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Hail to the algorithm! (Read 1584 times)
bogarde73
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Hail to the algorithm!
May 1st, 2017 at 10:49am
 
A more dystopian view.

Until the late 18th century people weren't valued too much.
Sure there had been periods, such as after the various plagues, when economic historians have shown us the value of labour rose dramatically, virtually finishing off the feudal system at the same time.
But during the 19th and most of the 20th century people became a more valuable commodity, to man the factories of the industrial revolution and the associated infrastructure, as well as to provide the much larger armies for the bigger wars.

As labour became more necessary in large numbers, so too did it become necessary for the state, except in dictatorships for a while, to cede political power - universal suffrage eventually, freedom of association etc.
The value of labour has however shown little increase in the past 20 or so years. Why is that?
Technology.

In the next 20,30,40 years AI and associated technology will probably be able to do everything that humans now do. Humans need not apply.

How will that change the dynamics? At present for instance, transport workers, sufficiently organised and united, can shut down the system and gain much of what they consider fair.
But how far away are driverless buses and trains?

We look favourably on technology at present because it improves our lives, although in some respects that is debatable. But how will we feel about it when it becomes more and more a competitor?
More importantly, as the value of people as an income producing asset declines and becomes a liability instead, how will the state view citizens?
Will their political power be reduced? Political power has followed economic value in the past.

Will we always be in control of AI or could it develop a will of its own as well as intelligence way beyond anything a human is capable of.

If it's possible, hide your face from the bots and all technology they have access to, no?
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2017 at 11:07am
 
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Gordon
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2017 at 11:44am
 
Too cryptic?
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2017 at 12:31pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 10:49am:
How will that change the dynamics? At present for instance, transport workers, sufficiently organised and united, can shut down the system and gain much of what they consider fair.
But how far away are driverless buses and trains?



I was riding on driverless trains in Asia over two years ago.  The new NW metro in Sydney will be driverless. The technology is already here.

Transport, especially taxis and trucks, are in for a massive shakeup. AI simply does it better - a computer doesn't doze off, get angry in traffic, take drugs to stay awake, tailgate or forget to look at an intersection.

Eventually not having a driverless truck or car will be a disadvantage versus your competitors who do, and at that point the change will happen very quickly.

As for the people in that industry - most of them will get other jobs, just as happens when other tech advances are made. You don't see crowds of typists hanging around outside the CES do you.
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bogarde73
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2017 at 1:04pm
 
Stig, what you say, the popular response, that people will get other new jobs is a historical truth but it doesn't follow that it will be a future truth as well.

We are facing a situation where AI and technology can do everything we do better & cheaper
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2017 at 1:16pm
 
Stig wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 12:31pm:
bogarde73 wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 10:49am:
How will that change the dynamics? At present for instance, transport workers, sufficiently organised and united, can shut down the system and gain much of what they consider fair.
But how far away are driverless buses and trains?



I was riding on driverless trains in Asia over two years ago.  The new NW metro in Sydney will be driverless. The technology is already here.

Transport, especially taxis and trucks, are in for a massive shakeup. AI simply does it better - a computer doesn't doze off, get angry in traffic, take drugs to stay awake, tailgate or forget to look at an intersection.

Eventually not having a driverless truck or car will be a disadvantage versus your competitors who do, and at that point the change will happen very quickly.

As for the people in that industry - most of them will get other jobs, just as happens when other tech advances are made. You don't see crowds of typists hanging around outside the CES do you.


There's a driver-less train-thingy in Italy that takes you over to the main part of Venice.

I remember that from 3 or 4 years ago.

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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2017 at 1:43pm
 



In nature, where a particular species is able to vastly 'overpopulate', that 'social milieu' becomes an 'opportunity' for harmful 'natural' pathogens which take advantage of that 'opportunity', to specialise in 'feasting' on that population.


pestilence = = a fatal epidemic disease.




snow leopard population, circa 2017, about 5,000

homo sapien sapien population, circa 2017, 6 billion plus.

homo sapien sapien    [it means the clever, clever ape]



.




Q.
Have we, as a species, outlived our hunger to strive ?

Q.
Is it time for a pop crash, for homo sapien sapien ?


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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2017 at 1:44pm
 
To some extent, the response to a more automated world depends on how one sees one's self, and what we want to do with our lives. I have never wanted to drive a bus or a truck. Nor have I ever pursued a career simply because it looked like a good job. I consider those to be the activities of the hive's drones, and I have been observing the drones all my life, because one of my interests is the human condition. What has been obvious to me since high school, is that the drones reach retirement and then, more often than not, they quickly die of boredom.

Because of my insatiable curiosity, I don't find myself in that situation. I like to read, write, study history, art, and music, and practice craftsmanship among many other things which I am not prepared to list as they may help to identify me. I don't see automation as a threat, it was always meant to free us. For those who see a threat in technological automation, I suggest they stop wasting their lives on trivial diversions and their jobs, and study creative possibilities that are the true fulfillment of life, and that are not even remotely threatened by technology. In fact, such cerebral pursuits have never been more accessible, precisely because of technology.
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #8 - May 1st, 2017 at 3:13pm
 
^^^ Thats the way - imply anyone less than 100% enthusiastic about the brave new world is defective - nothing more than a mindless drone

Never mind that technological advance tracks an identical trajectory to wealth inequality - you should get excited about all the time youll have on your hands when youre replaced - just dont let your mind wander to the question of how youll afford to survive, let alone thrive. 

The common answer is that we'll all become robot repairmen...but what happens when the robots take that over too?  Become Robot repair robot repairmen?  Eh doesnt matter, we'll just kick the can down the road, surely someone in the future will figure out how to stop the machine we were too weak to stop now.
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bogarde73
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2017 at 3:13pm
 
It's not a threat to my job or life either issuevoter, but it may well be a threat to the lives and freedom of younger generations.
Whatever affects the mass of the people is bound to have an impact on everybody.

I have been assimilating a lot of information on this issue and one thing I don't buy is "don't worry, there will be new jobs".
This was true for the stage coaches when the railways put them out of business but it is not true when a 24 hour bot replaces everything and anything.
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #10 - May 1st, 2017 at 5:04pm
 
Yeah, I didn't think pointing out the drone-like nature of much of society would go down too well, but while taking umbrage at the suggestion, figure out what you are going to think about when you have too much time on your hands.
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #11 - May 1st, 2017 at 5:23pm
 
You are right in your assessment - where schools once prepared students for a life as a process worker, now they prepare them for life as a paper pusher.  The common yhread is that those with control of the "means of production"dictate the direction we take.

But rather than sneering that some didnt fare as well as us, we should reevaulate whether a drone like existence, in servitude to a corporate queen, is what our society should aspire to.  Being a "higher class" of drone is small consolation - your existence still serves a master who doesnt give a bugger about you.
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #12 - May 1st, 2017 at 8:07pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 10:49am:
A more dystopian view.

Until the late 18th century people weren't valued too much.
Sure there had been periods, such as after the various plagues, when economic historians have shown us the value of labour rose dramatically, virtually finishing off the feudal system at the same time.
But during the 19th and most of the 20th century people became a more valuable commodity, to man the factories of the industrial revolution and the associated infrastructure, as well as to provide the much larger armies for the bigger wars.

As labour became more necessary in large numbers, so too did it become necessary for the state, except in dictatorships for a while, to cede political power - universal suffrage eventually, freedom of association etc.
The value of labour has however shown little increase in the past 20 or so years. Why is that?
Technology.

In the next 20,30,40 years AI and associated technology will probably be able to do everything that humans now do. Humans need not apply.

How will that change the dynamics? At present for instance, transport workers, sufficiently organised and united, can shut down the system and gain much of what they consider fair.
But how far away are driverless buses and trains?

We look favourably on technology at present because it improves our lives, although in some respects that is debatable. But how will we feel about it when it becomes more and more a competitor?
More importantly, as the value of people as an income producing asset declines and becomes a liability instead, how will the state view citizens?
Will their political power be reduced? Political power has followed economic value in the past.

Will we always be in control of AI or could it develop a will of its own as well as intelligence way beyond anything a human is capable of.

If it's possible, hide your face from the bots and all technology they have access to, no?


It was by no means necessary. Beneficial from an economic perspective, and perhaps inevitable because of this, but not necessary, and it only arose independently on a small number of occasions.

Quote:
We are facing a situation where AI and technology can do everything we do better & cheaper


Computers have recently outdone humans at chess. Not yet at driving cars. Not exactly a blitz.
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #13 - May 1st, 2017 at 8:29pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 1:04pm:
Stig, what you say, the popular response, that people will get other new jobs is a historical truth but it doesn't follow that it will be a future truth as well.

We are facing a situation where AI and technology can do everything we do better & cheaper


There's plenty of jobs that a computer or robot can't do as well as people. AI is only to take jobs where they have a clear advantage.

A driverless truck, when properly developed, will have a huge advantage over a human driver. But even leaving aside creative jobs, there's plenty of others where a robot won't have a clear advantage or where people won't want to interact with one (aircrew, barista, home help?) so humans in those jobs will be around for a long time yet.

And those jobs that are lost will result in most cases in a knock on benefit to the rest of us. Driverless trucks that use less fuel, don't have nearly as many accidents and deliver goods in less time over long distances will result in cheaper products, among other things.
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« Last Edit: May 1st, 2017 at 8:35pm by Stig »  
 
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bogarde73
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Re: Hail to the algorithm!
Reply #14 - May 3rd, 2017 at 10:41am
 
When 800 executives were surveyed for a World Economic Forum report published in September 2015, three-quarters said company audits would be performed by artificial intelligence by 2021.

A similar proportion reckoned the world would have witnessed the first tax collected via blockchain within that timeframe, while 45 per cent said robots would be occupying places at the board room table.
Clearly, the tax profession is ripe for digital disruption.

In a new briefing paper, KPMG envisages a world where much tax compliance work is done by machines, leaving humans to pick up the more complex tasks.
(Who's kidding who?)



While computers will do the heavy lifting on the number crunching front, tasks requiring "judgement" will still be the domain of flesh-and-blood advisers, according to a report authored by Grant Wardell-Johnson, the leader of KPMG's Australian Tax Centre.

Compliance has been streamlined and continues to become more efficient," it says.

"This will form a sound foundation for even greater specialisation through the use of clever algorithms to calculate tax liabilities.

"Some of this may be mechanistic, such as a thin capitalisation calculation."

But as exemplified by IBM's Watson computer system, robots will also be able to learn from data to perform more complex tasks.
 
Machines can now be programmed to consider millions of images of horses and cows and thus draw their own delineation for what makes a horse different to a cow.

"This is profound and is one of the factors that will lead to the Fourth Industrial Revolution," the report says.

"In the tax world computers could 'learn' to distinguish between an expense which constitutes a deductible repair and one that is non-deductible improvement."


Legal research is another area of work that will be heavily affected.

"Indeed one can imagine a computer considering the optimal tax structure for an investment in the future," the report says.

The report judiciously avoids any mention of the potential for mass job losses such as those have hit the media. Rather, the role of accountants and tax professionals will evolve, it says.
(Trust accountant's for predictions? Sure can)

"There is still a significant role for judgement. That role has been enhanced given the complexity of dealing with a greater number of stakeholders and the reputational risk involved in tax moving into the domain of corporate social responsibility."
 
On an optimistic note, job creation might even result.

"If there has been a trend in tax for offshoring, that trend may be reversed with 're-shoring'.

"In a technological environment, generally involving low marginal costs, the cost of employment becomes a diminished factor in determining where activities are carried out."

At the same time, tax professionals will become more like free agents, possibly assisting companies on an as-needs basis rather than being bound to one employer.
 
The report, Tax Technology: Embracing 'the now' and thinking 'the future', was launched at an event in Sydney called Catalyst.

:AFR




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Know the enemies of a civil society by their public behaviour, by their fraudulent claim to be liberal-progressive, by their propensity to lie and, above all, by their attachment to authoritarianism.
 
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