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4 Corners - The Siege (Read 2577 times)
cods
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #15 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:26pm
 
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/police-the-true-story-of-the-lindt-sie...

remember there is always two sides...

In the early hours of December 15, fourteen serving NSW Police officers called their loved ones and said their goodbyes.

They were preparing to storm the Lindt Cafe where a mentally ill criminal, Man Haron Monis, out on bail had been holed up with four of the 18 hostages he had taken 16 hours earlier. They had been advised there was a bomb that the hostage-taker would likely detonate. Entire city blocks had been cleared with this expectation.

Under established anti-terror protocols, it was time to bring the crisis to a head. What followed over the next few minutes would see one of the hostages shot by Man Monis, triggering an Emergency Action that led to another tragic fatality and the death of the gunman.

For those who stormed the cafe — and the hundreds of officers who supported them that day — there would be no peace once the guns went silent. Instead they have been subjected to a two-year ordeal by a coronial inquest driven by lawyers who were hellbent on turning the inquiry into a public witch-hunt.


Katrina Dawson died during the siege.

Tori Johnson was executed by Monis.
I’ve had over 30 years policing experience and have been a police negotiator for the last two decades. I’ve worked on sieges where kids have been kidnapped by their parents, stand-offs where a mentally ill person has locked themselves away with high-powered firearms. I’ve had to talk mentally unstable individuals down from the abyss.

In those decades I’ve learnt that successful siege negotiations take time, they take empathy, they take courage. I’ve learnt to read the moments where a hostage taker can be engaged and when they can be pushed over the edge. I know what good policing looks like and I know that when confronted with disturbed people in stressful situations how important it is to stick to the well practised procedures.

In NSW we have developed a world-regarded system of dealing with sieges where the negotiators work hand-in-hand with tactical police to attempt to secure a peaceful resolution. The policy of contain and negotiate is what NSW Police are required to adhere to and for the most part it works well ensuring the safety of all involved.

For those who stormed the cafe — and the hundreds of officers who supported them that day — there would be no peace once the guns went silent

At the centre of this approach are a series of guidelines that dictate when to intervene through a Deliberate Action (DA) order and when to sit tight and only intervene when the situation escalates to such an extent that an Emergency Action (EA) trigger is reached.

Every siege is a judgment around whether to escalate or not, everyone involved should have the benefit of a debrief where the levels of escalation are reviewed to allow us to learn and improve. It is inexact but it is a science — and it is a science that saves lives. I am proud to say that NSW Police do it better than most other jurisdictions in the world. The training, protocols and expertise of the NSW Police Negotiators has been exported, implemented and used by numerous western countries around the world.

I am also an Executive member of the Police Association of NSW where I represent the interests of my members every day. Having watched this Coronial Inquest unfold I just can’t sit back and let what’s been allowed to happen within the courtroom go unchallenged.

In putting this post together, I have spoken to many of my colleagues who were in the field that day. Some of them were called to give evidence by the Coroner, others didn’t seem to have anything the Coroner wanted to hear.

But, within the limits of what can be legally disclosed, I believe these officers deserve to have their story told before the history of the Lindt cafe siege is written as a story of a botched police operation. The reality is that nothing could be further from the truth.

The Police

The morning of December 15 was to be the second day on the street for nearly 20 probationary constables from Sydney Central. That was the day when they get allocated their lockers, receive induction briefings, meet their education officer.

Only days earlier they swore their oath of office,….that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady the Queen as a police officer without favour or affection, malice or ill-will until I am legally discharged, that I will cause Her Majesty’s peace to be kept and preserved, and that I will prevent to the best of my power all offences against that peace, and that while I continue to be a police officer I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties faithfully according to law. So help me God. “

As these new recruits were being briefed a highway patrol cyclist rode into Martin Place as news was breaking of a disturbance in the Lindt Café. The first officer on the scene, went to the window to get as much information as possible via non-verbal communications with the hostages.


Hostage Elly Chen runs into the arms of police. Picture: Adam Taylor
That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come. Such was his commitment to protect the lives of the hostages he had to be directed to by
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #16 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:30pm
 
cont.
That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come. Such was his commitment to protect the lives of the hostages he had to be directed to by senior police to withdraw from the area he was in.

Other police were risking their lives to gather intelligence: a group of plainclothes detectives were placing themselves directly in harm’s way to get a view from the cafe windows.

Even more police rushed towards Lindt to assist, also placing themselves in the line of fire, securing a perimeter to stop people entering or leaving the area. Some of these police were in these positions for extended periods of time as it was deemed too dangerous to remove them from the areas they were in.

Police on Elizabeth Street were turning around buses and in doing so placed themselves in the direct line of fire from the cafe to achieve this feat. The law Courts were also closed to free up officers to deploy on foot.

The real spectre hanging over operations that day was the credible threat that Monis had a bomb in a backpack and was willing to detonate it. Police believed there was a bomb up until Monis was stopped. When the assessment was made that this was a terrorist incident the operation became more complex.

A Command centre was established

Under the Counter Terrorism Protocols a clear chain of command was implemented and clear protocols are required to be followed by police.

An operations centre was also established to allocate resources and gather intelligence.

Because of this heightened terror risk police from across Sydney were redeployed to assist the Police from the Central Metropolitan Region to lock down the area and remove traffic and pedestrians and clear nearby buildings.

Due to the threat posed by the bomb the initial exclusion zone was seen as too small — and had to be expanded. This meant more evacuations, more road closures and more people and traffic to be removed to safety.

These were uniformed police trying to clear the busiest part of Sydney during the busiest part of the day and get people out of the locked down area.

Across Martin Place, the Channel Seven building went into lockdown, while the government offices including State Ministers whose offices’ are in the vicinity were quietly and quickly removed to safety.

That officer stayed at the window putting himself at risk to understand what was happening. No body armour and with only a Glock he placed himself at extraordinary risk to obtain first hand intelligence for the operation to come

As the threat escalated calls starting coming into police that there were other bombs across the city. There was a report, possibly from one of the hostages under duress, that there was a bomb in the Channel Seven building. Police entered, cleared the building of staff and used it during the entire operation despite this bomb threat.

There was a report of another bomb at Town Hall and another at The Opera House. There was a report of a man with firearms in the Martin Place Tunnel. Police responded to each of these calls as an immediate threat to public safety as well as the Lindt Café

Across the city the terror threat sparked broader ground operations in line with the citywide terror response plan. Police were placed on high alert and directed to perform overt patrols to reassure the public and protect critical infrastructure.

Police from State Crime Command, Bass Hill Region Enforcement Squad, the Public Order and Riot squad and other specialist commands were all called into the city.

Inside the cafe Monis forced hostages into ringing radio stations, posting updates on Facebook and calling relatives. Recognising that providing a terrorist with a public forum is one of the most dangerous elements of a siege, police negotiators were deployed to radio newsrooms to deal with incoming calls.
Police Commanders were also fending off unhelpful suggestions from third parties, including Islamic clerics and others seeking to intervene. Monis demanded to speak to the then Prime Minister Tony Abbott. After all, what better way for a terrorist to make a statement than set a bomb off while talking to the PM

As this was all being managed, two uniformed police officers establishing the perimeter were approached by the family of one of the hostages. Other family members gravitated to them and they assumed responsibility for caring for the loved ones of the hostages.

These police secured a room in the old Supreme Court building for the families and stayed with them for the next 14 harrowing hours assisted by a Police Chaplain. These two officers managed their welfare as the hostages were texting and calling them, forming deep bonds with the family members.

My point? In all these varied ways, police were doing what we are trained to do. Putting public safety first and ahead of their own wellbeing.

As the day unfolded specially trained Police worked to develop scenarios around the critical decision of when to intervene with force. Paramount in these considerations were two factors. The wellbeing of the 18 hostages and the belief that Man Monis had a bomb that could be triggered at any time.

Police Commanders worked in co-operation and consultation with other agencies. Under the terrorism protocols officers were liaising with ASIO, Defence, AFP, and Foreign Affairs officials. Defenc
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #17 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:34pm
 
cont.
My point? In all these varied ways, police were doing what we are trained to do. Putting public safety first and ahead of their own wellbeing.

As the day unfolded specially trained Police worked to develop scenarios around the critical decision of when to intervene with force. Paramount in these considerations were two factors. The wellbeing of the 18 hostages and the belief that Man Monis had a bomb that could be triggered at any time.

Police Commanders worked in co-operation and consultation with other agencies. Under the terrorism protocols officers were liaising with ASIO, Defence, AFP, and Foreign Affairs officials. Defence personnel recreated the cafe and planned a range of responses.

The consensus emerged that there was no credible Deliberate Action Plan that would not result in a loss of civilian life.

It is also worth noting that while these events were unfolding there were three other sieges going on at the same time across the State that were being professionally dealt with. It was more than business as usual in the rest of the State as police in all Commands were deployed to protect and reassure communities.

The Entry

With the real prospect that Man Monis would trigger a bomb 14 members of the Tactical Operations Unit prepared to enter the building.

In this scenario, the survival of the officers was unlikely, which is why they called their loved ones and said their goodbyes. Reflect on that. These people expected to die and still did their jobs. Who does that?

Ultimately the call to enter the building came when Monis made the decision to execute a hostage. Prior to this point he had not harmed anyone.

There was much debate about the timing of this decision and I don’t think it is appropriate for me to pass judgment.

But I do know that the Operation Commander was acting on the information before him with a focus on avoiding the loss of life....As they forced entry into the building one of the TOU team was hit by a bullet fired by Monis but he continued into the building regardless. Tactical Police shot and killed Monis. Tragically, one of those bullets fragmented and hit one of the hostages.

At this stage, tactical police and negotiators began retrieving hostages, still under the belief there was the bomb which could detonate via a dead man’s switch or timer. But these Police stayed in the danger zone, clearing the building.

Once the hostages were released, bomb technicians entered the building with an expectation that the bomb could go off.

When the building was finally cleared, a “Critical Incident” was declared and seventy officers were deemed involved. These Police were interviewed and subjected to drug and alcohol testing by the Critical Incident Investigation Team.iii

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cods
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #18 - May 22nd, 2017 at 1:35pm
 
cont.
The basic proposition appeared settled: a Person of Interest — Monis, had dictated the tragic outcome. Police had followed national guidelines and proven tactics.

While two innocent people were killed, that tragic outcome was not as devastating as any of the predicted outcomes from scenarios developed during the day.

Police acted not just professionally, but heroically and applauded from the Premier down. This was the story of the Lindt Café Siege. Until the inquest commenced.

The Coronial Inquest

There was always going to be an inquest as there should be. In fact global terrorism events have proven the benefits of fast and thorough operational reviews. The theory is that terrorist tactics are moving so fast that incidents need to be reviewed quickly, lessons learned and new processes taken on board.

For example in December 2014, terrorists had not begun to use vehicles as a weapon, now it is their modus operandi as evidenced by tragic events overseas.

Instead of a fast turnaround, the NSW Coronial Inquiry took 18 months to commence. A purpose-built courtroom in the CBD was constructed, lawyers were employed, a stand-alone media room was also fitted out. This time delay robbed police of the opportunity to properly debrief and review their operation.

Overseas jurisdictions have recognised that terrorism matters require a thorough, expeditious judge-led commission of inquiry, typically with a six-week time frame.

As with any major Police operation issues such as communications systems, timing of the EA, and other aspects should have been reviewed in a professional, robust and confidential way.

Of course, police decisions should be scrutinised because we need to make the right decisions. If there are areas where performance can be improved the focus is to identify them quickly and rectify them.i








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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #19 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm
 
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #20 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.


Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.
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“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #21 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:16pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.



Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.


Now, now, behave.

Your contribution earlier in this thread was quite insightful, succinct and well written.

Dont spoil it by reverting to your other self.

Besides, dont you see the truth in my post.
No muzzos, no problems.
All it would take is a few nukes to clean the place up.

One on mecca during ramadandandandan.

And a few carefully located ones elsewhere
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #22 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 



That is an extremely presumptuous assumption.... without significant experience with ISIS flag-waving mental cases, how are they to assume a different outcome from the tried and tested 'wait 'em out and keep talking'......??

The police couldn't assume anything - they could only follow procedure and hope he got tired and sick of the stress and gave up.
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« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2017 at 11:27pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #23 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:17pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:56pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 




It's the stupid rule that police work under about preserving life even if it is a worthless terrorist.


But they also suspected he was strapping an expansion vest which would severely limit their shooting options.


With 20 / 20 hindsight a 50 cal sniper round would have been the best option, no discussion, no negotiation, just shoot the prick at the first opportunity.






In hindsight, yes.  In a war situation, no problem - trouble is the authorities were trying to avoid a war.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #24 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:21pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 11:16pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 12:43pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 9:57am:
there was no indication that the situation could not be resolved without further violence, until Mad Man Monis started shooting. 



This is incorrect, as the program will explain tonight.

Police were operating under a "normal" hostage scenario - which they are very good at. But this was not a standard hostage scenario, and the police should have known. In those scenarios, the offender doesn't want to die - he wants to negotiate something and is simply using the hostages as leverage. With Monis, the police should have understood that as soon as he started waving an ISIS flag around and pledging loyalty to ISIS - he had no interest in achieving anything except a body count, nor was he interested in getting out alive. 



That is an extremely presumptuous assumption.... without significant experience with ISIS flag-waving mental cases, how are they to assume a different outcome from the tried and testes 'wait 'em out and keep talking'......??

The police couldn't assume anything - they could only follow procedure and hope he got tired and sick of the stress and gave up.

thats it, spot on. The coppers followed their training and procedure.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #25 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:28pm
 
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:16pm:
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:06pm:
Valkie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:03pm:
And to think.

The number of lives that could be saved had we refused entry of ALL CULTISTS.

Deported anyone who decided that being in a violent, backward, pedophile infested CULT was a good IDEA.

And dropped a few nukes on the home of this parasite breeding disgusting CULT.

And the world would be safer, better , nicer and overall improved.



Cods has hooked Valkie, a big, yellow-bellied, Islamophobe, troutmouth.


Now, now, behave.

Your contribution earlier in this thread was quite insightful, succinct and well written.




You serious?  I passed over it as abysmally stupid... but I'll re-visit for the sake of common decency.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #26 - May 22nd, 2017 at 11:39pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:03am:
Monis was an ASIS/ASIO asset. They should have called his handler to impose on him to surrender peacefully if they wanted the siege to end peacefully.

Perhaps they wanted Monis dead so ASIS/ASIO role in the Monis situation would not be revealed.

How did Monis get bail for the attempted murder of his wife?

1. Why was Monis at large at the time of the siege?
2. Why did police wait for the death of a hostage before entering the cafe?
3. What were the deficiencIes of training and equipment on the night, and how did they affect the outcome?
4. What was the impact of communication failures on the night?
5. Should the army have taken over the siege when it became plain progress had stalled?
6. How effectively did senior police leadership respond?

http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/4675089/six-questions-lindt-siege-inquest-m...

The most serious of these is how did Monis get bail? It could only have happened by high level interference in the case either with the prosecutor or the judiciary.


Ah - 'ere we go then, lads:-

Monis was a security services asset.....

Now why did I not bother to  read the rest?

1. Why was Monis at large at the time of the siege?

He got bail - nobody with a mind knows why.

2. Why did police wait for the death of a hostage before entering the cafe?

That is standard operating procecure while negotiating a hopefully peaceful outcome.

3. What were the deficiencIes of training and equipment on the night, and how did they affect the outcome?

No police agency has the time and resources to spend to train officers to the standard of those who specialise in breaking sieges - those latter spend months and years training for nothing else.  There is some discussion of the firearms used - but you already shot that messenger by saying that a firearms instructor wold be commissioner if he was any good.  News flash - very few cops get to be commissioner.

4. What was the impact of communication failures on the night?

And those were?  The situation was contained, the cafe under close observation, negotiators were working, a break-in team was standing by and moved within seconds of the first killing.

5. Should the army have taken over the siege when it became plain progress had stalled?

Progress in negotiation had not stalled - that is the essence of negotiation - that you keep the suspect talking and wait for him/her to get tired and bored and want to go home.  The army cannot intervene unless on direct request from civilian authorities, who must deem that the situation was indeed out of their ability to control and had only one course of action open - which was to storm the place.  That was explained to you on page one.

6. How effectively did senior police leadership respond?

The police on the job did all that could be done.  Senior police can only stand back and await the outcomes from their trained professional officers doing their job and supervise from a distance, since to attempt micro-control is to hazard the operation by too much interference.  What did you expect them to do?  Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?  They followed procedure.  How would the reporters have gone as the negotiators?

Now I know why I didn't bother before....
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #27 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am
 
Quote:
Order the place be stormed immediately and possibly risk many deaths?


That was the main problem.
What if Monis did have a bomb? -
then everyone including all the cops would have died too.

It's easy to say what's right with hindsight.

Maybe it's lucky that only 2 innocent people died?

Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #28 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:30am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 12:11am:
[quote]
Question.

Why didn't one hostage wait until Monis turned his back on them
& then hit him on the head with a heavy blunt object?
It was an inner city coffee shop. No alpha males present.
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Re: 4 Corners - The Siege
Reply #29 - May 23rd, 2017 at 12:51am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 11:39pm:
... Now I know why I didn't bother before....


You were sober before.
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