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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #15 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:57am

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:53am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:41am:

I don't get angry Setanta. Ever.

But i will challenge ignorance and prejudice at every turn.

99% of what is said on here about Islam is just crap. As i have said a dozen times, if you want open discourse on Islam, you simply cannot start from a position of falsehood. You can't objectively critique something when you're misinformed about what you are critiquing.

I only tell the truth. I a happy to have an objective discussion about Islam ... as much as i know of it anyway ... as i'm sure is Gandalf ... but he's too busy defending outright lies and raging prejudice.

To have open discourse, you need to start at ground zero. There is none of that on this forum.

Islam is a nasty ideology. Just because many people ignore parts of it and still follow it, does not change the root. If there were some nice Nazis would you defend it? Just as Christianity and Judaism are nasty Ideologies and they are the root of Islam. All of them suck and should not be defended. All that should be defended is peoples right to hold these ideologies.

I'm the same with the political spectrum. I'm a lefty, I think the righties are wrong but I won't judge them on their opinions. I won't support or agree with most of their ideology but I will allow them to hold those views without rancour, they are entitled as human beings to hold whatever ideas they deem worthy.

What do you think is nasty about Islam, Setanta?

Let's have an objective discussion now.

Why do you think so many millions of people are able to live peaceful lives following Islam, if it is so nasty?

There is nothing redeeming about Nazism. They are not equatable. No matter how often FD says it.

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Setanta

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #16 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:08am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:57am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:53am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:41am:

I don't get angry Setanta. Ever.

But i will challenge ignorance and prejudice at every turn.

99% of what is said on here about Islam is just crap. As i have said a dozen times, if you want open discourse on Islam, you simply cannot start from a position of falsehood. You can't objectively critique something when you're misinformed about what you are critiquing.

I only tell the truth. I a happy to have an objective discussion about Islam ... as much as i know of it anyway ... as i'm sure is Gandalf ... but he's too busy defending outright lies and raging prejudice.

To have open discourse, you need to start at ground zero. There is none of that on this forum.

Islam is a nasty ideology. Just because many people ignore parts of it and still follow it, does not change the root. If there were some nice Nazis would you defend it? Just as Christianity and Judaism are nasty Ideologies and they are the root of Islam. All of them suck and should not be defended. All that should be defended is peoples right to hold these ideologies.

I'm the same with the political spectrum. I'm a lefty, I think the righties are wrong but I won't judge them on their opinions. I won't support or agree with most of their ideology but I will allow them to hold those views without rancour, they are entitled as human beings to hold whatever ideas they deem worthy.

What do you think is nasty about Islam, Setanta?

Let's have an objective discussion now.

Why do you think so many millions of people are able to live peaceful lives following Islam, if it is so nasty?

There is nothing redeeming about Nazism. They are not equatable. No matter how often FD says it.

Should a raped girl marry her raper? You can use this one in all three desert religions. Perhaps she should be stoned? What about the unbelievers? These are part of Islam just as stoning your rebellious son at the gates of the city is Christian and Judaic, their book says so. As I said, just because people choose to ignore part of their scriptures does not make the scriptures worthy of respect.

There is nothing to defend in Islam, the parts that people pick out that are good are the same in all of the religions, the golden rule.

Others may disagree with your opinion of Nazism, will you defend their right to hold those beliefs?

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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #17 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:08am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:57am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:53am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 1:41am:

I don't get angry Setanta. Ever.

But i will challenge ignorance and prejudice at every turn.

99% of what is said on here about Islam is just crap. As i have said a dozen times, if you want open discourse on Islam, you simply cannot start from a position of falsehood. You can't objectively critique something when you're misinformed about what you are critiquing.

I only tell the truth. I a happy to have an objective discussion about Islam ... as much as i know of it anyway ... as i'm sure is Gandalf ... but he's too busy defending outright lies and raging prejudice.

To have open discourse, you need to start at ground zero. There is none of that on this forum.

Islam is a nasty ideology. Just because many people ignore parts of it and still follow it, does not change the root. If there were some nice Nazis would you defend it? Just as Christianity and Judaism are nasty Ideologies and they are the root of Islam. All of them suck and should not be defended. All that should be defended is peoples right to hold these ideologies.

I'm the same with the political spectrum. I'm a lefty, I think the righties are wrong but I won't judge them on their opinions. I won't support or agree with most of their ideology but I will allow them to hold those views without rancour, they are entitled as human beings to hold whatever ideas they deem worthy.

What do you think is nasty about Islam, Setanta?

Let's have an objective discussion now.

Why do you think so many millions of people are able to live peaceful lives following Islam, if it is so nasty?

There is nothing redeeming about Nazism. They are not equatable. No matter how often FD says it.

Should a raped girl marry her raper? You can use this one in all three desert religions. Perhaps she should be stoned? What about the unbelievers? These are part of Islam just as stoning your rebellious son at the gates of the city is Christian and Judaic, their book says so. As I said, just because people choose to ignore part of their scriptures does not make the scriptures worthy of respect.

There is nothing to defend in Islam, the parts that people pick out that are good are the same in all of the religions, the golden rule.

Others may disagree with your opinion of Nazism, will you defend their right to hold those beliefs?

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

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Setanta

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #18 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:20am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am:

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

Nazi German was a repressive regime, not all Nazis wanted all Jews dead. Were all Nazis bad?

The problem is the scripture supports a repressive regime. The Muslims that do not support repressive regimes are not following scripture. They like most Christians choose to ignore the bad stuff. That's all well and good but it doesn't change the idea that Islam is. It's toxic as are the other desert religions and can be used to do any number of barbarities.

You can support Muslims(people) without supporting their ideas(Islam).

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #19 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:42am

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:20am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am:

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

Nazi German was a repressive regime, not all Nazis wanted all Jews dead. Were all Nazis bad?

The problem is the scripture supports a repressive regime. The Muslims that do not support repressive regimes are not following scripture. They like most Christians choose to ignore the bad stuff. That's all well and good but it doesn't change the idea that Islam is. It's toxic as are the other desert religions and can be used to do any number of barbarities.

You can support Muslims(people) without supporting their ideas(Islam).

Setanta, the Muslims who choose to interpret the Quran peacefully claim they are interpreting the true meaning of it.

Ask Gandalf.

Malala Yousafzai says that when you hurt another, you are no longer a Muslim. The Dalai Lama says the same.

I prefer their interpretation to those of the war torn Middle East, that is still finding it's feet after decades of border shufflings, puppet dictators, wars and Western intervention.

It's about who you listen to.

As for Nazism, what is altruistic in it's ideology? What is peaceful? Does it speak of charity and compassion? Of peace and tolerance?

The Quran does. It does indeed.

Many, many millions of Muslims are testament to this.

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Setanta

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #20 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:55am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:42am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:20am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am:

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

Nazi German was a repressive regime, not all Nazis wanted all Jews dead. Were all Nazis bad?

The problem is the scripture supports a repressive regime. The Muslims that do not support repressive regimes are not following scripture. They like most Christians choose to ignore the bad stuff. That's all well and good but it doesn't change the idea that Islam is. It's toxic as are the other desert religions and can be used to do any number of barbarities.

You can support Muslims(people) without supporting their ideas(Islam).

Setanta, the Muslims who choose to interpret the Quran peacefully claim they are interpreting the true meaning of it.

Ask Gandalf.

Malala Yousafzai says that when you hurt another, you are no longer a Muslim. The Dalai Lama says the same.

I prefer their interpretation to those of the war torn Middle East, that is still finding it's feet after decades of border shufflings, puppet dictators, wars and Western intervention.

It's about who you listen to.

As for Nazism, what is altruistic in it's ideology? What is peaceful? Does it speak of charity and compassion? Of peace and tolerance?

The Quran does. It does indeed.

Many, many millions of Muslims are testament to this.

They can claim what they like, doesn't make it true, just look around at what other Moslems claim. This is the problem I have mentioned, just because they chose to ignore the nasties, it does not absolve the whole ideology. As Greg pointed out, Westborough Baptists. They are more biblical than almost all Christians. They follow their scripture literally.

Islam sucks, there is more than enough evidence of that in what it's adherents do in it's name. Support the Muslim, he is your brother, condemn the ideology, it is his chains.

edit: If you were a Nazi, sure it was. Even got 72 virgins to breed with. Lebensborn Grin

Is Islam peaceful and altruistic? Are Islamic countries taking in their poor and downtrodden? I'm sure it's scriptural that they should.

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« Last Edit: Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:11am by Setanta »

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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #21 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:14am

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:55am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:42am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:20am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am:

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

Nazi German was a repressive regime, not all Nazis wanted all Jews dead. Were all Nazis bad?

The problem is the scripture supports a repressive regime. The Muslims that do not support repressive regimes are not following scripture. They like most Christians choose to ignore the bad stuff. That's all well and good but it doesn't change the idea that Islam is. It's toxic as are the other desert religions and can be used to do any number of barbarities.

You can support Muslims(people) without supporting their ideas(Islam).

Setanta, the Muslims who choose to interpret the Quran peacefully claim they are interpreting the true meaning of it.

Ask Gandalf.

Malala Yousafzai says that when you hurt another, you are no longer a Muslim. The Dalai Lama says the same.

I prefer their interpretation to those of the war torn Middle East, that is still finding it's feet after decades of border shufflings, puppet dictators, wars and Western intervention.

It's about who you listen to.

As for Nazism, what is altruistic in it's ideology? What is peaceful? Does it speak of charity and compassion? Of peace and tolerance?

The Quran does. It does indeed.

Many, many millions of Muslims are testament to this.

They can claim what they like, doesn't make it true, just look around at what other Moslems claim. This is the problem I have mentioned, just because they chose to ignore the nasties, it does not absolve the whole ideology. As Greg pointed out, Westborough Baptists. They are more biblical than almost all Christians. They follow their scripture literally.

Islam sucks, there is more than enough evidence of that in what it's adherents do in it's name. Support the Muslim, he is your brother, condemn the ideology, it is his slavery.

Too simplistic. You are negating all the good because of the bad.

I am asking you to try to negate the bad because of the good.

Scholars pour over these texts to try to fit them into modern minds. Look at Moses scramble over the use of the word "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17. But would you not argue that great charitable works are being done by Christians? That Pope Francis isn't just a bit of a dude? Whether you agree with him on everything or not.

As i said previously, some of the qualities i most pride myself on have come from my Catholic upbringing. My mother, who is still very Catholic is a damn good woman who fights for refugees and war victims and marched against the last Gulf War.

That said, i am not a Christian and find the whole thing unpalatable. Personally. I do not, however, focus on the Lord's Resistance Army and other revolting Christian groups to base my objections upon. My objections are my own. Deeply considered and well versed.

Likewise, i do not base my opinion of Islam on what i consider the misuse of it's tenets. I believe to interpret anything in the negative is a misuse. All of the alleged violent passages in the Quran can and have been explained by peaceful scholars. There is more in the Quran to recommend it to women, for example, than there is in the Bible or the Torah... yet there is much to do in all of these religions before women are truly equal.

Part of my problem with them. I asked my mother once who God's mummy was. I never received a satisfactory answer.

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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #22 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:23am

"If you were a Nazi, sure it was. Even got 72 virgins to breed with. Lebensborn Grin Is Islam peaceful and altruistic? Are Islamic countries taking in their poor and downtrodden? I'm sure it's scriptural that they should."

First up, i'm pretty sure Nazis know their ideology is about supremacy of some people and the persecution of others.

Secondly, yes indeed Muslim majority countries are taking refugees. They are in fact, doing most of the heavy lifting.

Don;t judge them all by Saudi Arabia, the US ally. They are extreme human rights violators with absolutely no soul.

That said, i had a story pop up on my facebook feed about a Saudi girl living in the US who was teased about her hijab. She was accused of not being able to take it off or her father would beat her.

She sent him a message and it and his response went viral.

She asked him if she could take off her hijab, as she was being badly treated because of it,

He, a Saudi man, said, no man can tell you what to do. You must follow your own conscience.

So even in the worst of places, there are people who interpret Islam peacefully.

I think these people deserve a voice ... which, to answer your original question Setanta, is why i fight.

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Setanta

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #23 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:23am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:14am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:55am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:42am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:20am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 2:13am:

Those things are part of repressive regimes, Setanta. I categorically condemn all of the things you mentioned.

However, not all Muslims do those things. The majority in fact, do not do those things.

Yet they are every bit as Islamic.

And yes, i defend a person's right to be a Nazi. But i will call them on it. As will the law.

Nazi German was a repressive regime, not all Nazis wanted all Jews dead. Were all Nazis bad?

The problem is the scripture supports a repressive regime. The Muslims that do not support repressive regimes are not following scripture. They like most Christians choose to ignore the bad stuff. That's all well and good but it doesn't change the idea that Islam is. It's toxic as are the other desert religions and can be used to do any number of barbarities.

You can support Muslims(people) without supporting their ideas(Islam).

Setanta, the Muslims who choose to interpret the Quran peacefully claim they are interpreting the true meaning of it.

Ask Gandalf.

Malala Yousafzai says that when you hurt another, you are no longer a Muslim. The Dalai Lama says the same.

I prefer their interpretation to those of the war torn Middle East, that is still finding it's feet after decades of border shufflings, puppet dictators, wars and Western intervention.

It's about who you listen to.

As for Nazism, what is altruistic in it's ideology? What is peaceful? Does it speak of charity and compassion? Of peace and tolerance?

The Quran does. It does indeed.

Many, many millions of Muslims are testament to this.

They can claim what they like, doesn't make it true, just look around at what other Moslems claim. This is the problem I have mentioned, just because they chose to ignore the nasties, it does not absolve the whole ideology. As Greg pointed out, Westborough Baptists. They are more biblical than almost all Christians. They follow their scripture literally.

Islam sucks, there is more than enough evidence of that in what it's adherents do in it's name. Support the Muslim, he is your brother, condemn the ideology, it is his slavery.

Too simplistic. You are negating all the good because of the bad.

I am asking you to try to negate the bad because of the good.

Scholars pour over these texts to try to fit them into modern minds. Look at Moses scramble over the use of the word "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17. But would you not argue that great charitable works are being done by Christians? That Pope Francis isn't just a bit of a dude? Whether you agree with him on everything or not.

As i said previously, some of the qualities i most pride myself on have come from my Catholic upbringing. My mother, who is still very Catholic is a damn good woman who fights for refugees and war victims and marched against the last Gulf War.

That said, i am not a Christian and find the whole thing unpalatable. Personally. I do not, however, focus on the Lord's Resistance Army and other revolting Christian groups to base my objections upon. My objections are my own. Deeply considered and well versed.

Likewise, i do not base my opinion of Islam on what i consider the misuse of it's tenets. I believe to interpret anything in the negative is a misuse. All of the alleged violent passages in the Quran can and have been explained by peaceful scholars. There is more in the Quran to recommend it to women, for example, than there is in the Bible or the Torah... yet there is much to do in all of these religions before women are truly equal.

Part of my problem with them. I asked my mother once who God's mummy was. I never received a satisfactory answer.

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. Islam is a pox on the world as are all religions that claim their god is the only one... out of none.

I'l not condemn it's followers because of it... Forgive them Father for they know not what they do--> Ignorance.

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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #24 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:29am

All gods are the same god. Even my Catholic mother agrees with that.

If you believe in god at all, that is.

Don't validate the war lovers, Setanta. Validate the peaceful. They are being drowned out by the war lovers, despite their best efforts.

And extremism wears many different clothes. We see extremism on this forum on a daily basis.

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Setanta

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #25 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:42am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:29am:

All gods are the same god. Even my Catholic mother agrees with that.

If you believe in god at all, that is.

Don't validate the war lovers, Setanta. Validate the peaceful. They are being drowned out by the war lovers, despite their best efforts.

And extremism wears many different clothes. We see extremism on this forum on a daily basis.

I won't validate bullshit, so I can't validate the ideology, I can separate the person from their ideology if they are reasonable.

You know, if you could do the same, you could be seen as a supporter of people(Muslims) rather than their ideology.

I guess we have different ideas about what constitutes the rights of people. I'm all for 18c being watered down, I think we should have the right to say what we like as long as it does not call for violence on another person. I don't care if anyone takes offence by what anyone says.

I don't support religion, it's a pox. I don't care what adherents say. I've seen what it has wrought. I'll accept any reasonable person, I will not support their fantasies.

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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 15914 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: trailer trash Reply #26 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:52am Night Mothra, 3:50 and I have to do some shyte tomorrow. I could happily sit here for a few more hours but I'd be gefickt, must have some sleep to do what I need to do. Edit: If you want to get a quick one in... I'm going to have a smoke before I hit the hay.
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mothra

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #27 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:52am

I and Greg, John, Brian and others are often accused on here of apologising for extremists.

We do not. We categorically condemn them. We say so often.

But we defend the peaceful. We fight against the inclusion of the "all" into the narrative against the few.

We remind people that horrible things are done by all sorts of people.

If we seem repetitive or even "trollish" in what we do, then that is an unfortunate consequence of having to say the same damn thing over and over again and it simply not registering.

See, i consider the feelings of Muslims. I would hate for one to look in on this forum, after coming across it in a google search, and seeing the kinds of comments that are made without them being challenged.

And while people like Gordy start thread after thread after thread demonising Muslims for sh1ts and giggles, you will have people like me and Greg and John and Brian and others providing a counter argument ... and calling him and those like him on their prejudice.

See? We fight extremism. All of it.

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« Last Edit: Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:00am by Setanta »

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #28 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:00am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:52am:

I and Greg, John, Brian and others are often accused on here of apologising for extremists.

We do not. We categorically condemn them. We say so often.

But we defend the peaceful. We fight against the inclusion of the "all" into the narrative against the few.

We remind people that horrible things are done by all sorts of people.

If we seem repetitive or even "trollish" in what we do, then that is an unfortunate consequence of having to say the same damn thing over and over again and it simply not registering.

See, i consider the feelings of Muslims. I would hate for one to look in on this forum, after coming across it in a google search, and seeing the kinds of comments that are made without them being challenged.

And while people like Gordy start thread after thread after thread demonising Muslims for sh1ts and giggles, you will have people like me and Greg and John and Brian and others providing a counter argument ... and calling him and those like him on their prejudice.

See? We fight extremism. All of it.

(Sorry for the edit. Hit modify instead of quote)
Would you do the same and consider the feelings of Atheists on the recent beheading? Their anger at the ideology that made it happen?

Gordy has made it clear it's Islam and one particular branch, but when he points it out he is an islamophobe. After a while you will just go with it because you have no choice. Then you enter the feedback loop.

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Re: trailer trash
Reply #29 - Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:04am

Setanta wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:42am:

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 3:29am:

All gods are the same god. Even my Catholic mother agrees with that.

If you believe in god at all, that is.

Don't validate the war lovers, Setanta. Validate the peaceful. They are being drowned out by the war lovers, despite their best efforts.

And extremism wears many different clothes. We see extremism on this forum on a daily basis.

I won't validate bullshit, so I can't validate the ideology, I can separate the person from their ideology if they are reasonable.

You know, if you could do the same, you could be seen as a supporter of people(Muslims) rather than their ideology.

I guess we have different ideas about what constitutes the rights of people. I'm all for 18c being watered down, I think we should have the right to say what we like as long as it does not call for violence on another person. I don't care if anyone takes offence by what anyone says.

I don't support religion, it's a pox. I don't care what adherents say. I've seen what it has wrought. I'll accept any reasonable person, I will not support their fantasies.

Yeah but Setanta, you are overlooking other people's perceptions.

I agree with you, indeed. But billions don't agree with us at all.

Who am i to tell my mother she is full of bullshit? Or to tell Gandalf that he is full of bullshit? Simply because i don't agree with them about some stuff that doesn't really matter all that much in my dealings with them?

Why would i choose to offend them so? That is not the way to peace.

Isn't there enough disagreement to go around than to pick fights with people who interpret old books peacefully and believe in a God of sorts?

Hasn't there been enough blood spilled over gods? Although it is indeed true that most religious wars have been about something else entirely. As is currently the case in the Middle East.

You are, of course, absolutely entitled to think it's ll crap. But does it bring peace to tell other people that what they deeply believe is nothing but crap?

Why would you want to do that?

I don't understand.

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