Australian Politics Forum - Caesar's version of Islam

freediver

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Caesar's version of Islam
May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:53pm:

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 7:40pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

So Mohammed is not God's prophet then, let alone his final prophet. But then Islam is a lie. The shahada is a laughable lie: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

But the shahada is the gateway to Muslims faith because they DO believe that every word in the Koran was given to Mohammed by Gabriel and that the Koran has existed eternally and is unchangeable for that very reason.

The Koran and Islam are not just full of contradiction - they are all contradiction. Islam is the Vicky Pollard of religions.

Mohammad is God's messenger, but he is not to be obeyed above God.

But Mohammed's message is very contradictory, as you say. How is that a message from god who is not contradictory.

You are the White Queen of Ozpol, it seems. You believe any old impossibility.

Let me explain: if you read the Quran in revelation order, you'll notice that the earliest Surah are written in a tripartite structure that is short and very poetic. Scholars believe it was written this way in order to aid with memory in an oral tradition. The primary theme of the earliest Meccan verses are punishment stories - i.e. God punishes people for not following the signs (ayat) etc. - IT IS NOT PEOPLE WHO PUNISH OTHER PEOPLE. As the Meccan verses progress the text shifts to rebutting those who deny of the Word of the Quran in the form of argumentation.

Then comes the Medinan verses. These are primarily legislation verses which discuss how a community should behave etc.

This one rule is simple: any later verse that contradicts an early verse is to be ignored. In my opinion the earliest surahs actually constitute the Quran, the recitation, not the later verses. The later verses act as a kind of Quranic hadith which talks about what Muhammad does 'after the recitation' and for some reason it has been included as part of the Quran.

Basically, you just need to read the first 10 surahs and so, and that's the Quran; everything else is not.

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 8:52pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 7:59pm:

Most Muslims take the opposite view.

That's because they're ignorant, or they want to manipulate people. Surprise....

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 7:59pm:

So when does the Koran stop being the word of God?

When it contradicts reason.

So how would this version of Islam differ from the conventional one?

Does anyone share your interpretation?

And how do you explain the message being entrusted to someone who went on to behave as Muhammad did?

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Yadda

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #1 - May 20^th, 2017 at 11:52pm

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe.

Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

augcaesarustus,

You are mistaken.

The Koran, as it is, right now, is inerrant, and it always has been inerrant.

Allah himself has declared, that he,
Allah, eternally is protecting the immutability of the Koran.

--------- >

How Does Allah Protect Quran and Islam?
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/faith-and-worship/quran-and-scrip...
Quote:

"Thank you for your question and for contacting Ask About Islam.

You are referring to the Quranic verse that says what means:

{We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Al-Hijr 15:9)

This promise from Allah Almighty to protect the Quran is very important for us as Muslims in order to have confidence in the source of all our knowledge about Islam, the Quran. As you know, people before Islam had received messages from Allah, which they eventually corrupted with changes, additions, and deletions.

The difference between Islam and the religions before Islam, including heavenly religions, is in who was assigned with the protection of the message. In Islam, Allah entrusted Himself with the protection of the Quran; whereas, before, only humans were entrusted to the protection of the divine Scriptures. "

IN ALLAH'S OWN WORDS.....

"They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
"Why bringest thou not angels to us if it be that thou hast the Truth?"
We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the ungodly), behold! no respite would they have!
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."
Koran 15.6-9

.

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:53pm:

Let me explain: if you read the Quran in revelation order, you'll notice that the earliest Surah are written in a tripartite structure that is short and very poetic. Scholars believe it was written this way in order to aid with memory in an oral tradition. The primary theme of the earliest Meccan verses are punishment stories - i.e. God punishes people for not following the signs (ayat) etc. - IT IS NOT PEOPLE WHO PUNISH OTHER PEOPLE. As the Meccan verses progress the text shifts to rebutting those who deny of the Word of the Quran in the form of argumentation.

Then comes the Medinan verses. These are primarily legislation verses which discuss how a community should behave etc.

This one rule is simple: any later verse that contradicts an early verse is to be ignored. In my opinion the earliest surahs actually constitute the Quran, the recitation, not the later verses. The later verses act as a kind of Quranic hadith which talks about what Muhammad does 'after the recitation' and for some reason it has been included as part of the Quran.

Basically, you just need to read the first 10 surahs and so, and that's the Quran; everything else is not.

augcaesarustus,

You are committing a grievous sin!!!!!

What you are promoting, is an 'innovation'.

You are promoting 'innovation', in the understanding of fundamental ISLAMIC precepts and in a new understanding of Allah's immutable and inerrant Koran!

Off with your head, you blasphemer !!!!!!!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #2 - May 21^st, 2017 at 12:24am

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Auggie wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Because they don't know how to interpret the Quran, nor explain their views.

No book can claim the eternal word of God. I don't even think the Quran specifically claims it to be so; I think it's a Hadith or something. Monotheistic faiths are by nature exclusivist - they claim to be the right one - that has nothing to do with spirituality as it does with power and control. Islam is no different in that respect to Christianity or Judaism.

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Frank, Frank, Frank......

My dear boy.

Frank,

The Koran is a simple script to comprehend.

Frank,

For example, if you read these words [Koran 9.29], from the Koran, can't you easily comprehend what the meaning and urgency of those words convey to our understanding ??? !!!!!

Hmm ?

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

People, every day, pick up the Koran, and then they read the words, in the Koran.

And the meaning of the words which they read, in the Koran, are clear and simple and instantly understood.

Allah himself said that it was so.

Allah himself declares - IN THE KORAN ITSELF - that the words in the Koran are clear [perspicuous!!], and therefore those words [contained within the Koran] can only mean.....
what a rational person understands the Koran texts to mean.

Koran
012.001
YUSUFALI: A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
PICKTHAL: Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verse of the Scripture that maketh plain.
SHAKIR: Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest.

Koran
026.002
YUSUFALI: These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
PICKTHAL: These are revelations of the Scripture that maketh plain.
SHAKIR: These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

So......

What's not to understand ?

When Allah said; 'Fight against the disbelievers, and if you die, i will admit you to Allah's paradise, and will give you an erect penis, for all of eternity.', ....dear boy, what is not to understand ?

.....oh yes, and Allah will give you all of those doe-eyed virgins too.

.....oh, and Allah will give for your pleasure, all of that wine and honey too.

You can read the words of the Koran.

So tell me, what is not to understand ?

"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #3 - May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:03pm

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 4:44pm:

Frank wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 3:11pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Is that an Islamic premise or something you just made up?

There were a sect of Muslims called the Mutalizites who emphasized rationality over faith but they were quickly marginalized by the 'powers-at-be'. Irrespective, it's my own thoughts. Do you disagree?

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 3:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

Gandalf likes to point out that Islamic wife beating is better than western wife beating because they are sober and respectful when they do it.

I disagree then. It doesn't matter. All wife-beating is unacceptable, full stop. As far as I'm concerned, I of one mind to got through the Quran with the correction tape and edit out all the verses I don't like.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:09pm by freediver »

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #4 - May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:25pm Oh dear being a new version of Islam Aggie would be killed as a heretic and an apostate... The most important words in Islam... La il laha il Allah, Muhammad a rasool Allah. (There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger)
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Auggie

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #5 - May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:32pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

So how would this version of Islam differ from the conventional one?

It doesn't. The Quran claims that it is a recitation of God. In the early verses of the Quran, Muhammad is seen only as a WARNER who comes to WARN people about the punishment they would receive in Hell. It doesn't call for people to slay to infidels: that is a later tradition.

It is clear if you read the Quran in revelation order that the tradition of Islam has changed (as with other religions too). One only needs to note the changes in prose to realize this.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Does anyone share your interpretation?

Isn't that the point: as Waleed Aly said, that Islam is anarchic (at least in the Sunni tradition); individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

And how do you explain the message being entrusted to someone who went on to behave as Muhammad did?

The 'behaviour' of Muhammad is an interesting notion: at first, the behaviour of the Prophet didn't matter; the Quran wasn't a 'New Testament' in the Christian sense; it was the Word of Quran. For some reason, the 'testimonials of the actions' of Muhammad become canonical; but this is fundamentally against the early traditions of Islam. In terms of his behaviour, I don't care or pay attention to how Muhammad behaved; I only care what 'God says....'

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Auggie

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #6 - May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:40pm

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:52pm:

The Koran, as it is, right now, is inerrant, and it always has been inerrant.

Ok, so the idea that the Quran is inerrant or 'not corrupted' means that the current text of the Quran is the same as it was dictated through Muhammad; it DOES NOT MEAN that it is PERFECT FROM A MORAL OR ETHICAL viewpoint.

That is what 'inerrant' means.

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:52pm:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Again, 'corruption' means changing the Words of the Quran; it doesn't mean that the tenets and values propagated therein are unchangeable.

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:52pm:

You are promoting 'innovation', in the understanding of fundamental ISLAMIC precepts and in a new understanding of Allah's immutable and inerrant Koran!

The Islamic philosphers during the Golden Age didn't concern themselves with 'earthly matters; that was left to the Jurisprudence or Fiqh. The reason for that was probably because they couldn't reconcile the belligerent verses of the Quran, so they ignored them completely.

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:52pm:

Off with your head, you blasphemer !!!!!!!

I don't think so; I haven't insulted the Prophet.

Yadda wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 12:24am:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Then, there are verses such as: "There shall be no compulsion in religion." So, why are you selectively choosing the violent verses?

Yadda wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 12:24am:

Allah himself declares - IN THE KORAN ITSELF - that the words in the Koran are clear [perspicuous!!], and therefore those words [contained within the Koran] can only mean.....
what a rational person understands the Koran texts to mean.

What God means is that the language of the Quran is written in Arabic, that the average person may understand it. It does not mean that there is one sole interpretation.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #7 - May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:41pm Quote: (There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger) Exactly, his messenger, not warlord, leader or spiritual advisor.
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Grendel

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #8 - May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12pm

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:41pm:

Quote:

(There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger)

Exactly, his messenger, not warlord, leader or spiritual advisor.

Anytime you find me calling him a warlord etc, feel free to quote me. You like building strawmen don't you.
Muhammad is much more than a mere messenger, even if you just look at him historically. You seem to want to ignore that fact. Goodo... Cheesy

You also avoided the point I made re your version of Islam... that's ok, most people don't like contemplating their death. Roll Eyes

BTW Moses was a messenger of God too, but he was also much more.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #9 - May 24^th, 2017 at 3:58pm Quote: individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary. Gobble gobble gobble, turkey speak for: We can't condemn doctrinal hate torture and murder, it's infallible and can't be changed, instead we say it doesn't really mean what it says, it's all in the interpretation.
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Mattyfisk

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #10 - May 24^th, 2017 at 5:34pm

moses wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 3:58pm:

Quote:

individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

Gobble gobble gobble, turkey speak for: We can't condemn doctrinal hate torture and murder, it's infallible and can't be changed, instead we say it doesn't really mean what it says, it's all in the interpretation.

We don't say that, Moses. Instead, we say that people are free to interpret texts as they see fit.

You know, like your interpretation of the Bible.

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Auggie

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #11 - May 24^th, 2017 at 5:42pm

Grendel wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12pm:

Muhammad is much more than a mere messenger, even if you just look at him historically. You seem to want to ignore that fact

He wasn't 'more than a messenger' in the earliest Surahs of the Quran; he only become that later.

Regarding Moses, he wasn't just a mere 'warner' he was a leader who led people out of the Egypt. Muhammad's role was always just to be a 'warner' nothing more. That tradition changed later on. But that wasn't his purpose.

Grendel wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12pm:

You also avoided the point I made re your version of Islam...

Which was what exactly?

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Auggie

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #12 - May 24^th, 2017 at 5:45pm

moses wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 3:58pm:

Quote:

individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

Gobble gobble gobble, turkey speak for: We can't condemn doctrinal hate torture and murder, it's infallible and can't be changed, instead we say it doesn't really mean what it says, it's all in the interpretation.

Moses, interpretation includes ignoring verses. I don't re-interpret the violent verses, I just ignore them.

Even if Islam preaches hate and intolerance, there's no reason why a person just can't ignore those verses.

And by the way, I absolutely condemn all acts of violence against anyone, irrespective of the reasons. I'm so much of a pacifist that I don't even consider poverty as a reason for a violence.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46588 Gender:	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #13 - May 24^th, 2017 at 7:57pm m
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46588 Gender:	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #14 - May 24^th, 2017 at 8:30pm m
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged