Australian Politics Forum - For those who support then minimum wage...

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #30 - Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:20pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:37pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 12:41pm:

For those who support the minimum wage....

Give me a job or shut the f' up.

Get a job dipstick.....!!!

Potato peeler $10:50/hr.

Description: Peel potatoes and keep potato peeler clean

40 hours a week ($420)

So does minimum wage still sound so bad...........???

Move to India - average weekly earnings $10..... good luck...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #31 - Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:21pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You cannot legally enter into a voluntary agreement with an employer unless that agreement abides by the rules. If you are suggesting that you are prepared to sign away wage rates and conditions, one or both of you will end up being prosecuted.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #32 - Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:22pm

crocodile wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:41pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:18pm:

crocodile wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 8:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You should have no problem doing that many Australian employers pay below the minimum wage, they are onlt caught out if someone complains.

Employers either do it in the countryside, or to internationals mostly. The majority of employers won't pay below the minimum wage. You know this.

Is anything stopping you from being an independent contractor and producing invoices for payment.

That's a good idea, but would employers being willing to employ someone on that basis?

Don't see why not. No workers comp, no holiday pay no termination payouts and no sickies. All for $10.50 / hr. Sounds like a great deal to any prospective employer, err I mean customer.

Yeah - the Indian bosses do that all the time with their servo staff....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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crocodile

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #33 - Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:32pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:22pm:

crocodile wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:41pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:18pm:

crocodile wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 8:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 8:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You should have no problem doing that many Australian employers pay below the minimum wage, they are onlt caught out if someone complains.

Employers either do it in the countryside, or to internationals mostly. The majority of employers won't pay below the minimum wage. You know this.

Is anything stopping you from being an independent contractor and producing invoices for payment.

That's a good idea, but would employers being willing to employ someone on that basis?

Don't see why not. No workers comp, no holiday pay no termination payouts and no sickies. All for $10.50 / hr. Sounds like a great deal to any prospective employer, err I mean customer.

Yeah - the Indian bosses do that all the time with their servo staff....

I wouldn't know but I'll take your word for it.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #34 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 12:08am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:18pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 1:14pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 12:59pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 12:41pm:

For those who support the minimum wage....

Give me a job or shut the f' up.

Aha - the truth so well concealed......

And what truth is that, Ye Grappler?

Simply that you are young and unemployed..... which goes a long way towards explaining why you do not understand or accept that reducing wage conditions for a selected group is anathema in this nation and society, and is also never going to have any meaningful effect on employment and unemployment, though you fervently hope that by pushing that line it somehow will, and you might land a job.

You'd have to be one of those 'millennials' that I thrashed on my daughter's Facebook page the other day - always pointing the finger at the very people who provided all the benefits you enjoy today. Perhaps my daughter will never forgive me for pounding one of her friends who made some stupid comments.

I'm actually not young, Grappler; nor am I unemployed. I work part-time and am looking to supplement my income.

What you don't understand is that the collective is imposing its will on the individual, and inhibiting the right of the individual to engage in a voluntary contract. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if I could work for $10 p/h, I'd have a better chance of getting a job in my situation.

I certainly don't point my finger at the older generation - I respect. That generation struggled for our future, even working long hours at low wages to support the family. In fact, I've heard stories of employers paying more than the minimum wage to workers who were more productive.

Don't make assumption about people's personal attributes based on their views; you'd be surprised.

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #35 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 12:10am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You cannot legally enter into a voluntary agreement with an employer unless that agreement abides by the rules. If you are suggesting that you are prepared to sign away wage rates and conditions, one or both of you will end up being prosecuted.

Correct, and those rules are imposed by Unions who want to KEEP OTHER WORKERS OUT so that the existing workers get better pay and conditions. The Government should allow individuals to enter into voluntary contracts on terms and conditions which BOTH parties agree.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #36 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 5:25am

Auggie wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 12:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You cannot legally enter into a voluntary agreement with an employer unless that agreement abides by the rules. If you are suggesting that you are prepared to sign away wage rates and conditions, one or both of you will end up being prosecuted.

Correct, and those rules are imposed by Unions who want to KEEP OTHER WORKERS OUT so that the existing workers get better pay and conditions. The Government should allow individuals to enter into voluntary contracts on terms and conditions which BOTH parties agree.

No - they are not imposed by Unions - they are imposed by governments. Unions do not have the power to impose anything, only to stand by what is accepted as the proper standards of income and conditions, and to negotiate for any changes.

No government here will allow what you say since to do so would undermine the opportunity to earn of the majority and would thus wreck the economy.

You must be Indian.... Ahovking, is it? Well - it ain't going to happen here, Jackie-Jackie.... no way are you going to be signing up Aussies on contracts of pay and conditions lower than standard.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #37 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 9:17am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 5:25am:

Auggie wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 12:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

You cannot legally enter into a voluntary agreement with an employer unless that agreement abides by the rules. If you are suggesting that you are prepared to sign away wage rates and conditions, one or both of you will end up being prosecuted.

Correct, and those rules are imposed by Unions who want to KEEP OTHER WORKERS OUT so that the existing workers get better pay and conditions. The Government should allow individuals to enter into voluntary contracts on terms and conditions which BOTH parties agree.

No - they are not imposed by Unions - they are imposed by governments. Unions do not have the power to impose anything, only to stand by what is accepted as the proper standards of income and conditions, and to negotiate for any changes.

No government here will allow what you say since to do so would undermine the opportunity to earn of the majority and would thus wreck the economy.

You must be Indian.... Ahovking, is it? Well - it ain't going to happen here, Jackie-Jackie.... no way are you going to be signing up Aussies on contracts of pay and conditions lower than standard.

No government will do it because it's political suicide.

I'll meet you halfway from a practical perspective: I don't think that the commonwealth should impose a uniform standard across the country when conditions vary across the country. What I would like to see is a decentralisation of such laws to the states and even to local councils so that local communities can make those decisions. This allows us to experiment with difference practices to see if they work or not.

So I would first experiment with the abolition of the minimum wage in a local council with money reserved to compensate workers in case of disastrous consequences. Of course doing it on a national scale would have dire consequences.

Do you agree?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 80318 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: For those who support then minimum wage... Reply #38 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 10:53am Do that and you open the door to exploitation and abuse... no can do.
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tickleandrose

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #39 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 10:54am

Re AugCaesarustus:

And here is the issue. You are employed already, and you are looking for a second job to supplement your primary income. If you abolish the minimum wage, then those who are looking for their first job will also be effected. In Australia, minimum wage is required so that people do have the motivation to find work. If say, there is no minimum wage, and even if you work 40 - 50 hrs +, it is not enough to keep the rent or the basic utility for you and your family, then where is the incentive to work? In which case, people mind as well all go onto the welfare program. This will increase tax, and have negative impact on the economy.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #40 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 2:17pm

tickleandrose wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 10:54am:

Re AugCaesarustus:

And here is the issue. You are employed already, and you are looking for a second job to supplement your primary income. If you abolish the minimum wage, then those who are looking for their first job will also be effected. In Australia, minimum wage is required so that people do have the motivation to find work. If say, there is no minimum wage, and even if you work 40 - 50 hrs +, it is not enough to keep the rent or the basic utility for you and your family, then where is the incentive to work? In which case, people mind as well all go onto the welfare program. This will increase tax, and have negative impact on the economy.

An argument for a totally controlled job market with a tier of availability starting at single income family no job, and going up to dual income family already no need for job.

That way the singles could get a fair shot, those with a job can pick up the dregs, those with a good job can do without and dual income families can subsist on their two jobs already.

It seems an uncontrolled jobs market does not work, and is self-defeating in providing a chimera of extra income for some, who then find that sucked up in costs of living and taxes to feed those with no income.

Makes no sense at all.

Nearly twenty years ago a young unemployed man said to me:- "One Man - One Job!" Hasn't gotten any better since.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Steampipe

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #41 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 2:48pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

Excellent, what you do is start a business and only charge $5 an hour.

I will give you a job, I will pay you $5 an hour to clean my house and do ironing. In a normal week you can do 40hrs ironing for me.

Just so you know whats going on I will collect ironing from customers and only charge them $15 an hour then pay you $5 an hour so we both end up gainfully employed.

There are thousands of business people that work for well below the minimum wage. The only trick is you cant employ someone else to work for less than minimum wage but you have nothing to stop you from working for less than minimum wage.

Shut the f*ck up and go offer your services to people washing cars, mowing lawns for $5 an hour.

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #42 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 4:20pm

tickleandrose wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 10:54am:

Re AugCaesarustus:

And here is the issue. You are employed already, and you are looking for a second job to supplement your primary income. If you abolish the minimum wage, then those who are looking for their first job will also be effected. In Australia, minimum wage is required so that people do have the motivation to find work. If say, there is no minimum wage, and even if you work 40 - 50 hrs +, it is not enough to keep the rent or the basic utility for you and your family, then where is the incentive to work? In which case, people mind as well all go onto the welfare program. This will increase tax, and have negative impact on the economy.

No, in actual fact, abolishing the minimum wage will help those finding their first job because at the moment they are priced out of the market. Why would an employer hire an inexperienced person at $17 p/h when they're worth $10 p/h?

Second, you're assuming that everyone on the minimum wage is living alone with a family and struggling. Many who are on the minimum are students, or people who don't rely on it for a living. Sure, there are many families who are on the minimum wage, but they make up a small percentage of the population. There are two questions in this regard: 1) why aren't they relying on family support? 2) why did they have kids in the first place?

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #43 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 4:23pm

Steampipe wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 2:48pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 7:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2017 at 11:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2017 at 9:49pm:

And here we have the proponents for a race to the bottom.

Welcome to third world pay and conditions.

What if choose to have third world pay and conditions?

Move, relocate, depart, take up an offshore position.

I choose not to relocate, depart and take up an offshore position. I want to live in Australia and enter in a voluntary agreement with an employer.

Excellent, what you do is start a business and only charge $5 an hour.

I will give you a job, I will pay you $5 an hour to clean my house and do ironing. In a normal week you can do 40hrs ironing for me.

Just so you know whats going on I will collect ironing from customers and only charge them $15 an hour then pay you $5 an hour so we both end up gainfully employed.

There are thousands of business people that work for well below the minimum wage. The only trick is you cant employ someone else to work for less than minimum wage but you have nothing to stop you from working for less than minimum wage.

Shut the f*ck up and go offer your services to people washing cars, mowing lawns for $5 an hour.

So, what you're saying is that work as an independent contractor? That's a good idea, and was suggested by Crocodile. Only issue is that I would need to purchase insurance, which is expensive.

Would you be willing to indemnify me if I break something or accidently burn your cat?

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Auggie

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Re: For those who support then minimum wage...
Reply #44 - Apr 24^th, 2017 at 4:26pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 24^th, 2017 at 10:53am:

Do that and you open the door to exploitation and abuse... no can do.

Hold on, why? If the majority of people in Australia support the minimum wage, as you claim, then State governments and local councils will be required to fix a minimum wage at the rate the people/union demands?

Answer this question: should a person living in Sydney be paid the same as a person living in Hobart where the cost of living of both cities is significantly different?

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