried for something like that.....and thats basically what is coming through  some one is too blame...

I find it appalling....is this a new thing to use a psychiatrist at a siege????>. somehow I dont think so..

like I said my dear let all those who think they would have done a better job.. 

be at the next one and ...do it their way. Angry

I can only believe the psychiatrist is now in counselling.. he looks like he is wearing the full brunt of it..

of course we are all experts on human behavior after the fact are we not?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #70 - May 24th, 2017 at 10:01pm
 
Bullet fragments - one of the perils of using high velocity, thin jacketed ammunition...

...

Gordo I think it was said 9mm was more appropriate...
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #71 - May 24th, 2017 at 10:40pm
 
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry
Im probably the only one here who has been involved in a similar situation and I agree with Gordy. I do not understand why people put so much faith in psychologists who I have found tend to over estimate their own expertise, lets not forget its a piece of paper given to them for studying at a uni for 4 years that gives them the title, not any real life experience in anything.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #72 - May 24th, 2017 at 11:00pm
 
When I heard the word 'psychiatrist' I immediately said - "He's ONLY a psychiatrist - what would he know?"

I've met enough trick cyclists and sigh Kiama bits through DVA.... not one worth their salt... all taking money under false pretences.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #73 - May 24th, 2017 at 11:06pm
 
rhino wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 10:40pm:
cods wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
Gordon wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
Psychology, mostly pseudo-science.

The psychologist brought in to consult police was strongly criticised - he was permitted to give advice about police tactics, made erroneous and unrealistic assessments about what was happening and went beyond his area of expertise to give advice about Islamic terrorism.




I have an idea gordy  if we ever find ourselves in a position like this again we get

the psychiatrist  the Coroner and maybe one or two experts from ozpol..

to be in attendance and run the show..

funny how they have all the answers after the facts..

wonder how they will go BEFORE the facts. Angry Angry
Im probably the only one here who has been involved in a similar situation and I agree with Gordy. I do not understand why people put so much faith in psychologists who I have found tend to over estimate their own expertise, lets not forget its a piece of paper given to them for studying at a uni for 4 years that gives them the title, not any real life experience in anything.



Now you're talking my language... never met a trick cyclist (psychologist)who didn't live in a severely cordoned off world of their own belief systems.... and lest we forget - the Supreme Court of Australia has ruled that the opinion of an 'expert' must be supported by fact and cannot stand alone....

Why anyone places faith in these voodoo doctors is beyond me...

In my auto-bio - one such reckoned I was a 'sociopathic personality disorder' sufferer - never met me, spoke to me twice on the phone briefly, and that opinion flew in the face of much more highly regarded psychiatrists who had me under direct consideration and view in a VA course for eight weeks + ... who said universally that I suffer no psychiatric disorders, but suffer from PTSD which they couldn't crack.

But I guess I was just deluded about the higher value opinions, they must have been wrong...

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #74 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:03am
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:03am:
The most serious of these is how did Monis get bail? It could only have happened by high level interference in the case either with the prosecutor or the judiciary.



That's the most crucial point about this whole sorry-ass affair.

We want names.

We want sackings and even jail-time for criminal negligence that cost two lives.

We want justice for the sobbing parents and others. Closure. They'll be no closure until the bastards who tipped Monis back onto the streets are Named-and-Shamed before being dealt with before a jury in a Criminal Court.

Enough with the cronyism that's protecting some very guilty people indeed.

'Coroner's Report' ~ my arse!

An admitted white-wash from start to finish ...

"But he added that gunman Man Haron Monis "deserves to be the sole focus of our condemnation".

The sole focus.

Blatant and pathetic. It almost amounts to corruption.

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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #75 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:11am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 11:00pm:
When I heard the word 'psychiatrist' I immediately said - "He's ONLY a psychiatrist - what would he know?"

I've met enough trick cyclists and sigh Kiama bits through DVA.... not one worth their salt... all taking money under false pretences.


Psychiatrists are bought and sold by the judiciary. You can order them like something off a restaurant menu, depending on what you require of them.

Prostitutes far more immoral than any 'Mandy' or 'Shandy' working their arse off down at the local 'men's club'.
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