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Global warming, the science and the consequences (Read 25232 times)
Jovial Monk
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Global warming, the science and the consequences
Apr 20th, 2017 at 6:52am
 
Funny old “Ice Age:”

Quote:
The Greenland Ice Sheet is the second largest ice sheet on Earth and has been losing mass for decades, a trend scientists have linked to a warming climate. However, the mass change experienced by individual coastal glaciers, which flow out from the ice sheet into the ocean, is highly variable. This makes predicting the impact on future sea-level rise difficult.

“We were looking for a way to explain why this variability exists, and we found a way to do it that has never been applied before on this scale,” Felikson said.

Of the 16 glaciers researchers investigated in West Greenland, the study found four that are the most susceptible to thinning: Rink Isbrae, Umiamako Isbrae, Jakobshavn Isbrae and Sermeq Silardleq.

Umiamako Isbrae, Sermeq Silardleq and Jakobshavn Isbrae are already losing mass, with Jakobshavn being responsible for more than 81 percent of West Greenland’s total mass loss over the past 30 years.


Poor Booby thinks Greenland is gaining ice.

Quote:
The analysis works by calculating how far inland thinning that starts at the terminus of each glacier is likely to extend. Glaciers with thinning that reaches far inland are the most susceptible to ice mass loss.

Just how prone a glacier is to thinning depends on its thickness and surface slope, features that are influenced by the landscape under the glacier. In general, thinning spreads more easily across thick and flat glaciers and is hindered by thin and steep portions of glaciers.

The research revealed that most glaciers are susceptible to thinning between 10 and 30 miles inland. For Jakobshavn, however, the risk of thinning reaches over 150 miles inland—almost one-third of the way across the Greenland Ice Sheet.

“Jakobshavn is particularly vulnerable to thinning because it flows through a very deep trough that extends deep into the ice sheet interior, making the ice thick and the surface flat,” Felikson said.


Quote:
Among other sources of data, Felikson and his team used a bedrock topography map created with data from NASA’s Ocean Melting Greenland project to determine the thickness of the ice and a digital elevation model from the Greenland Ice Mapping Project, which uses measurements from the Japanese-provided Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer (ASTER) instrument on NASA’s Terra satellite, to separate glacier catchments.


Ocean Melting Greenland, OMG  Smiley

Quote:
Ginny Catania, an associate professor in the University of Texas Jackson School of Geosciences and research associate at UTIG, said the group has plans to apply the shape analysis technique to other glaciers. “Our plan is to extend the analysis so that we can identify glaciers in Antarctica and around the rest of Greenland that are most likely to be susceptible to change in the future,” she said.


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2576/glacier-shape-influences-susceptibility-to-me...

So the scientists can tell us what is happening, in more and more detail. Up to politicians to use the data. They are just duck shoving it away so far and so is the electorate, electing populists like Trumpy and Turdful. Won’t be able to do that forever tho. Starting now will save big money compared to leaving it until almost too late.

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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #1 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:11am
 
To see how AGW will affect temperature and precipitation where you live you can download the NASA dataset. Look here:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-releases-detailed-global-climate-change-...
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #2 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 10:58am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 6:52am:
We were looking for a way to explain why this variability exists, and we found a way to do it that has never been applied before on this scale,” Felikson said.


A new statistical tool?

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 6:52am:
Of the 16 glaciers researchers investigated in West Greenland, the study found four that are the most susceptible to thinning: Rink Isbrae, Umiamako Isbrae, Jakobshavn Isbrae and Sermeq Silardleq.

Umiamako Isbrae, Sermeq Silardleq and Jakobshavn Isbrae are already losing mass, with Jakobshavn being responsible for more than 81 percent of West Greenland’s total mass loss over the past 30 years.


Poor Booby thinks Greenland is gaining ice.



So it seems three may be losing ice mass. What about the rest? Do you really believe polar ice is static?

[quote author=Jovial_Abbott link=1492635122/0#0 date=1492635122]Ocean Melting Greenland, OMG  /quote]

And no link to AGW. Wink
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« Last Edit: Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:11am by lee »  
 
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #3 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:00am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:11am:
To see how AGW will affect temperature and precipitation where you live you can download the NASA dataset. Look here:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-releases-detailed-global-climate-change-...


"NASA has released data showing how temperature and rainfall patterns worldwide may change through the year 2100 because of growing concentrations of greenhouse gases in Earth’s atmosphere."


You do know, being a scientist, the difference between data and projections? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

BTW- Did you see the difference -

JM - " AGW will affect temperature and precipitation"

NASA -  "temperature and rainfall patterns worldwide may change"

You are several orders of magnitude ahead of NASA. Where do you get your data? Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #4 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 1:36pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:00am:
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:11am:
To see how AGW will affect temperature and precipitation where you live you can download the NASA dataset. Look here:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-releases-detailed-global-climate-change-...


"NASA has released data showing how temperature and rainfall patterns worldwide may change through the year 2100 because of growing concentrations of greenhouse gases in Earth’s atmosphere."


You do know, being a scientist, the difference between data and projections? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

BTW- Did you see the difference -

JM - " AGW will affect temperature and precipitation"

NASA -  "temperature and rainfall patterns worldwide may change"

You are several orders of magnitude ahead of NASA. Where do you get your data? Wink

As a troll for the foreign vested interest that comes from planet accountant you don't even know the difference  Grin
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #5 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 2:57pm
 
Thank you for confirming your idiocy.
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Jovial Monk
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Reply #6 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 3:17pm
 
JUst ignore Liar Lees, DRAH.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #7 - Apr 22nd, 2017 at 11:34am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 3:17pm:
JUst ignore Liar Lees, DRAH.

I protect my children!
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #8 - Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am
 
Quote:
According to Nasa, in 2016 the Earth’s surface temperature shattered the previous record for hottest year by 0.12°C. That record was set in 2015, which broke the previous record by 0.13°C. That record had been set in 2014, beating out 2010, which in turn had broken the previous record set in 2005. . . .

Even including World War II, in the first 100 years of the Nasa data, the high temperature record was broken seven times. It’s been broken seven times in just the past 20 years.


Chicago and most of the midwest of the US and Canada enjoyed 70°F weather in the last NH winter. 70°F! Usually—freezing weather! No matter your beliefs, diehard denier or sensible, 70°C weather in the middle of winter in those regions is a matter for “What the. . .”

I got those temperature details from comments to the ludicrous videos Booby keeps posting and nobody watches. The official record confirms this.

As another post I made shows: warm winter plus warm wet spring means lots of mozzies—and the diseases they bring!

Quote:
This rapid rate of record-breaking heat (once every three years) is consistent with climate scientists’ expectations. A 2011 paper by Stefan Rahmstorf and Dim Coumou found that as global warming continues, we should expect to set new records about once every four years.

Quote:
Indeed, if we only use the data of the past 30 y, these show an almost linear trend of 0.017°C/y, yielding an expected 2.5 new record hot temperatures in the last decade [1 per 4 years].


Rahmstorf told me that so far, the rate of record-setting temperatures is in line with a consistent human-caused global warming trend:

Quote:
There is no statistical evidence for recent acceleration, just as there never was statistical evidence for a “slowdown” in global warming before the recent series of records. It’s all still within the noise (which could well be hiding an acceleration, but we cannot tell yet from these data).


Scientists are cautious in their public utterances. No BS unlike in the videos Booby posts that are chockful of BS and pseudoscience.

Quote:
Global temperature wasn’t the only record-setter in 2016. Global warming causes climate change, and North America saw its highest number of storms and floods in over four decades. Globally, we saw over 1.5 times more extreme weather catastrophes in 2016 than the average over the past 30 years. Global sea ice cover plunged to a record low as well. California endured a fifth consecutive year of its worst drought in over a millennium. A drought also savaged the maize harvest in Southern Africa, causing a famine. The list of climate consequences goes on.


That is to be expected. A longer bushfire season and more and more severe bushfires/wildfires is just one consequence. Add in rising sea levels (rising more and more rapidly as Antarctica gains less and less net mass) and you can see AGW is causing more and more destruction.

Nor is all of 2016 due to El Nino:
...

(Pssst, hey Booby, where is that Ice Age???)

Another Booby, Scott Pruitt:
Quote:
testifying before the Senate on the day the record temperatures were announced in a bid to become EPA administrator, Scott Pruitt claimed that we don’t know how much humans are contributing to global warming. . . .

This is simply wrong. We wouldn’t be setting a new temperature record every three years if not for global warming, and there’s no question that the warming is predominantly human-caused. The latest IPCC report stated with 95% confidence that humans are the main cause of global warming since 1950, and most likely responsible for 100% of that temperature rise.

Every study quantifying the various contributions to global warming has found humans are the dominant cause. Our fingerprints are all over climate change – the changes are precisely in line with what we’d expect to see as a result of an increased greenhouse effect from human carbon pollution. . . .

Climate denial is evolving. All of Trump’s nominees rejected his claims that climate change is a hoax, but all cast doubt on the degree to which humans are contributing, and to the threats it poses. It’s a softer, cuddlier form of climate denial that doesn’t reject all scientific research – just the vast majority – and yields the same end result of obstructing climate solutions.


Lees take note  Cheesy

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/jan/2...
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« Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2017 at 10:07am by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #9 - Apr 23rd, 2017 at 1:28pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
According to Nasa, in 2016 the Earth’s surface temperature shattered the previous record for hottest year by 0.12°C.



With no uncertainty at all? How bizarre. You are a scientist aren't you? And you don't even question that? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Even including World War II, in the first 100 years of the Nasa data, the high temperature record was broken seven times. It’s been broken seven times in just the past 20 years.



Yes. Again with no uncertainty. But don't forget 1997. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Chicago and most of the midwest of the US and Canada enjoyed 70°F weather in the last NH winter. 70°F! Usually—freezing weather! No matter your beliefs, diehard denier or sensible, 70°C weather in the middle of winter in those regions is a matter for “What the. . .”

I got those temperature details from comments to the ludicrous videos Booby keeps posting and nobody watches. The official record confirms this.

As another post I made shows: warm winter plus warm wet spring means lots of mozzies—and the diseases they bring!



You forgot and it has never happened before, Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Quote:
Indeed, if we only use the data of the past 30 y, these show an almost linear trend of 0.017°C/y,



Don't forget is supposed to get worser.

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Rahmstorf told me that so far, the rate of record-setting temperatures is in line with a consistent human-caused global warming trend:


Did he also tell you it is all CO2? WinkJovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Quote:
There is no statistical evidence for recent acceleration, just as there never was statistical evidence for a “slowdown” in global warming before the recent series of records. It’s all still within the noise (which could well be hiding an acceleration, but we cannot tell yet from these data).


But he can still see trends even though they are "within the noise " Grin Grin Grin Grin
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #10 - Apr 23rd, 2017 at 1:42pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
That is to be expected. A longer bushfire season and more and more severe bushfires/wildfires is just one consequence.



Compared to early 20th century warming or just lazy statistics?

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Add in rising sea levels (rising more and more rapidly as Antarctica gains less and less net mass) and you can see AGW is causing more and more destruction.



And all supposition.Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
testifying before the Senate on the day the record temperatures were announced in a bid to become EPA administrator, Scott Pruitt claimed that we don’t know how much humans are contributing to global warming. . . .

This is simply wrong. We wouldn’t be setting a new temperature record every three years if not for global warming, and there’s no question that the warming is predominantly human-caused. The latest IPCC report stated with 95% confidence that humans are the main cause of global warming since 1950, and most likely responsible for 100% of that temperature rise.



Actually, it is true. If you think that wrong please cite the paper where they have calculated CO2 produced naturally, and the changes each year,

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Every study quantifying the various contributions to global warming has found humans are the dominant cause



From SKS I see.

The SKS link to Tel  et al 200 tells us nothing as the link is broken.

Meehl et al 2004 - "Ensemble simulations are run with a global coupled climate model employing five forcing agents that influence the time evolution of globally averaged surface air temperature during the twentieth century. Two are natural (volcanoes and solar) and the others are anthropogenic [e.g., greenhouse gases (GHGs), ozone (stratospheric and tropospheric), and direct effect of sulfate aerosols]"

So only two are natural. No clouds, No plants. hardly convincing. And the ever present models, Wink Was it Heidi or Helga. Maybe Bruce.

I am too lazy to look at the rest.

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
Lees take note


I did better, I went to your SKS site.

I will let you review the other papers.  Wink
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lee
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Reply #11 - Apr 23rd, 2017 at 7:41pm
 
Hey JM, Why haven't you defended Meehl et al? ALL GHG's are Anthropogenic aren't they? Wink
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Reply #12 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 9:55am
 
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Jovial Monk
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Reply #13 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:04am
 
That is crap, Ajax.

The Arctic is warming and the sea ice there is shrinking. This NH winter it was even shrinking in winter!

The globe is warming and it is because of the greenhouse gases we emit.

At least you haven’t totally fruitloop unlike Sir Booby de Louse but PLEASE give up on this denialism!

This is from the NASA website:

Quote:
Arctic Sea Ice Minimum


Arctic sea ice reaches its minimum each September. September Arctic sea ice is now declining at a rate of 13.3 percent per decade, relative to the 1981 to 2010 average. This graph shows the average monthly Arctic sea ice extent in September since 1979, derived from satellite observations.


https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/

You will need to go to the above page to see the graphs etc.
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Ajax
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Reply #14 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:06am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:04am:
That is crap, Ajax.

The Arctic is warming and the sea ice there is shrinking. This NH winter it was even shrinking in winter!

The globe is warming and it is because of the greenhouse gases we emit.

At least you haven’t totally fruitloop unlike Sir Booby de Louse but PLEASE give up on this denialism!



As the article says JV it seems the warmists have made the 1979 ice cover "THE" standard one after 30 years of global cooling.

As NASA shows it did retreat in the last decade by about 10%, but who's to say this isn't normal.....???


...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-...

September 1957 - arctic decreases by 40%

...

May 1947 - arctic melting

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22429983?searchTerm=climate%20change&sea...

November 1922 - arctic melting

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf

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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:11am by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Jovial Monk
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Reply #15 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:08am
 
Even that graph shows the ice extent is shrinking!
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Ajax
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Reply #16 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:13am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:08am:
Even that graph shows the ice extent is shrinking!


I said that they have shown that in the last decade it has shrunk by 10% but who's to say this isn't normal.

September 1957 - arctic decreases by 40%

......

May 1947 - arctic melting

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22429983?searchTerm=climate%20change&sea...

November 1922 - arctic melting

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf

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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:28am by Ajax »  

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Reply #17 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am
 
It is melting. Good, at least you agree.

It has melted further than in the past and shows no sign of slowing.

Temperatures are increasing and they are increasing due to greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide and methane.

1°C of heating but the heating has gone on past the 1°C.

Sea level rises, due to the warming of the oceans and the massive ice loss from Greenland will accelerate once Antarctica starts losing ice too: it is gaining mass ATM but at slower and slower rates.
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Reply #18 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:41am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
It is melting. Good, at least you agree.

It has melted further than in the past and shows no sign of slowing.

Temperatures are increasing and they are increasing due to greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide and methane.

1°C of heating but the heating has gone on past the 1°C.

Sea level rises, due to the warming of the oceans and the massive ice loss from Greenland will accelerate once Antarctica starts losing ice too: it is gaining mass ATM but at slower and slower rates.



For a gas like CO2 or methane (CH4) to have any significant effect on the atmosphere it must total at least 1% of the atmospheric volume.

CO2 is at the moment        0.04%.......400ppm

CH4 is at the moment 0.000183%.......1.834ppm

Water Vapour...................4%............40,000ppm

Water vapour accounts for 95% of the greenhouse house effect here on Earth.

BTW 1% = 10,000ppm     (ppm = parts per million)
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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:10am by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Reply #19 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:40am
 
Ajax wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:41am:
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
It is melting. Good, at least you agree.

It has melted further than in the past and shows no sign of slowing.

Temperatures are increasing and they are increasing due to greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide and methane.

1°C of heating but the heating has gone on past the 1°C.

Sea level rises, due to the warming of the oceans and the massive ice loss from Greenland will accelerate once Antarctica starts losing ice too: it is gaining mass ATM but at slower and slower rates.



For a gas like CO2 or methane (CH4) to have any significant effect on the atmosphere it must total at least 1% of the atmospheric volume.

CO2 is at the moment        0.04%.......400ppm

CH4 is at the moment 0.000183%.......1.834ppm

Water Vapour...................4%............40,000ppm

Water vapour accounts for 95% of the greenhouse house effect here on Earth.

BTW 1% = 10,000ppm     (ppm = parts per million)

* source?????


THANKS BUDDY  Roll Eyes
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Reply #20 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:41am
 
Water Vapour IS THE FEEDBACK MECHANISM  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes: we don't drill for water to pump it into the atmosphere  Shocked
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Reply #21 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:45am
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:40am:
* source?????


THANKS BUDDY  Roll Eyes


....................... Cheesy

.........

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Global Deception: The Exaggeration of the Global Warming Threat

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Reference_Docs/PMichaels_Jun98.pdf
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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2017 at 3:24pm by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Reply #22 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:47am
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:41am:
Water Vapour IS THE FEEDBACK MECHANISM  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes: we don't drill for water to pump it into the atmosphere  Shocked


Water vapour accounts for 95% of the greenhouse gas effect we have here on Earth.

It's that invisible stuff that makes a 25°C day seem like a 40°C when there's lots of it in the air........... Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #23 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 1:51pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:04am:
The Arctic is warming and the sea ice there is shrinking. This NH winter it was even shrinking in winter!

...

You shouldn't just rely on the satellite data. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:04am:
The globe is warming and it is because of the greenhouse gases we emit.



Nice supposition. According to Meehl et al 2004 GHG's are anthropogenic. No natural emissions at all.

That would mean termites (CH4) are human, water vapour is human, plants are human. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:04am:
Quote:
Arctic Sea Ice Minimum


Arctic sea ice reaches its minimum each September. September Arctic sea ice is now declining at a rate of 13.3 percent per decade, relative to the 1981 to 2010 average. This graph shows the average monthly Arctic sea ice extent in September since 1979, derived from satellite observations.


So only relative to 1981 -2010. And only satellite observations. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #24 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 1:58pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
It has melted further than in the past and shows no sign of slowing.



Only if you limit to the satellite era.

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
Temperatures are increasing and they are increasing due to greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide and methane.



You still haven't posted the peer-review paper that proves your assertion.

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
ea level rises, due to the warming of the oceans and the massive ice loss from Greenland



Pleas show the paper that shows Greenland NET ice loss.

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 10:26am:
will accelerate once Antarctica starts losing ice too: it is gaining mass ATM but at slower and slower rates.



Good to see you acknowledge that the Antarctic is not losing ice. The rest about it eventually losing ice is mere conjecture. Did you approach Madam Zara for the prediction?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #25 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 3:58pm
 
Ajax wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:47am:
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:41am:
Water Vapour IS THE FEEDBACK MECHANISM  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes: we don't drill for water to pump it into the atmosphere  Shocked


Water vapour accounts for 95% of the greenhouse gas effect we have here on Earth.

It's that invisible stuff that makes a 25°C day seem like a 40°C when there's lots of it in the air........... Wink

The warming from the CO2 sees more water vapor in the atmosphere, increasing the GHG effect. Water eventually condenses which is why it is classed as a AGW reinforcing not a primary GHG.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #26 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:01pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 3:58pm:
The warming from the CO2 sees more water vapor in the atmosphere, increasing the GHG effect.


Proof?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #27 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:02pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 3:58pm:
Ajax wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:47am:
TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 11:41am:
Water Vapour IS THE FEEDBACK MECHANISM  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes: we don't drill for water to pump it into the atmosphere  Shocked


Water vapour accounts for 95% of the greenhouse gas effect we have here on Earth.

It's that invisible stuff that makes a 25°C day seem like a 40°C when there's lots of it in the air........... Wink

The warming from the CO2 sees more water vapor in the atmosphere, increasing the GHG effect. Water eventually condenses which is why it is classed as a AGW reinforcing not a primary GHG.


To a certain point "YES" I agree with you...... Wink

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1493003769
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #28 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:09pm
 
Yes but no but the CO2 is increasing exponentially.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #29 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:13pm
 
JM, From one of your favourite sources -

"Some questions remain. When temperatures get too high, there’s no continued increase in intense rain events. In fact, heavy precipitation events decrease at the highest temperatures. There are some clear reasons for this but for brevity, regardless of where measurements are made on Earth, there appears to be an increase of precipitation with temperature up until a peak and thereafter, more warming coincides with decreased precipitation. "

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/mar/2...

Bloody cluey stuff this water vapour. It only lie Goldilocks temperatures to precipitate out. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #30 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:15pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:09pm:
Yes but no but the CO2 is increasing exponentially.


And the temperature? What effect does increasing CO2 have on temperature? Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #31 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:15pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:09pm:
Yes but no but the CO2 is increasing exponentially.


Temperature drives the increase of natural CO2 from its natural resources into our atmosphere, CO2 doesn't drive its own rate of increase.

So your assumption is wrong as has been observed over the years.
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Reply #32 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:34pm
 
Burning fossil fuels increases the CO2 in the atmosphere.

The warming is melting the tundra and huge frozen deposits of methane are melting and methane is escaping into the atmosphere. Methane is also escaping where greedy idiots are fracking.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #33 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:53pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:34pm:
The warming is melting the tundra



Really? To what depth?

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:34pm:
and huge frozen deposits of methane are melting and methane is escaping into the atmosphere. Methane is also escaping where greedy idiots are fracking.



You forgot the termites. Wink

"Methane emissions, which have decreased by 16.0percent since 1990, resulted primarily from enteric fermentation associated with domestic livestock, natural gas systems, and
decomposition of wastes in landfills."

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-02/documents/2017_complete_repor...

And that is DESPITE fracking. The US is where the bulk of fracking occurs. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #34 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:53pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 4:34pm:
Burning fossil fuels increases the CO2 in the atmosphere.

The warming is melting the tundra and huge frozen deposits of methane are melting and methane is escaping into the atmosphere. Methane is also escaping where greedy idiots are fracking.


Notice the sharp rise in fossil fuel CO2 emissions after 2000.

After 2000 fossil fuel emissions were 3 times the amount of fossil fuel emissions in the prior decade to 2000, that is 3 times as much fossil fuel emission went into our atmosphere after 2000 than the decade before 2000.

But the average yearly increase after 2000 just like the decade prior to 2000, average increase in CO2 remains more or less steady at 2.1ppm per year.

Fossil fuel CO2 emissions at 2.3% of the total CO2 natural emissions are insignificant and get lost in the noise.

That's why the average yearly increase of CO2 has remained steady at 2.1ppm per year even though fossil fuel emissions have shot through the roof.

Again your argument is shot down.

Yes fossil fuels emissions contribute but the contribution is small at 2.3% of the total amount of natural CO2 that is emitted.

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZqWMEpyUM
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Reply #35 - Apr 24th, 2017 at 8:08pm
 
Hm of the extra CO2 is dissolved in the oceans?

NOAA:

...
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Reply #36 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 6:07am
 
...

Quote:
Global carbon emissions from fossil fuels have significantly increased since 1900. Since 1970, CO2 emissions have increased by about 90%, with emissions from fossil fuel combustion and industrial processes contributing about 78% of the total greenhouse gas emissions increase from 1970 to 2011. Agriculture, deforestation, and other land-use changes have been the second-largest contributors.[1]

Emissions of non-CO2 greenhouse gases have also increased significantly since 1900. To learn more about past and projected global emissions of non-CO2 gases, please see the EPA report, Global Anthropogenic Non-CO2 Greenhouse Gas Emissions: 1990-2020.


https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data

Ajax, the globe is still warming despite the sun being quiescent since 1980. Solar maximum was in the 1950s.

Glaciers are retreating, polar sea ice extent is shrinking and Greenland is losing huge amounts of ice. The very simplest thing to do is accept the theory of AGW. That theory is confirmed by terrestrial and satellite spectroscopy. GHGs do absorb infrared photons (rays if you like) causing the globe to warm.
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Reply #37 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 8:46am
 
September 1957 - arctic decreases by 40%


...

May 1947 - arctic melting


...

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22429983?searchTerm=climate%20change&s...

November 1922 - arctic melting


...
...

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #38 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 9:22am
 
Hey JV

These same nut jobs were heralding global cooling and an ice age in the early 1970's.

They would even slay democracy to save us all from global cooling and the coming ice age....LOL.

...

http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/02/the-1970s-global-cooling-alarmism.html

...
...
...
...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jjgiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9KsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1371,235...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #39 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 9:30am
 
The 1970's media scare.

Hey JV

I bet you would have believed this malarkey too....?!?!

...


For more newspaper artciles on global COOLING in the 1970's go to this site and scroll down.

http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/02/the-1970s-global-cooling-alarmism.html
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #40 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 9:39am
 
Like the sheeple of today that have been fooled into believing the pseudo science that is AGW.

Poor Spock also believed in the propaganda of the 1970's about the coming ice age.

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Reply #41 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 10:08am
 
Last one JV

Monday 11th September 1972


...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MnMQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=R4sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2204,118...


Is that the same H. Lamb that worked for the IPCC....??

Well at least he was an honest fellow, unlike Michael Mann and his fraudulent hockey SHHHHTick....... Kiss

...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #42 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 4:58pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 24th, 2017 at 8:08pm:
Hm of the extra CO2 is dissolved in the oceans?


Shouldn't that be how much CO2 is outgassed by the oceans?

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Reply #43 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 6:11pm
 
Ajax and his voodoo charms  Smiley Smiley
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #44 - Apr 25th, 2017 at 7:12pm
 
"Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences"

Why are you not talking science?

Tell us about Meehle et al 2014 and their claims that GHG's are anthropogenic.

Tell us the science.
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Reply #45 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 11:50am
 
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......Australia has an illegitimate Government!
 
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Reply #46 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 12:46pm
 
"Carbon 14 is formed in the atmosphere by collisions between cosmic rays and Nitrogen.  It has a very short half life (5,730 years)"

...

Oh, tree rings - never mind.

"More recent, high precision measurements show the decline in C14 continued after the end of atmospheric nuclear testing."

Actually it shows C14 increasing since nuclear testing.

...

So how do they determine that Natural CO2 is net negative.

You remember greening of the planet?

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Reply #47 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 1:32pm
 
Seriously  Grin
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Reply #48 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 1:37pm
 
Now who is relying on SKS?  Wink
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Reply #49 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 2:12pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 26th, 2017 at 1:37pm:
Now who is relying on SKS?  Wink


If you really had a clue you would see it was DRAH.

TheFunPolice wrote on Apr 26th, 2017 at 11:50am:
https://skepticalscience.com/anthrocarbon-brief.html
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Reply #50 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 2:16pm
 
https://skepticalscience.com/pics/CO2massbalance.jpg

...
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Reply #51 - Apr 26th, 2017 at 2:33pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 26th, 2017 at 2:16pm:
https://skepticalscience.com/pics/CO2massbalance.jpg

https://skepticalscience.com/pics/CO2massbalance.jpg


Yep certainly hilarious. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #52 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 3:42pm
 
Quote:
Climate Change 2007: Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis
Contents99.7
9.7 Combining Evidence of Anthropogenic Climate Change <>
The widespread change detected in temperature observations of the surface (Sections 9.4.1, 9.4.2, 9.4.3), free atmosphere (Section 9.4.4) and ocean (Section 9.5.1), together with consistent evidence of change in other parts of the climate system (Section 9.5), strengthens the conclusion that greenhouse gas forcing is the dominant cause of warming during the past several decades. This combined evidence, which is summarised in Table 9.4, is substantially stronger than the evidence that is available from observed changes in global surface temperature alone (Figure 3.6).

The evidence from surface temperature observations is strong: The observed warming is highly significant relative to estimates of internal climate variability which, while obtained from models, are consistent with estimates obtained from both instrumental data and palaeoclimate reconstructions. It is extremely unlikely (<5%) that recent global warming is due to internal variability alone such as might arise from El Niño (Section 9.4.1). The widespread nature of the warming (Figures 3.9 and 9.6) reduces the possibility that the warming could have resulted from internal variability. No known mode of internal variability leads to such widespread, near universal warming as has been observed in the past few decades. Although modes of internal variability such as El Niño can lead to global average warming for limited periods of time, such warming is regionally variable, with some areas of cooling (Figures 3.27 and 3.28). In addition, palaeoclimatic evidence indicates that El Niño variability during the 20th century is not unusual relative to earlier periods (Section 9.3.3.2; Chapter 6). Palaeoclimatic evidence suggests that such a widespread warming has not been observed in the NH in at least the past 1.3 kyr (Osborn and Briffa, 2006), further strengthening the evidence that the recent warming is not due to natural internal variability. Moreover, the response to anthropogenic forcing is detectable on all continents individually except Antarctica, and in some sub-continental regions. Climate models only reproduce the observed 20th-century global mean surface warming when both anthropogenic and natural forcings are included (Figure 9.5). No model that has used natural forcing only has reproduced the observed global mean warming trend or the continental mean warming trends in all individual continents (except Antarctica) over the second half of the 20th century. Detection and attribution of external influences on 20th-century and palaeoclimatic reconstructions, from both natural and anthropogenic sources (Figure 9.4 and Table 9.4), further strengthens the conclusion that the observed changes are very unusual relative to internal climate variability.

The energy content change associated with the observed widespread warming of the atmosphere is small relative to the energy content change of the ocean, and also smaller than that associated with other components such as the cryosphere. In addition, the solid Earth also shows evidence for warming in boreholes (Huang et al., 2000; Beltrami et al., 2002; Pollack and Smerdon, 2004). It is theoretically feasible that the warming of the near surface could have occurred due to a reduction in the heat content of another component of the system. However, all parts of the cryosphere (glaciers, small ice caps, ice sheets and sea ice) have decreased in extent over the past half century, consistent with anthropogenic forcing (Section 9.5.5, Table 9.4), implying that the cryosphere consumed heat and thus indicating that it could not have provided heat for atmospheric warming. More importantly, the heat content of the ocean (the largest reservoir of heat in the climate system) also increased, much more substantially than that of the other components of the climate system (Figure 5.4; Hansen et al., 2005; Levitus et al., 2005). The warming of the upper ocean during the latter half of the 20th century was likely due to anthropogenic forcing (Barnett et al., 2005; Section 9.5.1.1; Table 9.4). While the statistical evidence in this research is very strong that the warming cannot be explained by ocean internal variability as estimated by two different climate models, uncertainty arises since there are discrepancies between estimates of ocean heat content variability from models and observations, although poor sampling of parts of the World Ocean may explain this discrepancy. However, the spatial pattern of ocean warming with depth is very consistent with heating of the ocean resulting from net positive radiative forcing, since the warming proceeds downwards from the upper layers of the ocean and there is deeper penetration of heat at middle to high latitudes and shallower penetration at low latitudes (Barnett et al., 2005; Hansen et al., 2005). This observed ocean warming pattern is inconsistent with a redistribution of heat between the surface and the deep ocean.


Cont’d
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Reply #53 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 3:46pm
 
Quote:
Thus, the evidence appears to be inconsistent with the ocean or land being the source of the warming at the surface. In addition, simulations forced with observed SST changes cannot fully explain the warming in the troposphere without increases in greenhouse gases (e.g., Sexton et al., 2001), further strengthening the evidence that the warming does not originate from the ocean. Further evidence for forced changes arises from widespread melting of the cryosphere (Section 9.5.5), increases in water vapour in the atmosphere (Section 9.5.4.1) and changes in top-of-the atmosphere radiation that are consistent with changes in forcing.

The simultaneous increase in energy content of all the major components of the climate system and the pattern and amplitude of warming in the different components, together with evidence that the second half of the 20th century was likely the warmest in 1.3 kyr (Chapter 6) indicate that the cause of the warming is extremely unlikely to be the result of internal processes alone. The consistency across different lines of evidence makes a strong case for a significant human influence on observed warming at the surface. The observed rates of surface temperature and ocean heat content change are consistent with the understanding of the likely range of climate sensitivity and net climate forcings. Only with a net positive forcing, consistent with observational and model estimates of the likely net forcing of the climate system (as used in Figure 9.5), is it possible to explain the large increase in heat content of the climate system that has been observed (Figure 5.4).


https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-7.html

Have a read of the whole chapter including the tables and figures.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #54 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 4:31pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 30th, 2017 at 3:42pm:
The observed warming is highly significant relative to estimates of internal climate variability which, while obtained from models, are consistent with estimates obtained from both instrumental data and palaeoclimate reconstructions.


But the paleoclimate reconstructions don't have the small scale variations necessary for certainty. How do you determine a period of say 50-100 years from climate proxies that are measured in millions of years.

Apart from which you disbelieve the hiatus described in Box 9.2.

Seems you are cherry picking what you want to believe. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #55 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 4:33pm
 
What hiatus?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #56 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 4:43pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 30th, 2017 at 4:33pm:
What hiatus?


Yep Exactly. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #57 - Apr 30th, 2017 at 4:50pm
 
So you don’t know what hiatus you are talking about?
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Reply #58 - May 1st, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
Something about land clearance and the useless Emissions Reductions Fund.

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2017/04/29/land-clearing-and-c...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #59 - May 1st, 2017 at 10:37pm
 
Global warming and the sun:

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php
Quote:
Scientists theorize that there may be a multi-decadal trend in solar output, though if one exists, it has not been observed as yet. Even if the Sun were getting brighter, however, the pattern of warming observed on Earth since 1950 does not match the type of warming the Sun alone would cause. When the Sun’s energy is at its peak (solar maxima), temperatures in both the lower atmosphere (troposphere) and the upper atmosphere (stratosphere) become warmer. Instead, observations show the pattern expected from greenhouse gas effects: Earth’s surface and troposphere have warmed, but the stratosphere has cooled.


So, not the sun but GHGs are causing the warming.
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Reply #60 - May 2nd, 2017 at 11:49am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 10:37pm:
Instead, observations show the pattern expected from greenhouse gas effects: Earth’s surface and troposphere have warmed, but the stratosphere has cooled.



Except for the trpospheric hotspot, which is a pillar that supports AGW theory.

According to the theory the tropospheric hotspot should rise at 2-3 times that of the surface. Instead, using new and imaginative techniques, they have found some warming.

"Atmospheric changes through 2012 as shown by iteratively homogenized radiosonde temperature and wind data (IUKv2)"

" An attempt to reconstruct tropical warming profiles indirectly from changes in wind also found a maximum in the tropical upper troposphere since the 1970s (Allen and Sherwood 2008). Thus the picture from radiosondes remains somewhat unclear, although there are signs that improved records are showing warming close to expectations."

"These data have been interpreted as indicating too little warming trend in the upper compared to the lower troposphere (Fu et al 2011, Po-Chedley and Fu 2012) and one satellite product shows less warming in the atmosphere than at the surface (Christy et al 2010). Caution is warranted however because the satellites suffer from uncertain changes over time in calibration and other inhomogeneities, exacerbated by the manipulations of the data necessary to extract the signals of concern here (CCSP 2006)."

"Recent findings suggest that overall global warming rates in the troposphere have been too weak in some previous studies due to characterization of the diurnal cycle and imprecise corrections for calibration errors (Po-Chedley et al 2015). "

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/5/054007/meta;jsessionid=...

All that uncertainty about inhomogeneities, but they they can homogenise it all out? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #61 - May 5th, 2017 at 6:54pm
 
Greenland melt May 2017:

...

Very early indications then of a record melt.

https://nsidc.org/greenland-today/

Seems the South and East are melting first.
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Reply #62 - May 5th, 2017 at 9:12pm
 
Wow. hat looks like it is  in the interdecile range.

I wonder why it varies from DMI so much?

...

https://www.dmi.dk/en/groenland/maalinger/greenland-ice-sheet-surface-mass-budge...
Still above the 1981 - 2010 mean. Wink
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Reply #63 - May 5th, 2017 at 9:16pm
 
...

https://nsidc.org/greenland-today/

That sure looks scary. NOT.
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Reply #64 - May 7th, 2017 at 8:32pm
 
There has been talk and 400+ stupid videos that we are in a long interglacial with an ice age due any day (millennium.) That may not be so.

Quote:
A medley of forces influences the glacial-interglacial cycle, including the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth, which is controlled mainly by Earth’s orbital shape and axial tilt, the composition of gasses and aerosols and extent of cloud cover in the atmosphere, and the reflectivity of Earth’s surface (for example, the extent of ice and vegetation cover at high latitudes). A reduction in incoming summer solar radiation would be the primary trigger for glaciation, but atmospheric CO2 concentrations—the primary driver of climate change—must be relatively low, too.

How low is “relatively low”? Tzedakis and colleagues compared ice and marine records from previous interglacials and found that, given the current small decrease in summer solar radiation, CO2 concentrations would have to fall to around 240 ppm for the next glacial period to take place.


Sunspots not mentioned  Grin

Quote:
A medley of forces influences the glacial-interglacial cycle, including the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth, which is controlled mainly by Earth’s orbital shape and axial tilt, the composition of gasses and aerosols and extent of cloud cover in the atmosphere, and the reflectivity of Earth’s surface (for example, the extent of ice and vegetation cover at high latitudes). A reduction in incoming summer solar radiation would be the primary trigger for glaciation, but atmospheric CO2 concentrations—the primary driver of climate change—must be relatively low, too.

How low is “relatively low”? Tzedakis and colleagues compared ice and marine records from previous interglacials and found that, given the current small decrease in summer solar radiation, CO2 concentrations would have to fall to around 240 ppm for the next glacial period to take place.


CO2 concentrations are now at 410ppm (depending on season—the carbon cycle.) FAR above 240ppm:

Quote:
Since the Industrial Revolution, however, atmospheric CO2 levels have been trending higher and higher. They reached an estimated 395.09 ppm globally in January 2013. So, if business proceeds as usual, with carbon release being driven primarily by fossil-fuel burning, we likely have a long thaw ahead of us. Modeling work by geophysical scientist David Archer has shown, for instance, that burning all potential fossil carbon on Earth—5,000 gigatons—would be enough to delay the next glaciation by 500,000 years.


Hopefully we, mankind, do not end up burning all the fossil fuels! Interesting that they mention 240ppm when what is assumed to be “preindustrial” levels (1800–1830 or so) are 280ppm. Could be just due to increasing human population before the industrial age?

Quote:
The real question, then, might have more to do with the next “age,” generally, that we face, rather than the next ice age. Some scientists consider the current era to be defined by human influence, what Dutch chemist Paul J. Crutzen dubbed the Anthropocene Epoch, which has its origins in the Industrial Age.




http://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/will-there-be-another-ice-age/

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #65 - May 7th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 7th, 2017 at 8:32pm:
Quote:
The real question, then, might have more to do with the next “age,” generally, that we face, rather than the next ice age. Some scientists consider the current era to be defined by human influence, what Dutch chemist Paul J. Crutzen dubbed the Anthropocene Epochrl][/u, which has its origins in the Industrial Age.




And he is supposed to be right?
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Reply #66 - May 7th, 2017 at 9:34pm
 
This interglacial will be last for 20–30,000 years yet.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #67 - May 7th, 2017 at 10:15pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 7th, 2017 at 9:34pm:
This interglacial will be last for 20–30,000 years yet.



Got a peer-reviewed paper for that? or is it one of your beliefs.
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Reply #68 - May 7th, 2017 at 10:27pm
 
Google is your friend.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #69 - May 7th, 2017 at 10:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 7th, 2017 at 10:27pm:
Google is your friend.


Your famous quote for when you make sch!itt up.
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Reply #70 - May 7th, 2017 at 10:43pm
 
See, you are hopeless when thrown on your own resources. Clueless.
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Reply #71 - May 8th, 2017 at 4:46pm
 
As I have pointed out many times, AGW means warmer temperatures which means more evaporation which means, eventually more precipitation. Here is one example:

Quote:
Devastating storms still roiling much of the American Midwest have dumped record levels of rain over the past week and caused flash flooding that has killed at least 10 people, inundated towns and highways, and forced hundreds of people to evacuate their homes. Parts of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Arkansas and Louisiana received 10 to 15 inches of rain in the past seven days, according to the National Weather Service, resulting in record crests of numerous rivers across the central United States.

Extreme storms like these have become more common as global temperatures have risen and the oceans have warmed. Some have the clear fingerprints of man-made climate change.

"Of course there is a climate change connection, because the oceans and sea surface temperatures are higher now because of climate change, and in general that adds 5 to 10 percent to the precipitation," Kevin Trenberth, a climate scientist with the National Center for Atmospheric Research, said. "There have been many so-called 500-year floods along the Mississippi about every five to 10 years since 1993."   


https://insideclimatenews.org/news/03052017/flooding-storms-climate-change-extre...

Adds 5 to 10% to precipitation. Hmmm.

Of course, you can believe it is “cosmic gamma rays” but this has been long discredited.

The article goes on:
Quote:
Scientists won't know the extent to which climate change played a role in these storms unless they do an attribution study. Such analyses determine how much the rise in trapped greenhouse gases increased the odds of a single event happening. Increasingly, scientists have tried to do these studies far more quickly to spread accurate information about how climate change is affecting us today and improve longer-term forecasts and warnings.

An attribution study of last August's deadly Louisiana's storms—classified as a 1,000-year storm in the worst-hit areas and a 500-year storm in others—found that human-caused climate warming increased the chances of the torrential rains by at least 40 percent.

That figure corresponds to the overall increase in extreme storms in the region.

"Across the board, the United States has seen an increase in the heaviest rainfall events, and the Midwest specifically has seen an increase [in these events] of almost 40 percent," said Heidi Cullen, chief scientist at Climate Central and a member of World Weather Attribution (WWA), a group that is developing methods to quickly determine climate change's role in extreme weather events.

Like last summer's downpours in Louisiana, however, the ongoing storms across much of the central U.S. are moving slowly, a characteristic that has not been directly attributed to climate change and has likely exacerbated current flooding.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #72 - May 8th, 2017 at 5:14pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 8th, 2017 at 4:46pm:
"Of course there is a climate change connection, because the oceans and sea surface temperatures are higher now because of climate change, and in general that adds 5 to 10 percent to the precipitation," Kevin Trenberth, a climate scientist with the National Center for Atmospheric Research, said. "There have been many so-called 500-year floods along the Mississippi about every five to 10 years since 1993."   



Oh. Kevin Trenberth? Grin Grin Grin Grin

"On average, total annual precipitation has increased over land areas in the United States and worldwide (see Figures 1 and 2). Since 1901, global precipitation has increased at an average rate of 0.08 inches per decade, while precipitation in the contiguous 48 states has increased at a rate of 0.17 inches per decade."

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-us-and-global-p...

So .17 of an inch in a decade? 4.2mm a decade? Wow.
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Reply #73 - May 8th, 2017 at 7:36pm
 
A consequence of a warming world, more bush/wild fires and a longer wild/bushfire season: the BoM confirmed this in their State of the Climate report. Here is one case, in spring in the US:

Quote:
A wildfire that has burned more than 100,000 acres (40,469 hectares) at the Okefenokee National Wildlife Refuge in southern Georgia could take until November before it is put out, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said on Monday.

The fire has burned about one-fourth of the wildlife refuge, and the blaze is considered only eight-percent contained, said Mark Davis, spokesman for the service.

"November is the worst-case scenario," said Davis. "The firefighters' plan is to contain the fire as best they can, hoping that nature will cooperate with some rainfall."


. . .


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-georgia-fire-idUSKBN17X2H2
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Reply #74 - May 8th, 2017 at 8:24pm
 
Sea level rise threatening historic sites, even telephone poles in Tasmania:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/climate/tasmania-global-warming-shoreline-ero...

Need I point out that if we were in a real ice age, not the BIIA, sea levels would be dropping not rising?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #75 - May 8th, 2017 at 11:19pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 8th, 2017 at 7:36pm:
A consequence of a warming world, more bush/wild fires and a longer wild/bushfire season: the BoM confirmed this in their State of the Climate report. Here is one case, in spring in the US:

Quote:
A wildfire that has burned more than 100,000 acres (40,469 hectares) at the Okefenokee National Wildlife Refuge in southern Georgia could take until November before it is put out, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said on Monday.

The fire has burned about one-fourth of the wildlife refuge, and the blaze is considered only eight-percent contained, said Mark Davis, spokesman for the service.

"November is the worst-case scenario," said Davis. "The firefighters' plan is to contain the fire as best they can, hoping that nature will cooperate with some rainfall."


1. The BoM only reported from 1979 to 1990 odd. It didn't address all the data available. They didn't say the bushfire seasons are worse than they have ever been.

2. The fire in the USA; is it the worst or have there been others worse?

. . .


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-georgia-fire-idUSKBN17X2H2

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Reply #76 - May 8th, 2017 at 11:48pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 8th, 2017 at 8:24pm:
Sea level rise threatening historic sites, even telephone poles in Tasmania:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/climate/tasmania-global-warming-shoreline-ero...



So a New York Times article on erosion in Tasmania. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Sea level trend Spring Bay - Triabunna, Tas.

...
Sea level was higher in about 1994-5? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #77 - May 9th, 2017 at 7:57am
 
More wildfires:

Quote:
Increased risk of drought-related wildfires at the heart of the Amazon rainforest adds to vulnerability caused by deforestation at the periphery.

LONDON, 6 May, 2017 – The Amazon rainforest, the greatest and richest of the world’s tropical forests, is vulnerable both from without and within, according to two new studies.

The forested regions in the flood plains at the heart of the Amazon could be more than usually at risk of wildfire that could spread through the rest of the canopy to higher ground. . . .

An international team of researchers reports in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that they matched satellite and field data for the entire Amazon basin, compared forest resilience in those places that were often flooded and never flooded, and analysed the distribution of trees across the river basin.

Rainforest cycles

They found that fire-related savanna dominated the flooded parts when rainfall dropped below 1,500 mm a year. In the upland regions, the forest survived even when rainfall dropped to 1,000 mm a year.

“Our findings suggest that if the Amazonian climate becomes drier, forests will probably collapse first in the seasonally inundated areas,” says Bernardo Flores, a Brazilian scientist now based at Wageningen University in the Netherlands, who led the study.

The great rainforest is subject to cycles of drought, and during severe episodes the region is less likely to absorb carbon from the atmosphere and more likely to release it − a process that could only accelerate global warming. And this in turn could only bring further hazard to the rainforest.

It was ravaged by fire after the droughts of 1997 and 2005, and the impact on tree cover and soil fertility was, unexpectedly, more persistent in the floodplains. . . .

Scientists from the University of Maryland in the US looked at data from 2000 to 2013 for the whole vast area of the Legal Amazon Region, an administrative entity that embraces 5 million square kilometres of nine states in Brazil, and is home to 24 million people.

They found that although humans were still invading and clearing primary forest, they were disturbing an even greater area of secondary forest, plantation and woodland.

Altogether, this clearing of regenerated forest and plantation accounted for 53% of gross tree cover loss, the researchers say, and up to 35% of the above-ground carbon released to the atmosphere.

Fire cleared about 9% of the primary forest, with the damage peaking during the droughts of 2005, 2007 and 2010. – Climate News Network


http://climatenewsnetwork.net/amazon-rainforest-double-jeopardy/

Wildfires becoming more frequent and more unmanageable with AGW and the wildfires in turn add to the CO2 in the air and so increase AGW.

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Reply #78 - May 9th, 2017 at 9:16am
 
lee wrote on May 8th, 2017 at 11:19pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on May 8th, 2017 at 7:36pm:
A consequence of a warming world, more bush/wild fires and a longer wild/bushfire season: the BoM confirmed this in their State of the Climate report. Here is one case, in spring in the US:

Quote:
A wildfire that has burned more than 100,000 acres (40,469 hectares) at the Okefenokee National Wildlife Refuge in southern Georgia could take until November before it is put out, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said on Monday.

The fire has burned about one-fourth of the wildlife refuge, and the blaze is considered only eight-percent contained, said Mark Davis, spokesman for the service.

"November is the worst-case scenario," said Davis. "The firefighters' plan is to contain the fire as best they can, hoping that nature will cooperate with some rainfall."


1. The BoM only reported from 1979 to 1990 odd. It didn't address all the data available. They didn't say the bushfire seasons are worse than they have ever been.

2. The fire in the USA; is it the worst or have there been others worse?

. . .


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-georgia-fire-idUSKBN17X2H2



You stuffed that reply up.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

The BoM said that since 1970 the bushfire season had become longer. You are reading things into that that are not there. Do that Elementary Logic course, Lees!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #79 - May 9th, 2017 at 11:26am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 9th, 2017 at 9:16am:
The BoM said that since 1970 the bushfire season had become longer. You are reading things into that that are not there. Do that Elementary Logic course, Lees!


Yes 1979 was finger error. Should have been 1970. Wink


And that report was based on CSIRO research which was based on "Changes in Australian fire weather between 1973 and 2010".

"For this study, FFDI is chosen to quantify fire weather conditions. This index was empirically derived in the late 1960s to relate weather conditions to expected fire behaviour and rate of spread. "

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.3480/full

If you look at figures 3 & 4 you will see they only go back to about 1974.

"Trends from 1974 to 2015 in annual 90th percentile of daily FFDI at 38 climate reference locations. Trends are in FFDI points per decade and larger circles represent larger trends.
Filled circles represent statistically significant trends. Trends are upward (in red), except for Brisbane airport (in blue). Figure is updated to 2015 from Clarke et al. (2013)."

www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/State-of-the-Climate-...

So FFDI wasn't derived until the 1960's. Clarke et al methodology only goes back to the early 1970's.

So they can't compare early 20th century bushfire seasons to anything. Capiche?



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Reply #80 - May 9th, 2017 at 11:44am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 9th, 2017 at 7:57am:
They found that although humans were still invading and clearing primary forest, they were disturbing an even greater area of secondary forest, plantation and woodland.

Altogether, this clearing of regenerated forest and plantation accounted for 53% of gross tree cover loss, the researchers say, and up to 35% of the above-ground carbon released to the atmosphere.

Fire cleared about 9% of the primary forest, with the damage peaking during the droughts of 2005, 2007 and 2010. – Climate News Network


http://climatenewsnetwork.net/amazon-rainforest-double-jeopardy/

Wildfires becoming more frequent and more unmanageable with AGW and the wildfires in turn add to the CO2 in the air and so increase AGW.



Nothing there about AGW. You do know how humans clear forests?
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Reply #81 - May 9th, 2017 at 7:51pm
 
This is similar to the pine bark beetle now wreaking havoc on the conifer forests of the west coast of the US and Canada: winters too short and mild to kill enough of the beetles or their eggs.

Quote:
A small but dangerous parasite, the winter tick, is spreading north and west as winters become shorter and now is knocking at Alaska's border.

The winter tick, which has already devastated moose populations in New England and the upper Midwest, has been confirmed in Canada's Yukon Territory and in the Northwest Territories, where it's infecting elk, mule deer and some moose.

"Now that they're moving farther north through Canada, north and west, they're eventually going to arrive here, if they're not here already," said Kimberlee Beckmen, wildlife veterinarian for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. "We will be next. It's only a matter of time."


Shorter winters and likely milder winters a result of AGW, of course.

These ticks are more than a nuisance to the animals, especially calves:

Quote:
The average tick load on an infested moose is 40,000, and some have been found with 90,000, said Peter Pekins of the University of New Hampshire, one of the lead scientists studying the disastrous impacts of winter ticks on New England moose.

A load of more than 40,000 ticks will use up a calf's entire blood supply in four weeks, Pekins said. "They get anemic, they have declining weight too, and that's just the end of them," he said.

Adult moose are more likely to survive, but reproduction has been affected, with far fewer cows giving birth to twins, he said.


The life cycle of the tick allows massive numbers of tick eggs to survive winter:
Quote:
The spread of winter ticks is aided by the warming climate, according to Pekins and other scientists.

Because of the timing of ticks' life events, higher temperatures, earlier springs, later winters — the pattern in a warming world — help them survive, proliferate and attach to moose.

Adults females drop off animals in the spring to lay eggs, Pekins said. For an egg-laying female tick, "Her survival is much higher if it's bare ground than if it's 2 feet of snow," he said.

The resulting larvae climb up vegetation and cluster together in the fall in big balls, which passing moose or deer can pick up — and they are affected by the timing of winter's arrival, Pekins said. "The first snow event is key to killing the larval ticks that are up in the vegetation," he said.


The shorter winters helps their spread:
Quote:
In the Northwest Territories, tick-infected "ghost moose" were first documented in the 1980s, and cases have increased since then.

They have spread as far north as 66 degrees latitude in the territory's Sahtu region, and have also been found on caribou, according to biologists' reports. The Arctic Circle is about 66 degrees north latitude.


The North West Territories:
...

Showing the ticks/eggs survive the present shorter winters:
Quote:
Also ominous for Alaska is the result of past research, done by Beckmen's predecessor at Fish and Game, which suggests winter ticks can survive even harsh Fairbanks temperatures.

Randall Zarnke, a former Fish and Game veterinarian, and his research partners tested some captive winter ticks, monitoring adult females and the eggs' hatch success in three Alaska locations, including Fairbanks; many test subjects survived, said the study, published in 1990.


That was 1990, AGW has powered along since then, of course.
Quote:
A recent study co-authored by Beckmen analyzed ticks and found 10 different species of ticks had been retrieved from dogs, cats, people, other mammals and wild birds at 29 sites around the state between 2010 and 2016.

Some of the tick species were native, but some were not — and some nonnative species were found on dogs or humans without recent history of travel outside of Alaska, indicating those ticks have already settled in Alaska.

The brown dog tick is one nonnative species that appears to be well-established in the state, Beckmen said.

The study also included the first Alaska record of one species, Ixodes texanus, commonly called the raccoon tick, which was found on a marten.

There is also one tick-borne disease that has long been in Alaska — tularemia. People exposed to tularemia are treated with antibiotics, but those exposures do not always result in formal diagnoses reported to health authorities, Beckmen said.

Other serious tick-borne diseases have yet to be reported in Alaska.

Not so in the European Arctic and subarctic, where tick-borne diseases are rising in a pattern correlated with increasing temperatures.


https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/environment/2017/05/06/threat-of-moose-killing-t...


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Reply #82 - May 9th, 2017 at 8:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 9th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
The brown dog tick is one nonnative species that appears to be well-established in the state, Beckmen said.



So how did non-native ticks get there?

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Reply #83 - May 9th, 2017 at 8:09pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 9th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
The shorter winters helps their spread:
Quote:
In the Northwest Territories, tick-infected "ghost moose" were first documented in the 1980s, and cases have increased since then.

They have spread as far north as 66 degrees latitude in the territory's Sahtu region, and have also been found on caribou, according to biologists' reports. The Arctic Circle is about 66 degrees north latitude.


Oh, Only first reported in the 1980's. Wonder how long it has been there.

Oh,

"Habitat/Range: The winter tick has a large geographic distribution in North America. They can be found coast to coast through much of Canada and the United States ranging from the Yukon Territory in the north to along the Mexican border in the south. They can be found in a wide variety of habitats, but are strongly associated with the presence of moose. Winter ticks are found in forested areas throughout the state of Maine, particularly in central and northern counties."

https://extension.umaine.edu/ipm/tickid/maine-tick-species/winter-tick-or-moose-...

Just hopped across the border, to the right. Wink

Edit: "The only NWT reports were anecdotal reports of moose affected by winter tick recorded from Fort Providence in 1987 and near Fort Liard and near Fort Smith prior to 19671. However, hunters north of 62º in the NWT were not surveyed in this study."

http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/state-environment/157-trends-winter-tick-moose
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #84 - May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am
 
Quote:
Thawing Alaska Permafrost Sends Autumn CO2 Emissions Surging
Emissions from thawing permafrost are now outpacing the uptake of carbon dioxide during the growing season, a new study suggests


Soaring temperatures in the Arctic have triggered a huge seasonal surge in carbon dioxide emissions from thawing permafrost and may be tipping the region toward becoming a net source of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, a new study shows.

Even into early winter, when the ground would have been frozen 40 years ago, microbes in the permafrost are continuing to release heat-trapping greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide emissions are now outpacing the uptake of CO2 during the spring and summer growing season, the study suggests.

The study's authors, researchers from Harvard, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and other institutions, measured atmospheric CO2 in Alaska and found that emissions from October through December have increased by 73 percent since 1975 and that the increase correlates with rising summer temperatures.


Positive feedback where increasing warmth releases more heat–trapping emissions.

Quote:
The findings suggest that global climate models are underestimating how much greenhouse gas pollution will be unleashed as the Arctic continues to warm at twice the global average rate, said lead author Roisin Commane of the Harvard School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

The Arctic climate feedback loop is stronger than scientists estimated, Commane said. Global warming thaws permafrost, releasing more greenhouse gases, which causes yet more warming.

"It's consistent with the effects of a warming Arctic," she said. "We're seeing very large emissions in the early winter. When I looked at the models used by the IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change], none of them looked at the fall respiration. They didn't realize how important that is."


Quote:
Year-round measurements of CO2 emissions from permafrost have been sparse up to now, and some widely cited studies suggested that rising emissions from thawing permafrost were offset by increased uptake from Arctic forests. But according to the new research, those calculations need to be revised.

Plants inhale massive amounts of CO2 in the spring and summer growing season. Then, in the fall and winter, the plants die and decompose, releasing CO2 and methane. That cycle gives the global CO2 level its signature zigzag pattern. In the Arctic, emissions during the decomposition phase are outpacing CO2 uptake during the growing season, according to the study.


Quote:
A recent report from the Arctic Council found that near-surface permafrost has warmed by more than 0.5 degrees Celsius in the last 10 years, and that summer thawing has deepened at most monitoring locations.

Permafrost currently covers about 5.8 million square miles. A study published in April that looked at the impact rising temperatures would have on the permafrost and found that as much as 2.5 million square miles of it could thaw if global temperatures reached 2 degree Celsius above pre-industrial temperatures. Another study, published in February, found that 52,000 square miles of Canadian permafrost was already in rapid decline.


Quote:
The new Alaska study is another step toward understanding how sensitive the Arctic is to increasing temperatures. The Arctic permafrost seals in a massive store of carbon, roughly double the amount of CO2 currently in Earth's atmosphere. If the trends being seen in Alaska are similar in Siberia and Canada, it would have a big effect on the global carbon budget, said co-author Pieter Tans, with NOAA's Earth Systems Research laboratory.

"The important thing in this paper is, it shows where the models fail. They don't capture these cold-season emissions very well," said Donatella Zona of San Diego State University in California, who was not involved in the new research.

"We need to make the case that this is important and get the resources to expand the studies in other areas, especially Siberia," she said.


https://insideclimatenews.org/news/08052017/arctic-permafrost-thawing-alaska-tem...

Yeah, “just a cycle” eh ’Erbert?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #85 - May 14th, 2017 at 11:00am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
Soaring temperatures in the Arctic have triggered a huge seasonal surge in carbon dioxide emissions from thawing permafrost and may be tipping the region toward becoming a net source of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, a new study shows.



Oh, I thought the scare campaign was methane.

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
Year-round measurements of CO2 emissions from permafrost have been sparse up to now, and some widely cited studies suggested that rising emissions from thawing permafrost were offset by increased uptake from Arctic forests. But according to the new research, those calculations need to be revised.


So we have little knowledge, long term

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
A recent report from the Arctic Council found that near-surface permafrost has warmed by more than 0.5 degrees Celsius in the last 10 years,


Was it still below freezing?

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
A study published in April that looked at the impact rising temperatures would have on the permafrost and found that as much as 2.5 million square miles of it could thaw if global temperatures reached 2 degree Celsius above pre-industrial temperatures.


It must be worse than we thought. What happens id it stops at 1 degree Celsius?

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
"The important thing in this paper is, it shows where the models fail. They don't capture these cold-season emissions very well," said Donatella Zona of San Diego State University in California, who was not involved in the new research.


Oh well back to sleep then. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:22am:
Yeah, “just a cycle” eh ’Erbert?


Can you show it has never happened before?

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #86 - May 15th, 2017 at 1:36pm
 
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Reply #87 - May 19th, 2017 at 11:25am
 
Thawing of the Arctic tundra releasing CO
2
into the atmosphere:

https://thinkprogress.org/alaskas-vicious-cycle-warming-tundra-spews-co2-speedin...
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Reply #88 - May 19th, 2017 at 5:32pm
 
Oh No Think Progress.

from the  paper behind it.

". Data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Barrow station indicate that October through December emissions of CO2 from surrounding tundra increased by 73% since 1975, "

How did they determine what was caused by melting permafrost and the Urban Heat Island effect caused by fossil fuel heaters? Peer-reviewed paper at springer

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.971/pdf

Dated 2003. Do you think they might be using solar heaters now?
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Reply #89 - May 20th, 2017 at 2:33pm
 
Quote:
It was designed as an impregnable deep-freeze to protect the world’s most precious seeds from any global disaster and ensure humanity’s food supply forever. But the Global Seed Vault, buried in a mountain deep inside the Arctic circle, has been breached after global warming produced extraordinary temperatures over the winter, sending meltwater gushing into the entrance tunnel.

The vault is on the Norwegian island of Spitsbergen and contains almost a million packets of seeds, each a variety of an important food crop. When it was opened in 2008, the deep permafrost through which the vault was sunk was expected to provide “failsafe” protection against “the challenge of natural or man-made disasters”.

But soaring temperatures in the Arctic at the end of the world’s hottest ever recorded year led to melting and heavy rain, when light snow should have been falling. “It was not in our plans to think that the permafrost would not be there and that it would experience extreme weather like that,” said Hege Njaa Aschim, from the Norwegian government, which owns the vault.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/19/arctic-stronghold-of-worlds-...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #90 - May 20th, 2017 at 4:35pm
 
Yes. More alarmist crap from the Garudian. Grin Grin ;

Jovial Monk wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 2:33pm:
at the end of the world’s hottest ever recorded year l


You mean the world's average temperature; first calculated in 1986. Not from readings, because Sea Surface Temperatures were not well sampled.

Sea Surface temperatures were taken from ships, which of course sailed defined routes. Therefore vast areas of the ocean were not sampled at all, and others rarely.

But the alarmists don't want to admit that.  According to them everything is hunky-dory.

They don't want to admit climate changes. It should be static at some "goldilocks temperature". Don't ask then what that is; they don't know.
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Reply #91 - May 20th, 2017 at 4:43pm
 
Lees: blah blah blah oh Mummy, don’t let global temperatures increase, I am frightened.
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Reply #92 - May 20th, 2017 at 5:06pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Lees: blah blah blah oh Mummy, don’t let global temperatures increase, I am frightened.



I see you still haven't got over your fear. It's all right possum. Wink
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Reply #93 - May 21st, 2017 at 11:38am
 
...

Quote:
NASA has come out with its monthly analysis of global temperatures, and the
results are notable, if not terribly surprising: Last month was the second warmest April in 137 years of modern record-keeping.

Last month beat out April of 2010 by just a small amount to achieve that distinction, according to the analysis by NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies. It was second only to April 2016, which shattered the record for warmest year, thanks in part to a boost from El Niño.

Temperatures have moderated just a bit from the astonishing highs of 2016, as you can see in the following graph charting how the global average surface temperature has varied from that of the pre- and early-industrial time of 1880 to 1920:


...

Quote:
ImaGeo
« Why you should take hyperventilating headlines about CO2 with a grain of salt — but still be quite concerned Polar eye candy: check out this spectacular aerial photo of a Greenlandic fjord from NASA’s Operation IceBridge »
The heat goes on: This past April was second warmest in records dating back to 1880 — as were February and March
By Tom Yulsman | May 17, 2017 1:41 pm
19
But with the monster El Niño of 2015/2016 far back in the rear-view mirror, temperatures in 2017 are running somewhat lower than last year

A map of temperature anomalies in April 2017 shows that central and northeast Asia, as well as Alaska, were much warmer than the 1951-1980 base period. (Source: NASA GISS)

NASA has come out with its monthly analysis of global temperatures, and the results are notable, if not terribly surprising: Last month was the second warmest April in 137 years of modern record-keeping.

Last month beat out April of 2010 by just a small amount to achieve that distinction, according to the analysis by NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies. It was second only to April 2016, which shattered the record for warmest year, thanks in part to a boost from El Niño.

Temperatures have moderated just a bit from the astonishing highs of 2016, as you can see in the following graph charting how the global average surface temperature has varied from that of the pre- and early-industrial time of 1880 to 1920:

This graph shows how global temperatures have changed from pre- and early-industrial times. (Source: NASA GISS)
Source: NASA GISS
The graph, which takes us through April, shows the 2016 peak and subsequent modest fall-off so far this year. Also noteworthy is the pattern. There are obvious short-term variations, including some periods of slower warming. But overall, since 1970 the globe has experienced an unambiguous long-term warming trend.

Although we’re clearly off last year’s peak, the globe continues to be plenty warm. January was the third-warmest such month on record. Since then, February and March, like last month, were second warmest respectively. . . .

The most intense warmth anomalies during April were in the high north, as well as central Asia. Alaska was particularly warm last month (following a relatively cool March), as were Russia’s Arctic reaches.

Overall, the Arctic continues to warm at twice the average rate of the rest of the globe. In fact, during 2016, land areas of the Arctic experienced the highest average temperature in the observational record, with a 6.3 degree Fahrenheit increase since 1900, according to the NOAA-sponsored Arctic Report Card.

“Rarely have we seen the Arctic show a clearer, stronger or more pronounced signal of persistent warming and its cascading effects on the environment,” said Jeremy Mathis, director of NOAA’s Arctic Research Program, quoted in a NOAA news release.



http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/imageo/2017/05/17/april-was-second-warmest-on-...

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #94 - May 21st, 2017 at 12:42pm
 
Wow. Look at all that warming since 1951 - 1981. I wonder how they got the data for the Arctic and Antarctic back then? No satellites, sparsely populated, few records.

How much homogenisation? What grid size for the data?

Look how much Australia has warmed in that period.  Wink
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Reply #95 - May 31st, 2017 at 4:52pm
 
[quote][b][size=18]Nitrous Oxide Poses Fresh Threat to the Arctic[/size][/b]

[size=14]As permafrost thaws, emissions of this potent greenhouse gas increase[/size]

The thawing of the Arctic permafrost is releasing a potent greenhouse gas into the atmosphere that has rarely been considered as a threat despite its tremendous potential to drive global warming.

Nitrous oxide, or N2O, is more of a threat to the Arctic and global warming than previously believed, according to a study published yesterday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Currently, it's not usually considered when researchers create models to predict the future warming of the region, said Carolina Voigt, a researcher at the University of Eastern Finland and a lead author of the study.

"It is roughly 300 times more powerful in warming the climate than CO2 [carbon dioxide] on a 100-year time horizon, so it is a strong greenhouse gas, and even small amounts emitted can add to the total greenhouse gas budget of the area," she said.[/quote]

So N2O is worse than methane in terms of AGW, methane is like 35 times more powerful than CO2 but not as long lasting.

[quote]Scientists are still studying some of the natural sources of carbon dioxide. The Arctic's permafrost, which is steadily thawing as the region keeps getting warmer, is also releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, creating a feedback loop of transformation that drives further warming.

Currently, the world's largest source of terrestrial nitrous oxide is the tropical forest. However, the study found that emissions of nitrous oxide from a typical Arctic landscape, permafrost peatlands with little vegetation cover, could equal those from the tropics. About a quarter of the Arctic is permafrost peatlands, meaning the area has tremendous potential to be a major source of nitrous oxide release, researchers found.

Researchers have also begun to explore sources of methane, a more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and how that drives climate change. But little research has been conducted on nitrous oxide as a source of warming, Voigt said. The study shows more research is needed to understand what is happening to the Arctic, she said.[/quote]

We certainly would not want huge releases of N2O and CH4!

[url]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nitrous-oxide-poses-fresh-threat-to-the-arctic/[/url]
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #96 - May 31st, 2017 at 6:18pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 4:52pm:
methane is like 35 times more powerful than CO2 but not as long lasting.



Back to 35 from 100, or  80 but still above 20.

But then it is measured in ppb; so its effect is really, really small.
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Reply #97 - May 31st, 2017 at 6:24pm
 
lee wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 6:18pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 4:52pm:
methane is like 35 times more powerful than CO2 but not as long lasting.



Back to 35 from 100, or  80 but still above 20.

But then it is measured in ppb; so its effect is really, really small.

Methane is basically exactly counteracted by the fact it is measured in ppb, yes! It all breaks down to CO2 anyway so the whole methane argument is a red herring: presuming it's rate of release is constant of course  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Roll Eyes

But we all know this so it's more wasted internet address space: we've all done the circle party a million times over this exact issue!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #98 - May 31st, 2017 at 6:42pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 11:38am:
from the astonishing highs of 2016,



Ooh Astonishing. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #99 - May 31st, 2017 at 6:46pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 11:38am:
In fact, during 2016, land areas of the Arctic experienced the highest average temperature in the observational record, with a 6.3 degree Fahrenheit increase since 1900, according to the NOAA-sponsored Arctic Report Card.


So tell me how many observational records were available in 1900?
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Reply #100 - May 31st, 2017 at 7:15pm
 
On land? Quite a few I suppose.
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Reply #101 - May 31st, 2017 at 7:26pm
 
lee wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 6:42pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 11:38am:
from the astonishing highs of 2016,



Ooh Astonishing. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

lee wants to talk about colourful language: from the crowd who voted for copper internet no less  Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #102 - May 31st, 2017 at 7:40pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 7:15pm:
On land? Quite a few I suppose.


oh dear.
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Reply #103 - May 31st, 2017 at 7:54pm
 
lee wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 7:40pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 7:15pm:
On land? Quite a few I suppose.


oh dear.

the semantic circle game is baaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk  Roll Eyes
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Reply #104 - May 31st, 2017 at 8:22pm
 
Well let's see.

"The development of Russian Arctic stations carrying out meteorological observations began around 1923 (Taracouzio 1938). "

http://www.climate4you.com/ClimateAndHistory%201900-1949.htm#1923:%20Establishme...

Well that certainly cuts out a large part of the Arctic.

"Fig.1. Location of current manual weather stations in the Norwegian Arctic. Bjørnøya: elevation 16m a.s.l., start of measurements1920. Hopen: 6 m a.s.l., 1944. Hornsund (Polish): 10 m a.s.l., 1978. Sveagruva 9 m a.s.l., 1978.
Barentsburg (Russian): 70 m a.s.l., 1933. Svalbard Airport:
28 m a.s.l., 1975. Ny-Ålesund: 8 m a.s.l., 1974. Jan Mayen: 10 m a.s.l., 1921."

"Past and future climate variations in the Norwegian Arctic:
overview and novel analyses
Eirik J. Førland & Inger Hanssen-Bauer"

"Substantial variations in temperature and precipitation have been observed since the first permanent weather station was established in the Svalbard region in 1911."

" The annual temperature has increased in Svalbard and Jan Mayen during the latest decades, but the present level is still lower than in the 1930s"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-8369.2003.tb00102.x/full

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/amete/2011/893790/

Have you got anything back to 1900?
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Reply #105 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 2:02pm
 
I found a pretty graph too..

...
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Reply #106 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 2:04pm
 
and another...

...
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Reply #107 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 2:05pm
 
oh and the BIGGER picture...

...
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Reply #108 - Jun 27th, 2017 at 8:44pm
 
Sea level rise gets an uptick:

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/879492932352528384/1PACZ1Px?format=jpg

Quote:
The rate of global sea level rise has increased by 50 per cent in a little over two decades, a study from Australian and international researchers has found.

The study, published by Nature Climate Change, used refined satellite estimates to show global sea level rise has increased from 2.2 millimetres each year in 1993, to 3.3 millimetres each year in 2014.


http://www.smh.com.au/environment/rate-of-global-sea-level-rise-jumps-50-per-cen...

Quote:
It was launched in an effort to understand why an accelerated rate of sea-level rise, between 1993 and 2014, had not been accurately represented in data from altimeters [satellite instruments used to measure height or altitude], despite accelerating contributions from ice sheets.

According to researchers from Qingdao National Laboratory for Marine Science and Technology, CSIRO Australia and the Universities of NSW, Tasmania and Arizona, the dramatic increase is thought to be mostly related to the melting of the Greenland ice sheet.


Hence all the ice choking the sea off Newfoundland. And Dubyne said it was proof of the ridiculous LIA  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

...
Quote:
The Greenland Ice Sheet contributed 5 per cent of the total sea level rise in 1993, by 2014 this figure increased to about 25 per cent. Photo: New York Times



Quote:
"We don't know exactly why the pace has increased, as ice sheets are dynamic and quite complex," said report co-author Xuebin Zhang, senior scientist of CSIRO oceans and atmosphere.

"Based on robust estimates of the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet ... maybe it's from the surface melting and also the discharge of the ice gradually into the ocean," he said.

"Both processes cause a shifting of mass from the Greenland ice sheet into the ocean, so as long as you have the mass shifting from land to ocean, you will get this sea level rise effect."

The team of researchers compared satellite data between 1993 and 2014 with other environmental changes that contribute to sea level rise, such as thermal expansion, melting of land ice and changes to the amount of water stored on land.


...
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Reply #109 - Jun 27th, 2017 at 9:22pm
 
Very interesting.

Are they using tide gauge data, you know like in Tasmania?

Photos of erosion? Again like you showed in Tasmania?

Satellite data?

Or a tricky bit of legerdemain, and adding tide gauge data to satellite  data?

I guess it is satellite data, it is only from 1993. Can you show tide gauge data that shows the same. It should be easy with those you beaut climate averaging models. Grin Grin Grin

Edit: Kiribati-

...

You would think there would be some sign for Kiribati. But no.

Perhaps you can give us one of these sites that show increased sea level there. Marshall Islands?
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Reply #110 - Jun 27th, 2017 at 11:20pm
 
Here you go:
Quote:
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NATURE CLIMATE CHANGE | LETTER
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The increasing rate of global mean sea-level rise during 1993–2014

Xianyao Chen,      Xuebin Zhang,      John A. Church,      Christopher S. Watson,      Matt A. King,      Didier Monselesan,      Benoit Legresy      & Christopher Harig
AffiliationsContributionsCorresponding authors
Nature Climate Change (2017) doi:10.1038/nclimate3325
Received 19 October 2016 Accepted 22 May 2017 Published online 26 June 2017
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Global mean sea level (GMSL) has been rising at a faster rate during the satellite altimetry period (1993–2014) than previous decades, and is expected to accelerate further over the coming century1. However, the accelerations observed over century and longer periods2 have not been clearly detected in altimeter data spanning the past two decades3, 4, 5. Here we show that the rise, from the sum of all observed contributions to GMSL, increases from 2.2 ± 0.3 mm yr−1 in 1993 to 3.3 ± 0.3 mm yr−1 in 2014. This is in approximate agreement with observed increase in GMSL rise, 2.4 ± 0.2 mm yr−1 (1993) to 2.9 ± 0.3 mm yr−1 (2014), from satellite observations that have been adjusted for small systematic drift, particularly affecting the first decade of satellite observations6. The mass contributions to GMSL increase from about 50% in 1993 to 70% in 2014 with the largest, and statistically significant, increase coming from the contribution from the Greenland ice sheet, which is less than 5% of the GMSL rate during 1993 but more than 25% during 2014. The suggested acceleration and improved closure of the sea-level budget highlights the importance and urgency of mitigating climate change and formulating coastal adaption plans to mitigate the impacts of ongoing sea-level rise.


http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate3325.html
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #111 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:30am
 
Long article on the science of ice sheets and their melting:

http://environment.harvard.edu/news/general/answers-ice
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #112 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 11:54am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 11:20pm:
Here you go:



As I suspected satellite not tide gauge.

from Jason -2

"Measure the surface topography of the world's oceans to within a few centimetres, which is important for accurately describing seasonal and inter-annual climate variations, etc. "

https://www.eumetsat.int/jason/print.htm

A few centimetres? 20-30mm accuracy? Too funny.

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Reply #113 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 1:42pm
 
So, you didn’t understand the article? Probably didn’t bother reading it, skimmed it just looking for something to sneer at.
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Reply #114 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 2:43pm
 
LOL
the world (mostly Western democracies)
are being asked to spend Trillions of dollars for almost no appreciable outcome.

The IPCC started this as a wealth redistribution scheme.
That is the true consequence.
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Reply #115 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 3:32pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 1:42pm:
So, you didn’t understand the article? Probably didn’t bother reading it, skimmed it just looking for something to sneer at.



So you don't understand accuracy of measurement. Oh dear.
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Reply #116 - Jun 30th, 2017 at 12:10am
 
This wouldn't be Lee trying to argue with the person and not argue about the issue would it? Usually that's the debating technique either idiots or people with nothing to back up their opinions use.
Of course, you could prove me wrong and provide some peer reviewed evidence that supports any of the "wisdom" that you post here, but we all know that's never going to happen Grin
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Reply #117 - Jun 30th, 2017 at 10:58pm
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 12:10am:
This wouldn't be Lee trying to argue with the person and not argue about the issue would it? Usually that's the debating technique either idiots or people with nothing to back up their opinions use.
Of course, you could prove me wrong and provide some peer reviewed evidence that supports any of the "wisdom" that you post here, but we all know that's never going to happen



You are so funny.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 11:20pm:
However, the accelerations observed over century and longer periods2 have not been clearly detected in altimeter data spanning the past two decades3, 4, 5. Here we show that the rise, from the sum of all observed contributions to GMSL, increases from 2.2 ± 0.3 mm yr−1 in 1993 to 3.3 ± 0.3 mm yr−1 in 2014


lee wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 11:54am:
from Jason -2

"Measure the surface topography of the world's oceans to within a few centimetres, which is important for accurately describing seasonal and inter-annual climate variations, etc. "

https://www.eumetsat.int/jason/print.htm

A few centimetres? 20-30mm accuracy? Too funny.



Now you do understand that an accuracy of centimetres cannot give readings accurate to 0.3mm.

Or if you have a different view please give it, with citation. Wink

Pho Huc wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 12:10am:
you could prove me wrong and provide some peer reviewed evidence that supports any of the "wisdom" that you post here,


Being able to read would be a good start.

BTW - What was the outcome of your review of AR5. Chapter9 Table 9.5. Wink




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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #118 - Jul 2nd, 2017 at 4:00am
 
lee wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
BTW - What was the outcome of your review of AR5. Chapter9 Table 9.5. Wink




Given I think the AR5 is an unwieldy piece of politico-science I prefer to base my opinions on peer reviewed studies. But i'm funny like that. And again,your cherry picking. Everything you base your arguments on are just fragments of science. distorted for your own purpose. its gross.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #119 - Jul 2nd, 2017 at 6:46pm
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 4:00am:
lee wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
BTW - What was the outcome of your review of AR5. Chapter9 Table 9.5. Wink




Given I think the AR5 is an unwieldy piece of politico-science I prefer to base my opinions on peer reviewed studies.


Strange. The IPCC claim they use peer-reviewed studies. Are you saying they cherry-pick? Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #120 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 5:34am
 
lee wrote on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 6:46pm:
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 4:00am:
lee wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
BTW - What was the outcome of your review of AR5. Chapter9 Table 9.5. Wink




Given I think the AR5 is an unwieldy piece of politico-science I prefer to base my opinions on peer reviewed studies.


Strange. The IPCC claim they use peer-reviewed studies. Are you saying they cherry-pick? Grin Grin Grin Grin


Yep. the IPCC report is a mess. Im always happy to talk about the studies the IPCC actually used, but the IPCC is a political report, not a peer review document. I don't know why you obsess over it honestly. It's such a time wasting piece of garbage, time that could be better spent reading actual research.
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Reply #121 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 6:41am
 
It is a cherry orchard for Lees.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #122 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 11:33am
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 5:34am:
the IPCC report is a mess. Im always happy to talk about the studies the IPCC actually used,



You don't believe the IPCC got their data on the climate models in Table 9.5 from the modellers?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Reply #123 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 7:22pm
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 5:34am:
lee wrote on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 6:46pm:
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 4:00am:
lee wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
BTW - What was the outcome of your review of AR5. Chapter9 Table 9.5. Wink




Given I think the AR5 is an unwieldy piece of politico-science I prefer to base my opinions on peer reviewed studies.


Strange. The IPCC claim they use peer-reviewed studies. Are you saying they cherry-pick? Grin Grin Grin Grin


Yep. the IPCC report is a mess. Im always happy to talk about the studies the IPCC actually used, but the IPCC is a political report, not a peer review document. I don't know why you obsess over it honestly. It's such a time wasting piece of garbage, time that could be better spent reading actual research.

Political documents are actionable by the relevant minister.

Necessarily cautious in nature as economies need stability or you get anarchy but it's well known the vested interests of included countries make it even more so.

You could say it's useless but it's very existence portends change for us all. The relationship has been established... The rest is just a numbers game !
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Reply #124 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 10:35pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 11:33am:
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 5:34am:
the IPCC report is a mess. Im always happy to talk about the studies the IPCC actually used,



You don't believe the IPCC got their data on the climate models in Table 9.5 from the modellers?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin



I believe that you would be more comfortable arguing minutia on a complex political report than giving a explanation for why the earth is warming at least ten times faster than any previous period in earth history(at least since it established a biosphere), that doesnt include a large AGW component.
Hence, you choose to argue about reports, while ignoring rising sea temperatures, air temperatures, desertification, ice coverage loss, changing rainfall patterns and changes in ocean currents. you know, all the stuff that matters.
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Reply #125 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:42am
 
I don't know why you guys bother about what are essentially political documents.
The original treatise and its in writing somewhere mantra has posted it before states that the main reason for the IPCC is simply global wealth redistribution.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #126 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:24pm
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 10:35pm:
I believe that you would be more comfortable arguing minutia on a complex political report than giving a explanation for why the earth is warming at least ten times faster than any previous period in earth history(at least since it established a biosphere), that doesnt include a large AGW component.



Well first that would have to be established. Did you read Marcott's Explanation?

"Global Temperature Reconstruction: We combined published proxy temperature records from across the globe to develop regional and global temperature reconstructions spanning the past ~11,300 years with a resolution >300 yr; previous reconstructions of global and hemispheric temperatures primarily spanned the last one to two thousand years."

you lose a lot of data in 300 years.
. At present you are talking 130 years.  Longer timespans lose more data.

"Holocene Temperature Distribution: Based on comparison of the instrumental record of global temperature change with the distribution of Holocene global average temperatures from our paleo-reconstruction, we find that the decade 2000-2009 has probably not exceeded the warmest temperatures of the early Holocene, but is warmer than ~75% of all temperatures during the Holocene. In contrast, the decade 1900-1909 was cooler than~95% of the Holocene. Therefore, we conclude that global temperature has risen from near the coldest to the warmest levels of the Holocene in the past century. Further, we compare the Holocene paleotemperature distribution with published temperature projections for 2100 CE, and find that these projections exceed the range of Holocene global average temperatures under all plausible emissions scenarios. "

The biosphere existed before humans.

"Q: What do paleotemperature reconstructions show about the temperature of the last 100 years?

A: Our global paleotemperature reconstruction includes a so-called “uptick” in temperatures during the 20th-century. However, in the paper we make the point that this particular feature is of shorter duration than the inherent smoothing in our statistical averaging procedure, and that it is based on only a few available paleo-reconstructions of the type we used. Thus, the 20th century portion of our paleotemperature stack is not statistically robust, cannot be considered representative of global temperature changes, and therefore is not the basis of any of our conclusions. "

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/03/response-by-marcott-et-al/

Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 10:35pm:
Hence, you choose to argue about reports, while ignoring rising sea temperatures


Oh dear, back to sea surface temperatures. Taken as given back to 1880. Ships buckets were used to take the temperature. Then they were taken in ships engine rooms, at various depths, depending on whether the ship was laden or not. And the ship's engine rooms warm the water. See Hausfather's reconstruction.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/01/04/global-warming-hiatus-disproved-again/

The pristine buoy data put a "cooling bias" on the perceived warm engine room data.

Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 10:35pm:
desertification,



Please look at the CSIRO.


https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2013/Deserts-greening-from-rising-CO2

Pho Huc wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 10:35pm:
changing rainfall patterns and changes in ocean currents. you know, all the stuff that matters.


Climate changes. Now link it to AGW.
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Reply #127 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:40pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:42am:
I don't know why you guys bother about what are essentially political documents.
The original treatise and its in writing somewhere mantra has posted it before states that the main reason for the IPCC is simply global wealth redistribution.

You should back it up bros  Cheesy
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Reply #128 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:59am
 
AGW is hitting part of Spain, causing draught and fast–rising temperatures"

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/07/02/534746211/drought-threatens-cro...

Quote:
Drought Threatens Crops, Wildlife Along Spain's Guadalquivir River Delta


Wild horses and cattle graze on the marshy banks of southern Spain's mighty Guadalquivir River.

From the mouth of this river, Christopher Columbus set off for the New World.

But since then, the river has gotten more salty. As fresh water is extracted for agriculture, drought — made more frequent by climate change — means less rainfall replaces it. Tides send salt water farther upriver.


800 gallons per second are pumped out the river and sent to irrigated fields,mainly rice paddies. The water is tested hourly and pumping stops if salt concentrations get too high. So the rice plants face death from too much salt in the water or from not enough water. This gets worse as this area of Spain gets hotter and drier. Less fresh water from rain coming down the river means seawater pushing further into the river every flood tide.

Quote:
That's happened at least three times in the past two decades. Whole harvests have been lost, when there isn't enough fresh water to irrigate.


That isn’t all.

Quote:
But rice is not the biggest offender to the environment here, because rice farmers draw water from the river, extractions from which are regulated. The bigger problem is berries. The Guadalquivir region supplies about a third of all of Europe's strawberries — and strawberry farmers drill wells into the aquifer.

"The problem with the aquifer is that it's something you don't see, because it's an underground pool," says Felipe Fuentelsaz, who tests groundwater levels for the local branch of the World Wildlife Fund.

Eighty percent of the region's aquifer has dried up because of intensive agriculture and the drilling of illegal wells, the WWF says. Some farmers rent drilling rigs and haul them out into secluded forests in the middle of the night, or on holiday weekends, to drill wells for which they don't have permits. The WWF estimates there are at least 10,000 illegal wells in the entire region, and it contends that local officials aren't doing enough to stop them.


So aquifers are being drained to provide water to grow strawberries. That can go on only so long.

But that’s not all!

Quote:
This isn't only about farmers stealing water. It's about farmers stealing water that won't be replenished as quickly by rainfall, because of increasing drought. Climate change is already driving up local temperatures, experts say.

"At the moment, they are increasing 0.07 degrees [Celsius] every year. So it's something that's really high," the WWF's Fuentelsaz says. "The normal seasons have been moved. This is really a complete change for biodiversity — for flora, for fauna, for everything."


Temperatures increasing by .7°C every decade.

This is similar but more extreme  to what is happening to Southern Australia.

Things can be done in Guadalquivir part of Spain: barriers to prevent ingress of sea water, stricter enforcement of rules re drilling of wells and pumping water from the aquifers.

That .7°C increase every decade and ever–worsening droughts will be harder to live with.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #129 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:17am
 

Pacific islands 'growing not shrinking' due to climate change

Low-lying Pacific islands regarded as "poster child" examples of the threat from rising sea levels are expanding not sinking,
a new study has revealed
.


Low-lying Pacific islands regarded as "poster child" examples of the threat from rising sea levels are expanding not sinking, a new study has revealed.

Scientists have been surprised by the findings, which show that some islands have grown by almost one-third over the past 60 years.

Among the island chains to have increased in land area are Tuvalu and neighbouring Kiribati, both of which attracted attention at last year's Copenhagen climate summit …

Professor Paul Kench, of Auckland University, who co-authored the study with Dr Arthur Webb, a Fiji-based expert on coastal processes, said the study challenged the view that the islands were sinking as a result of global warming.

"Eighty per cent of the islands we've looked at have either remained about the same or, in fact, got larger.

"Some have got dramatically larger," he said.

"We've now got evidence the physical foundations of these islands will still be there in 100 years," he told New Scientist magazine.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/tuvalu/7799503/...

Whatever happens, a 'new study' will always reveal that everything - shrinking growing - to be due to AGW. This is the best scientific theory - whatever happens proves AGW. YAY!!!!!!

But sadly, no more bogus climate refugees, then. Cry Cry Cry
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #130 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 10:34am
 
From the article linked above:

Quote:
Quote:
But the two scientists warn that people living on the islands still face serious challenges from climate change, particularly if the pace of sea level rises were to overtake that of sediment build-up.

The fresh groundwater that sustains villagers and their crops could be destroyed.

"The land may be there but will they still be able to support human habitation?" he said.
Naomi Thirobaux, a student from Kiribati who has studied the islands for a PhD, said no one should be lulled into thinking erosion and inundation were not taking their toll on the islands.
"In a populated place, people can't move back or inland because there's hardly any place to move into, so that's quite dramatic," she said.


We have seen that sea level rise from Greenland melting/calving has recently accelerated. Antarctica too is starting to add to sea level rise.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #131 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:36am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:59am:
AGW is hitting part of Spain, causing draught and fast–rising temperatures"



Yes. They never had drought in the old days. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #132 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:44am
 
People are so scared on Kiribati the population has increased by about 20% since 2005.
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Reply #133 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:55am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:59am:
AGW is hitting part of Spain, causing draught and fast–rising temperatures"

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/07/02/534746211/drought-threatens-cro...

Quote:
Drought Threatens Crops, Wildlife Along Spain's Guadalquivir River Delta


Wild horses and cattle graze on the marshy banks of southern Spain's mighty Guadalquivir River.

From the mouth of this river, Christopher Columbus set off for the New World.

But since then, the river has gotten more salty. As fresh water is extracted for agriculture, drought — made more frequent by climate change — means less rainfall replaces it. Tides send salt water farther upriver.


800 gallons per second are pumped out the river and sent to irrigated fields,mainly rice paddies. The water is tested hourly and pumping stops if salt concentrations get too high. So the rice plants face death from too much salt in the water or from not enough water. This gets worse as this area of Spain gets hotter and drier. Less fresh water from rain coming down the river means seawater pushing further into the river every flood tide.

Quote:
That's happened at least three times in the past two decades. Whole harvests have been lost, when there isn't enough fresh water to irrigate.


That isn’t all.

Quote:
But rice is not the biggest offender to the environment here, because rice farmers draw water from the river, extractions from which are regulated. The bigger problem is berries. The Guadalquivir region supplies about a third of all of Europe's strawberries — and strawberry farmers drill wells into the aquifer.

"The problem with the aquifer is that it's something you don't see, because it's an underground pool," says Felipe Fuentelsaz, who tests groundwater levels for the local branch of the World Wildlife Fund.

Eighty percent of the region's aquifer has dried up because of intensive agriculture and the drilling of illegal wells, the WWF says. Some farmers rent drilling rigs and haul them out into secluded forests in the middle of the night, or on holiday weekends, to drill wells for which they don't have permits. The WWF estimates there are at least 10,000 illegal wells in the entire region, and it contends that local officials aren't doing enough to stop them.


So aquifers are being drained to provide water to grow strawberries. That can go on only so long.

But that’s not all!

Quote:
This isn't only about farmers stealing water. It's about farmers stealing water that won't be replenished as quickly by rainfall, because of increasing drought. Climate change is already driving up local temperatures, experts say.

"At the moment, they are increasing 0.07 degrees [Celsius] every year. So it's something that's really high," the WWF's Fuentelsaz says. "The normal seasons have been moved. This is really a complete change for biodiversity — for flora, for fauna, for everything."


Temperatures increasing by .7°C every decade.

This is similar but more extreme  to what is happening to Southern Australia.

Things can be done in Guadalquivir part of Spain: barriers to prevent ingress of sea water, stricter enforcement of rules re drilling of wells and pumping water from the aquifers.

That .7°C increase every decade and ever–worsening droughts will be harder to live with.

So conservatively are we saying that Spain will see a 3.5 degree temperature change in the next 100 years?


  Shocked
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Reply #134 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:59am
 
7°C.

And more and more frequent droughts.

And, not mentioned in the article, rising sea levels pushing salt water further and further inland. Big storms should see flooding over larger and larger areas, destroying soils, aquifers etc.
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Reply #135 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:59am:
7°C.

And more and more frequent droughts.

And, not mentioned in the article, rising sea levels pushing salt water further and further inland. Big storms should see flooding over larger and larger areas, destroying soils, aquifers etc.

I would expect a sgnificant error value, to such a number... Because if a 7 degree temperature rise for Spain is assured over the next 100 years I would expect global panic would already be upon us!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #136 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:09pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:59am:
7°C.

And more and more frequent droughts.

And, not mentioned in the article, rising sea levels pushing salt water further and further inland. Big storms should see flooding over larger and larger areas, destroying soils, aquifers etc.

I would expect a significant error value to such a number... Because if a 7 degree temperature rise for Spain is assured over the next 100 years I would expect global panic to already be upon us!

Also,... Have you seen this: ...
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Reply #137 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:12pm
 
Christ, DRAH, can you shrink that image?

It says .7°C increase a year. I just multiplied by 10 and 100, doubt it will work like that DRAH  Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #138 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 2:29pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:40pm:
Grendel wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:42am:
I don't know why you guys bother about what are essentially political documents.
The original treatise and its in writing somewhere mantra has posted it before states that the main reason for the IPCC is simply global wealth redistribution.

You should back it up bros  Cheesy

Ask mantra...
i'm too busy to look right now.
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Reply #139 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:33pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:59am:
7°C.


So two doublings of CO2. 1120ppm.  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

That would mean no mitigation strategies like nuclear.
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Reply #140 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
That was a bit of a joke, really. Trust you not to get that  Wink

Nice to see how up to date you are with the CO2/temperature relationship tho.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #141 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:49pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
That was a bit of a joke, really.


Or just a dumbarse comment from Bluff, Bluster and Bullshit. Wink
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Reply #142 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 3:50pm
 
No, it was my comment, not yours  Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #143 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:01pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:12pm:
Christ, DRAH, can you shrink that image?

It says .7°C increase a year. I just multiplied by 10 and 100, doubt it will work like that DRAH  Grin

- image: no can do,... I'm on the iPad and it's all a guessing game!

- I thought you said 0.7 per decade,... or 0.07 per year? I simply halved it because you didn't give me an error value and presented it as a conservative estimate of which I still questioned!



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Reply #144 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 5:10pm
 
The article said 0.7°C increase every year.

When you work out figures for a decade (7°C) etc it doesn’t seem realistic.
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Reply #145 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 1:22am
 
Quote:
WASHINGTON — When it splits off, the Delaware-sized chunk of ice now barely clinging to one of Antarctica’s largest ice shelves will become one of the most massive icebergs in recorded history, scientists say.

For over two years, the U.K.-based Project MIDAS has been monitoring a large, fast-moving rift in the Larsen C ice shelf, located on the northern end of the Antarctic Peninsula. On Wednesday, researchers with the European Space Agency released a detailed analysis of the soon-to-be iceberg.

Data collected from ESA’s CryoSat satellite, which measures and monitors polar ice in Greenland and Antarctica, shows the iceberg will likely have an area of more than 2,500 square miles — larger than the island of Bali in Indonesia.

It’s expected to be about 620 feet thick and contain about 277 cubic miles of ice, according to ESA. Below the surface, the iceberg could reach a depth of nearly 700 feet.

“This is a single piece which is remarkable I guess because it’s of somewhat biblical proportions,” Mark Drinkwater, head of the mission science division at ESA’s European Space Research and Technology Centre, told Mashable.

In a post to Twitter, Drinkwater said the hype around the impending separation has given rise to the term “bergxit.” 


Follow
Mark Drinkwater @kryosat
"Bergxit"- a new term capturing the hype surrounding the inevitable separation of the #LarsenC iceberg from #Antarctica ! 🕚
10:02 PM - 5 Jul 2017
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Researchers warn the iceberg will likely be so large that it could pose a risk to maritime traffic.

“Whole or in pieces, ocean currents could drag it north, even as far as the Falkland Islands,” located east of South America’s southern peninsula, Anna Hogg of the University of Leeds said in a statement. “If so it could pose a hazard for ships in Drake Passage” ― a stretch of ocean between South America’s Cape Horn and Antarctica.

At 21,000 square miles, Larsen C is the largest ice shelf in the region. In recent years, however, what started as a small fracture has moved rapidly through the frozen structure, widening to more than 1,000 feet.

During the month of December, the rift grew by more than 10 miles, followed by another 6 miles in the first few weeks of January. Between May 25 and May 31, it grew by an astounding 11 miles — over 1.5 miles per day.

Today, the fissure is over 120 miles long, and only about three miles from reaching the ocean, according to ESA’s new analysis.

“The iceberg remains attached to the ice shelf, but its outer end is moving at the highest speed ever recorded on this ice shelf,” researchers with Project MIDAS wrote in a blog post last week. “We still can’t tell when calving will occur — it could be hours, days or weeks — but this is a notable departure from previous observations.”

Project MIDAS estimates the calving event will remove more than 10 percent of the Larsen C shelf, leaving the ice at “its most retreated position ever recorded.”

Along with fundamentally changing the Antarctic Peninsula, scientists worry a break-off could destabilize the entire shelf, meaning Larsen C could be headed for a similar fate as nearby Larsen A and Larsen B, which collapsed and disintegrated in 1995 and 2002, respectively.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/larsen-c-ice-shelf-iceberg_us_595d1c68e4b...

This happened with Greenland too, the ice shelves around it disappeared and the warmer waters that melted them then started working on the glaciers at sea level, causing more ice to be lost from those glaciers. Greenland is losing 200Gtons of ice a year, if Antarctica starts losing ice like that sea level rise will accelerate again.

The bit of the shelf, once fully free won’t change sea level, but the ice calved from sea level Antarctic glaciers will.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #146 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 7:41am
 
Ice is increasing in Greenland.






Greenland Coldest Temperature Ever Recorded in Northern Hemisphere in July (409)


Published on Jul 6, 2017

Incredibly the coldest temperature ever recorded in the Northern Hemisphere was July 05, 2017 at Summit Station on GREENLAND. Additionally the mass surface ice budget is blowing away all records from the 1981-2010 averages. This was not predicted in the IPCC climate models, but all we still get are stories of microbes being unearthed in melting permafrost that will wipe out humanity. If this were true then the Nomoli figures from Sierra Leone could never have been created 17,000 years ago as it was warmer then and there would have been more microbes released from the permafrost.
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Reply #147 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:46am
 
Yes Boobhead?

Greenland nevertheless lost a huge amount of ice this NH summer. What Liar Dubyne is talking about is just the surface ice loss/gain.

I have been looking at the surface ice melt, certainly not a usual pattern. This should tell us much more about what is happening on the top of the Greenland ice sheet.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #148 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:41am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:46am:
Yes Bobby?

Greenland nevertheless lost a huge amount of ice this NH summer. What Liar Dubyne is talking about is just the surface ice loss/gain.

I have been looking at the surface ice melt, certainly not a usual pattern. This should tell us much more about what is happening on the top of the Greenland ice sheet.



Ignoreth the evidence presented unto thee with caution.
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Reply #149 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 10:04am
 
Do you know what it is evidence of?

Despite the surface mass gain Greenland continued losing ice on a massive scale.

Antarctica is about to start doing the same.

Dubyne had his arse handed to him on a plate about his Arctic “cold” rubbish, didn’t he?

I have read about algae and stuff living on the surface of melting ice. I never read any crap about it wiping out all life on earth. Dubyne is a confirmed liar.
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Reply #150 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 10:12am
 
BTW Boobhead—how old is the Summit weather station?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #151 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 11:42am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 10:04am:
Despite the surface mass gain Greenland continued losing ice on a massive scale.


Not according to your graph on the other page. Ice melt is way below normal.

Just another way that JM shows he has comprehension issues.

Bluff, Bluster and Bullshit.
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Reply #152 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 11:45am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 10:12am:
BTW Boobhead—how old is the Summit weather station?


Do you mean in its current location?

From your ref -

"Summit Station (also known as Summit Camp) is a high-altitude (10,551 feet) year-round research station in central Greenland and its exact coordinates actually can change since the ice sheet underneath is often on the move. "

But it was established in 1989.
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Reply #153 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 12:16pm
 
You answer to “Boobhead” do you? summit was actually established in 1988.

I showed there was heat, pretty close to or actually record heat/runs of hot days over nearly all the northern hemisphere to show to Boobhead that it is a funny LIA with really hot summers Smiley

Not that Boobhead read or tried to understand, of course. He is in thrall to a bullshit artist named Dubyne making obviously bullshit, lying videos.

YOU know AGW is happening but will not let yourself admit it.

I can’t decide whether you or Boobhead are the most pathetic.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #154 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:29pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 12:16pm:
I showed there was heat, pretty close to or actually record heat/runs of hot days over nearly all the northern hemisphere



And Summit confirmed that?
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Reply #155 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:46pm
 
It confirmed the heat wasn’t there all the time in every spot in the NH. Just nearly all.

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #156 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:57pm
 
Dear Jovial,
ye doth ignoreth the evidence at thy own peril.

The world is cooling - over 400 videos have proven it.
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Reply #157 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:59pm
 
Those videos are pathetic lies meant to fool pathetic, gullible idiots like yourself.

They are evidence only that people will still buy from snake oil salesmen.

The NH summer is as hot as they get pretty much everywhere. Does not look like a LIA to me or to anyone capable of thinking for themselves.
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Reply #158 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 6:35pm
 
Quote:
A team of scientists, led by the University of Bristol, has discovered that a marked decrease in summer cloud cover during the last 20 years has significantly accelerated melt from the Greenland ice sheet.

The new findings, published in Science Advances, show that less cloud cover and more summer sunshine allows increased solar radiation to reach the surface providing more energy for melting.

Using data from earth-observing satellites and high-resolution climate models, the authors found a consistent decrease in summer cloud cover since 1995.

The research shows that a one percent reduction in summer cloud cover is equivalent to 27 gigatons of extra ice melt on the Greenland ice sheet -- this is roughly equivalent to the annual domestic water supply of the USA or 180 million times the weight of a blue whale.

Since 1995, researchers found that Greenland has lost a total of about 4,000 gigatons of ice, which has become the biggest single contributor to the rise in global sea levels. PhD student, Stefan Hofer, from the University's School of Geographical Sciences and member of the Black and Bloom and GlobalMass projects is the lead author of the study.

He said: "The impact of increased sunshine during summer is large, it explains about two-thirds of Greenland's melting signal in recent decades.

"Until now we thought that the recent Greenland melt is caused almost exclusively by higher temperatures and the resulting feedbacks.

"Our study shows that there is more to the story than the local increase in temperatures and the change in cloud cover isn't just a blip, it's been happening for the last two decades. That was a big surprise."

The team also reported that climate change has found a second pathway to increase melt over Greenland, adding to the effect of higher temperatures:

Co-author Professor Jonathan Bamber, based at the University of Bristol, and President of the European Geoscience Union (EGU), added: "We are seeing changes in the large-scale circulation patterns, which leads to more frequent sunshine and higher amounts of solar energy reaching the surface of the ice sheet.

"These changes in large-scale circulation patterns during summer are especially pronounced over the Arctic and the North Atlantic.

"The state shift in atmospheric circulation is unprecedented in the observational record, which goes back as far as 1850.

"This highly unusual state of the atmosphere has been linked to record low sea ice cover during summer over the Arctic Ocean. This highlights the coupled nature of the climate system and the consequences of changes in one component on another."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170628144917.htm

I guess the low summit temperature could mean heavy cloud cover? The real story should emerge over the next few days.

Quote:
Since 1995. . .Greenland has lost a total of about 4,000 gigatons of ice


That is a lot of ice lost!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #159 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 7:24pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Dear Jovial,
ye doth ignoreth the evidence at thy own peril.

The world is cooling - over 400 videos have proven it.


shakes head.
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Reply #160 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 7:27pm
 
Pho Huc wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 7:24pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Dear Jovial,
ye doth ignoreth the evidence at thy own peril.

The world is cooling - over 400 videos have proven it.


shakes head.


Grin Grin Grin

But I know what you mean.
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Reply #161 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 6:35pm:
I guess the low summit temperature could mean heavy cloud cover?



Well higher temperatures should lead to higher evaporation, which should increase cloud cover. Wink
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Reply #162 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:11pm
 
What are you babbling on about now?
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Reply #163 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:17pm
 
Quote:
The water is everywhere.

For the second time in a month, Hawaii’s coastlines have been swamped by epic tides. The phenomenon, known as a king tide, is actually a convergence of a few different factors: high lunar tides, rising sea levels associated with last year’s strong El Niño and climate change, swirling pockets of ocean eddies, and a robust south swell—that is, big waves rolling onto south-facing shores.

King tides happen routinely in the Hawaiian Islands—a few times a year, usually—but this year’s batch have been particularly extreme. Data from federal tide stations around Hawaii show that water levels have been up to six inches above predicted tidal heights since early last year. In April, levels peaked at more than nine inches above predicted tides and broke the record high for any water level around Hawaii since 1905. Scientists say the record is likely to be broken again in 2017.

Several Honolulu roadways have been submerged. Beaches have been washed out. Beachfront hotels have canceled shorefront entertainment and readied generators. Property owners living near the coasts were told to move electronics and other valuables up to the second floor of their houses and park their cars elsewhere. People photographed fish swimming down the streets. And all around the islands, small mountains of sand have been deposited in parking lots and other strange places—spots the waves should never reach.


https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/05/the-ghost-of-climate-change-...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #164 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:57pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:00pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 6:35pm:
I guess the low summit temperature could mean heavy cloud cover?



Well higher temperatures should lead to higher evaporation, which should increase cloud cover. Wink



Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:11pm:
What are you babbling on about now?


You don't understand the "science" of AGW? Oh dear. Wink
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Reply #165 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:00pm
 
What are you babbling about?
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Reply #166 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:01pm
 
Please, let go of the bong.
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Reply #167 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 8:17pm:
For the second time in a month, Hawaii’s coastlines have been swamped by epic tides. The phenomenon, known as a king tide, is actually a convergence of a few different factors: high lunar tides, rising sea levels associated with last year’s strong El Niño and climate change, swirling pockets of ocean eddies, and a robust south swell—that is, big waves rolling onto south-facing shores.



http://sealevel.colorado.edu/content/interactive-sea-level-time-series-wizard?dl...

Yep. Really scary Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #168 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:37pm
 
With Greenland melt having accelerated and Antarctica about to start losing massive amounts of ice yeah, be a bit concerning, eh?

Now, what were you babbling about?
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Reply #169 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:37pm:
With Greenland melt having accelerated and Antarctica about to start losing massive amounts of ice yeah, be a bit concerning, eh?

Now, what were you babbling about?



Oh dear. The crystal ball again. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #170 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 10:02pm
 
What were you babbling about or have you forgotten?
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Reply #171 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 8:21am
 
A long detailed paper about satellite drift, how changes to orbit (decay) meant temperatures meant to be measured at 2.00pm got measured at 6.00pm to 8.00pm instead.

As the paper points out, temperature increase since the 1970s is of the order of 0.6°C so the decay of satellite orbits can override that signal.

The world is warming ever–faster.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/major-correction-to-satellite-data-shows-140-faster-...

And this isn’t the same as previous correction, Loser Lees.
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Reply #172 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 8:43am
 
Quote:
But no matter how well-informed you are, you are surely not alarmed enough. Over the past decades, our culture has gone apocalyptic with zombie movies and Mad Max dystopias, perhaps the collective result of displaced climate anxiety, and yet when it comes to contemplating real-world warming dangers, we suffer from an incredible failure of imagination. The reasons for that are many: the timid language of scientific probabilities, which the climatologist James Hansen once called “scientific reticence” in a paper chastising scientists for editing their own observations so conscientiously that they failed to communicate how dire the threat really was; the fact that the country is dominated by a group of technocrats who believe any problem can be solved and an opposing culture that doesn’t even see warming as a problem worth addressing; the way that climate denialism has made scientists even more cautious in offering speculative warnings; the simple speed of change and, also, its slowness, such that we are only seeing effects now of warming from decades past; our uncertainty about uttncertainty, which the climate writer Naomi Oreskes in particular has suggested stops us from preparing as though anything worse than a median outcome were even possible; the way we assume climate change will hit hardest elsewhere, not everywhere; the smallness (two degrees) and largeness (1.8 trillion tons) and abstractness (400 parts per million) of the numbers; the discomfort of considering a problem that is very difficult, if not impossible, to solve; the altogether incomprehensible scale of that problem, which amounts to the prospect of our own annihilation; simple fear. But aversion arising from fear is a form of denial, too.


Look at that last line, fits Loser Lees to a “t” does it not? Aversion, fear, denial.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-hu...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #173 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 10:51am
 
...

Global warming...  global dimming, global warming, global cooling, climate change...
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Reply #174 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:05am
 
roach must be sharing the bong with Loser Lees.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #175 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:24am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:05am:
roach must be sharing the bong with Loser Lees.

I reckon they're all drinking metho personally!

On the street arguing about who purchased the majority of the bottle etc.....
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #176 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:30am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:05am:
roach must be sharing the bong with Loser Lees.

Wassup monkeyboy?
can't refute a few simple facts? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #177 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:41am
 
What facts? So far I just see you sharing Loser Lees’ bong and posting piss–poor cartoons.
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Reply #178 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:23pm
 
World has had its second warmest March:
...
This map shows how temperatures varied from the long-term mean in March 2017. Europe and all of Russia were again much warmer than the 1951-1980 base period. Much of the United States was also relatively warm, but Alaska was cool. (Source: NASA GISS)


So much for an Ice Age, eh Booby?

Link for second warmest March:
https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/news/20170414/

Quote:
Last month was 1.12 degrees Celsius warmer than the mean March temperature from 1951-1980. The two top March temperature anomalies have occurred during the past two years.


Hmmm top two March temps: 2016 and 2017. I guess we can say there is no pause in warming. Oops.

Here is how March temperatures have changed:
...

You can see just eyeballing the graph that temperatures for March have increased significantly (i.e. any statistical test will show the probability that temperatures have not moved is vanishingly small.)

Temperature anomalies:
...

See the line of best linear fit (the green dots) and see how it continues up through the so–called pause? No pause, sorry.

So, AGW is confirmed, the pause bullshit has been busted.

Just look at that heat in West Antarctica! (that is at the bottom of the map, roach, just so you know where to find it.)

So, roach, scurry around and try and refute these facts! Like to see you try but you won’t.
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Reply #179 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:38pm
 
Anthropogenic Global Warming = A storm in a tea cup.

95% of the greenhouse effect comes from water vapour.

3.7% of the greenhouse effect comes from CO2.

Man's contribution to the CO2 is about 3%.

So you are worried about 3% of 0.0037 = 0.000111

From 0.0037 man contributes 0.000111.

CO2 molecules have a life span of about 5 years in our atmosphere.

Our history shows that there is no correlation between CO2 and temperature.

All of the CO2 increase can be attributed to the current warming and the release of natural CO2 emissions which dwarf man made emissions.

And your going to let the oligarchy (a hand full of rich men) dictate to the whole world how and when we should use our energy and how much it will cost.

Seriously when the sh!t hits the fan because of the cost and people REALLY look into it, they will think believers in AGW were just plain STUPID IDIOTS.

Wake up FFS........................ Cheesy



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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #180 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm
 
Hey Monkeyboy...  there is more truth in this cartoon than in anything you believe.
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 10:51am:
http://overpassesforamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chicken-little-global...

Global warming...  global dimming, global warming, global cooling, climate change...

You can't refute facts, just admit it.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #181 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm
 
You are wrong. Simple as that.

You have no idea as to how much CO2 we have put into the atmosphere for one.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #182 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:49pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm:
You are wrong. Simple as that.

You have no idea as to how much CO2 we have put into the atmosphere for one.

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #183 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:49pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm:
Hey Monkeyboy...  there is more truth in this cartoon than in anything you believe.
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 10:51am:
http://overpassesforamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chicken-little-global...

Global warming...  global dimming, global warming, global cooling, climate change...

You can't refute facts, just admit it.

You are an idiot, just admit it.

I post facts, you post cartoons  Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #184 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:51pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:49pm:
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm:
Hey Monkeyboy...  there is more truth in this cartoon than in anything you believe.
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 10:51am:
http://overpassesforamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chicken-little-global...

Global warming...  global dimming, global warming, global cooling, climate change...

You can't refute facts, just admit it.

You are an idiot, just admit it.

I post facts, you post cartoons  Wink

You should read them then, you'd learn more. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #185 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:53pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:49pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:48pm:
You are wrong. Simple as that.

You have no idea as to how much CO2 we have put into the atmosphere for one.

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You don’t either I suppose.

Currently CO2 is present at 410ppm. Pre Industrial Revolution there was 280ppm.

So the increase, as percent is:

(410-280) x 100/280
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Reply #186 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:55pm
 
That works out to 46%.
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Reply #187 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 2:22pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:55pm:
That works out to 46%.


But man's emissions are only 4%. Bugger that lazy 96% natural emissions not doing anything. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #188 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 3:41pm
 
No, those are our emissions added to the natural carbon cycle.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #189 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 5:55pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 3:41pm:
No, those are our emissions added to the natural carbon cycle.


The 4%? You are so right. Why does that 4% scare you and not the 96% natural emissions?
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Reply #190 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 6:26pm
 
46% of CO2 is anthropogenic, Loser Lees:

(410–280)*100/280 and all that.

46% and that is causing the globe to heat.

That is shown not just by the temperatures rising but by the spectroscopic evidence.

Oops. AGW is heating the globe.

We could stop it before the CO2 gets much higher.

Pity we have deniers swallowing fossil fuel interests’ propaganda. Truth be told, most people, like Loser Lees, Brainless Boobhead and crud like roach, ’Erbert and Frank don’t WANT to learn what is happening!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #191 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 6:54pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
46% of CO2 is anthropogenic, Loser Lees:



have you got a reference for that?  Wink

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Reply #192 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:11pm
 
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
I'm sorry but Monk is such a dipstick.
I'm thinking he's started pulling figures out of his proverbial.

You are wrong Monk.

Apologise now.
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Reply #193 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:19pm
 
(410-280)*100/280 = 46%
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Reply #194 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:24pm
 
How many times must the figures be reposted for you?

...

...

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Reply #195 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:26pm
 
Go back to PA roach. You are a waste of space and not wanted here. Go away!
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Reply #196 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:28pm
 
.
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Reply #197 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:32pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:19pm:
(410-280)*100/280 = 46%



Quote:
46% and that is causing the globe to heat.


Sorry that is simply wrong.

The Sun is causing the earth to heat.
No Sun =  Iceball Earth.  With or without CO2.

Now the piddling current amount of CO2 in the atmosphere whether or not it is "man made" or not is of no concern, when in the past the Earth has survived a much greater amount for a great many years.

The Earth is dynamic not static.

How many times must YOU be told.
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Reply #198 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:33pm
 
BUT we are not talking a dead Sun are we, idiot roach?
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Reply #199 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:33pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:26pm:
Go back to PA roach. You are a waste of space and not wanted here. Go away!

Go back to your SEWER Monkeyboy where you can talk to yourself and feel happy.

You need to stop your flaming and trolling of me and others. Roll Eyes
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Reply #200 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:33pm:
BUT we are not talking a dead Sun are we, idiot roach?

No and neither was I you idiot. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Reply #201 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:36pm
 
It was YOU mentioned a dead sun.

YOU could not argue your way out of a wet paper bag, roach, and we all know it.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #202 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:39pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:36pm:
It was YOU mentioned a dead sun.

YOU could not argue your way out of a wet paper bag, roach, and we all know it.


No you idiot.
You said CO2 was heating the globe.
I merely pointed out YOU WERE WRONG...  The Sun heats the Earth.
Greenhouse gases help regulate that heat.
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Reply #203 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:39pm
 
Oh and 1 more thing.

...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #204 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:19pm:
(410-280)*100/280 = 46%


That's the total increase in CO2 dropkick. NOT the anthropogenic portion.

"NATURAL CO2 SOURCES

Natural CO2 sources account for the majority of CO2 released into the atmosphere. Oceans provide the greatest annual amount of CO2 of any natural or anthropogenic source. Other sources of natural CO2 include animal and plant respiration, decomposition of organic matter, forest fires, and emissions from volcanic eruptions. There are also naturally occurring CO2 deposits found in rock layers within the Earth’s crust that could serve as CO2 sources."

https://www.netl.doe.gov/research/coal/carbon-storage/carbon-storage-faqs/what-a...

Or of course you could look at SKS

...

Now if you look at outgoing CO2 - it totals 800Gt.
Anthro -29Gt

29/800*100% = 3.625%

Skewered by one of your favourite sources. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #205 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm
 
Thwaites glacier is in West Antarctica where all the heating in Antarctica is going on. It has a frontage of 90Km and drains a much bigger area than the Larsen ice sheets on the Antarctic Peninsula. And it is in trouble.

Quote:
The trouble with Thwaites, which is one of the largest glaciers on the planet, is that it's also what scientists call "a threshold system." That means instead of melting slowly like an ice cube on a summer day, it is more like a house of cards: It's stable until it is pushed too far, then it collapses. When a chunk of ice the size of Pennsylvania falls apart, that's a big problem. It won't happen overnight, but if we don't slow the warming of the planet, it could happen within decades. And its loss will destabilize the rest of the West Antarctic ice, and that will go too. Seas will rise about 10 feet in many parts of the world; in New York and Boston, because of the way gravity pushes water around the planet, the waters will rise even higher, as much as 13 feet. "West Antarctica could do to the coastlines of the world what Hurricane Sandy did in a few hours to New York City," explains Richard Alley, a geologist at Penn State University and arguably the most respected ice scientist in the world. "Except when the water comes in, it doesn't go away in a few hours – it stays."


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-doomsday-glacier-w481260

That is not a hugely scientific publication but the above is entirely in accord with the views of climatologists and glaciologists quoted in articles on the Larsen C breakoff.

Maybe we are being too pessimistic? NASA thinks so:

Quote:
The melt rate of West Antarctica's Thwaites Glacier is an important concern, because this glacier alone is currently responsible for about 1 percent of global sea level rise. A new NASA study finds that Thwaites' ice loss will continue, but not quite as rapidly as previous studies have estimated.

The new study, published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, finds that numerical models used in previous studies have overestimated how rapidly ocean water is able to melt the glacier from below, leading them to overestimate the glacier's total ice loss over the next 50 years by about 7 percent.

Thwaites Glacier covers an area nearly as large as the state of Washington (70,000 square miles, or 182,000 square kilometers). Satellite measurements show that its rate of ice loss has doubled since the 1990s. The glacier has the potential to add several inches to global sea levels.

The new study is led by Helene Seroussi, a scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. It is the first to combine two computer models, one of the Antarctic ice sheet and one of the Southern Ocean, in such a way that the models interact and evolve together throughout an experiment—creating what scientists call a coupled model.
Previous modeling studies of the glacier used only an ice sheet model, with the effects of the ocean specified beforehand and unchanging.

Seroussi and colleagues at JPL and the University of California at Irvine (UCI) used an ocean model developed at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge with an ice sheet model developed at JPL and UCI. They used data from NASA's Operation Icebridge and other airborne and satellite observations, both to set up the numerical model simulations and to check how well the models reproduced observed changes.


https://phys.org/news/2017-06-thwaites-glacier-ice-loss-quickly.html#jCp

...

That is what you get when you increase the CO2 in the atmosphere by 46%.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #206 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 12:45pm
 
After mentioning Thwaites Glacier several times I noticed nobody here had the wit to actually look at it.

Whichever view point is right about the rate at which Thwaites will melt and/or collapse metres of sea level rise are locked in over the next several decades.

And Thwaites is not the only glacier in rapidly warming West Antarctica.

Something to think about.
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Reply #207 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:01pm
 
What about the West Antarctic Rift and sub-sea volcanoes? Wink
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Reply #208 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:03pm
 
Where is the Antarctic Rift, Loser Lees?

Are the volcanoes new or actually active etc?

You are proving nothing, sorry.
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Reply #209 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:14pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:03pm:
You are proving nothing, sorry.



You do that all the time and are never sorry. Grin Grin Grin

lee wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:41pm:
Now if you look at outgoing CO2 - it totals 800Gt.
Anthro -29Gt

29/800*100% = 3.625%


I notice you never responded
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Reply #210 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:16pm
 
What about the volcanoes in the Rift etc in Antarctica?

Did you notice what the study set out to do?
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Reply #211 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm
 
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.

410ppm v 280ppm.

That seems pretty clear, not? Going to quibble with that?

Going to quibble that the extra CO2 is not heating the earth? It is, you know.
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Reply #212 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 2:17pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.



Your claim was that it was all anthropogenic. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #213 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 2:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.

410ppm v 280ppm.

That seems pretty clear, not? Going to quibble with that?

Going to quibble that the extra CO2 is not heating the earth? It is, you know.



The logarithmic effect of CO2


...


Quote:

Throw more carbon up there and most of the extra gas is just “unemployed” molecules.


http://joannenova.com.au/2010/02/4-carbon-dioxide-is-already-absorbing-almost-al...

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #214 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:04pm
 
JoNova is a paid denier shill publishing Heartland Institute obfuscation and false science.

That histogram is very misleading.

In any case, the more CO2 the more AGW.

How do you explain Venus, Ajax? It is closer to the sun, yes, but the temperature on Venus is FAR higher than the extra insolation compared to Earth can explain. The reason—the high CO2 content in the atmosphere of Venus.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #215 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:04pm:
JoNova is a paid denier shill publishing Heartland Institute obfuscation and false science.

That histogram is very misleading.

In any case, the more CO2 the more AGW.

How do you explain Venus, Ajax? It is closer to the sun, yes, but the temperature on Venus is FAR higher than the extra insolation compared to Earth can explain. The reason—the high CO2 content in the atmosphere of Venus.


Venus's atmosphere is 55.8 times denser than Earths.

Atmospheric Pressure on  Earth = 1 bar

Atmospheric Pressure on  Venus = 93 bar

Density of air on Earth = 1.2kg/m³

Density of air on Venus = 67kg/m³

67 / 1.2 = 55.8

It wouldn't matter which gas ruled Venus.

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #216 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:20pm
 
It is still the CO2 that did it. All the carbonate rocks—gave up their carbon. That is why the atmosphere is so dense.

If the CO2 left the Venusian atmosphere—the planet would cool down.

All standard denier fare, none of it with any truth behind it.

The more CO2 the more warming we will get. The increments may be smaller but the temperature*still*increments*

Not is CO2 the only GHG. Methane and nitrous oxide are entering the atmosphere and they have 30 and 200 times the greenhouse potential of CO2.

A man faces unpleasant truths, does not hide or run away from them.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #217 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:27pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.

410ppm v 280ppm.

That seems pretty clear, not? Going to quibble with that?

Going to quibble that the extra CO2 is not heating the earth? It is, you know.

LOL
Arguing correlation = causation again eh....  you alarmists just never let up on it do you?
But wait didn't I read somewhere you denied it? Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #218 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 4:02pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:04pm:
JoNova is a paid denier shill publishing Heartland Institute obfuscation and false science.



Got a reference for that? Or is it another of your famous "facts"?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #219 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 12:53pm
 
Another large aggressive wild fire, this time in California:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/19/538090510/-extreme-and-aggress...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #220 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 12:56pm
 
First half of 2017 was the second hottest recorded:

Quote:
At the halfway point of the year, 2017 remains the second-hottest year to date — a surprise given the demise of the El Niño that helped boost temperatures to record levels last year.

The continued near-record warmth is a marker of just how much global temperatures have risen thanks to the greenhouse gases accumulating in the atmosphere from fossil fuel use. . . .

The odds are good that 2017 will stay in second place through the end of the year, and it is even more likely that it will remain in at least the top three hottest years.

NOAA released its global temperature data for June on Tuesday, and ranked June as the third warmest in its records. The four warmest Junes in its records have all happened in the past four years. (NASA, which released its June numbers on Friday, ranked June as the fourth hottest. The two agencies handle the data slightly differently, which can lead to small differences in their rankings, though they strongly agree on recent warming.)




...

http://grist.org/article/the-first-half-of-2017-was-the-second-hottest-to-date/

No sign of an ice age is there, Booby?

The next El Nino year promises to be a right bastard!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #221 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:00pm
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/world-heritage-coral-reefs-likely-to-disappe...

Quote:
Last month, UNESCO released the first global scientific assessment of climate change impacts on World Heritage coral reefs. While international media has regularly reported on bleaching at the Great Barrier Reef, we knew that was just the tip of the iceberg. The El Nino and climate-fueled temperature spikes that were wiping out corals in Australia were also causing serious damage to reefs in Costa Rica, Mexico, France, the United States, the Philippines, and the Seychelles. And that is just the beginning of the story.

It only takes a spike of 1 to 2 degrees to threaten the health of coral reefs. As seawater heats up, coral animals expel the microscopic algae they rely on for energy. If heat stress lasts too long, and corals don’t reabsorb the algae, they can die. Reefs can recover from bleaching, but it takes 15 to 25 years, and with climate change causing more frequent heat waves, we are approaching the breaking point of these fragile systems.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #222 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:31pm
 
Oh, No huffpo, that great scientific publication.  Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
It only takes a spike of 1 to 2 degrees to threaten the health of coral reefs


Yes. If fast enough. A sudden upward spike or downward spike will cause bleaching.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
The El Nino and climate-fueled temperature spikes that were wiping out corals in Australia


There is no comeback from a wipe out. Just a trifle emotive. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #223 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:36pm
 
Not with AGW making the seas hotter and hotter.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #224 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:16pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.

410ppm v 280ppm.

That seems pretty clear, not? Going to quibble with that?

Going to quibble that the extra CO2 is not heating the earth? It is, you know.

here we go again with just another of Monks empty headed tactic...  he denies it of course.

CORRELATION EQUALS CAUSATION....


Sure it does Monk.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I don't recall saying Correlation vs Causation.
If ever I do it will be a typo.

I'm guessing you don't know what you are saying so other peoples comments leave you even more lost. Smiley

Oh and I was right again...  you denied it again.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #225 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:36pm:
Not with AGW making the seas hotter and hotter.

yeah yeah everyday I look out to sea at all that boiling water Cheesy
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Reply #226 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:22pm
 
No, roach, since the mechanism is known it is not correlation v causation.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #227 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:22pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:36pm:
Not with AGW making the seas hotter and hotter.

yeah yeah everyday I look out to sea at all that boiling water Cheesy


Heard what is happening to coral reefs the world over?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #228 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:28pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:17pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:36pm:
Not with AGW making the seas hotter and hotter.

yeah yeah everyday I look out to sea at all that boiling water Cheesy

Lol, you are a unit!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #229 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:31pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
There is 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere pre industrial revolution.

410ppm v 280ppm.

That seems pretty clear, not? Going to quibble with that?

Going to quibble that the extra CO2 is not heating the earth? It is, you know.

LOL
Arguing correlation = causation again eh....  you alarmists just never let up on it do you?
But wait didn't I read somewhere you denied it? Grin Grin Grin

Grendel has nothing, again  Cheesy
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #230 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 10:52am
 
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3351.epdf?referrer_access_token=2mYD3Xh3...

Extreme El Nino/La Nina events to increase even if we keep global temperature increase to 1.5°C. Need to do more,
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #231 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 11:05am
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/resurrecting-ancient-wines-that-can-survive-...

Spanish wine industry turning to old grape varieties to find  grapes that can cope with the extra heat from AGW to produce wines that are sound and balanced, fruit v acidity etc.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #232 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:26pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 10:52am:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3351.epdf?referrer_access_token=2mYD3Xh3...

Extreme El Nino/La Nina events to increase even if we keep global temperature increase to 1.5°C. Need to do more,


Oh. The models. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #233 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:27pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:26pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 10:52am:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3351.epdf?referrer_access_token=2mYD3Xh3...

Extreme El Nino/La Nina events to increase even if we keep global temperature increase to 1.5°C. Need to do more,


Oh. The models. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

lee couldn't stand a world that uses models  Grin Grin Grin

...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #234 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:27pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 11:05am:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/resurrecting-ancient-wines-that-can-survive-...

Spanish wine industry turning to old grape varieties to find  grapes that can cope with the extra heat from AGW to produce wines that are sound and balanced, fruit v acidity etc.


You mean the old grape varieties lived in a time of higher temperatures? Oh NOOOOO. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #235 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:31pm
 
Time or place of higher temperatures.

Why, Lees, you aren’t saying temperatures have to be constant are you?

But wineries are also moving to cooler areas and planting new vineyards: UK and Tasmania. That will work until and if we allow AGW to just spiral out of control.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #236 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:44pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:27pm:
lee couldn't stand a world that uses models



Ah, Bill Nye. The science NOT guy who once famously made a video of westerly trade winds. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Check this out at about the 1min mark -


And his high school physics experiment that didn't work.
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« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:53pm by lee »  
 
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #237 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:47pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
Why, Lees, you aren’t saying temperatures have to be constant are you?



No JM. But old varieties strongly suggests a change in climate. But according to you climate change/AGW is a new beastie on the block. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #238 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:01pm
 
Now you are being silly, again.

Changing to new varieties (remember me talking about Fiano grapes??) or new areas for winegrapes is only going to take them that far, eventually AGW will mean winemaking isn’t feasible.

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Reply #239 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:03pm
 
Wildfires in SE France. (ABC News)

Gee, lots of wildfires lately, eh? Reckon AGW has something to do with it.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #240 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:14pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Changing to new varieties



But you said -

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 11:05am:
Spanish wine industry turning to old grape varieties


So old is new again. Hallelujah and pass the port.
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Reply #241 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:15pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:03pm:
Wildfires in SE France. (ABC News)


Wow. In summer. Who woudda thunk.

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #242 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:17pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:47pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
Why, Lees, you aren’t saying temperatures have to be constant are you?



No JM. But old varieties strongly suggests a change in climate. But according to you climate change/AGW is a new beastie on the block. Wink

No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy



No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy




No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

No one ever said climate never changed before: you're all strawmen buddy!

Cheesy Cheesy

It's about the rate of change,... another billion page circle jerk- climate deniers just hate their kids full stop end of story! They don't call them the blue-bloods for nothing!    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


Roll Eyes

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #243 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 2:42pm
 
Yeah.

Also different cause. Also—already gone further in warming and no end in sight.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #244 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 3:46pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 2:42pm:
Yeah.

Also different cause. Also—already gone further in warming and no end in sight.



What different cause?
Already gone further than what?
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Reply #245 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 3:47pm
 
AGW has pushed global temps higher than they were in the MWP.
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Reply #246 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 3:52pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 3:47pm:
AGW has pushed global temps higher than they were in the MWP.


Before or after adjustment of the MWP?
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Reply #247 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 4:20pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:17pm:
It's about the rate of change,



Phil Jones CRU -

"Temperature data for the period 1860-1880 are more uncertain, because of sparser coverage, than for later periods in the 20th Century. The 1860-1880 period is also only 21 years in length. As for the two periods 1910-40 and 1975-1998 the warming rates are not statistically significantly different (see numbers below).

I have also included the trend over the period 1975 to 2009, which has a very similar trend to the period 1975-1998.

So, in answer to the question, the warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other.

Here are the trends and significances for each period:
Period          Length Trend 
                                 (Degrees C per decade)      Significance
1860-1880      21       0.163                                             Yes      
1910-1940      31       0.15                                             Yes
1975-1998      24       0.166                                             Yes
1975-2009      35      0.161      Yes"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8511670.stm

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Reply #248 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 4:42pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 4:20pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:17pm:
It's about the rate of change,



Phil Jones CRU -

"Temperature data for the period 1860-1880 are more uncertain, because of sparser coverage, than for later periods in the 20th Century. The 1860-1880 period is also only 21 years in length. As for the two periods 1910-40 and 1975-1998 the warming rates are not statistically significantly different (see numbers below).

I have also included the trend over the period 1975 to 2009, which has a very similar trend to the period 1975-1998.

So, in answer to the question, the warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other.

Here are the trends and significances for each period:
Period          Length Trend 
                                 (Degrees C per decade)      Significance
1860-1880      21       0.163                                             Yes      
1910-1940      31       0.15                                             Yes
1975-1998      24       0.166                                             Yes
1975-2009      35      0.161      Yes"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8511670.stm


What year was that article?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #249 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:15pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 4:42pm:
What year was that article?


Go to the link and find out.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #250 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:27pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 2:42pm:
Yeah.

Also different cause. Also—already gone further in warming and no end in sight.

...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #251 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:40pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:15pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 4:42pm:
What year was that article?


Go to the link and find out.

You don't think I did that  Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #252 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:42pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 2:42pm:
Yeah.

Also different cause. Also—already gone further in warming and no end in sight.

http://epaabuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/chickenlittle1.jpg

Do you know how many versions of that story there are?

--> Probably not because grendel has no idea about anything  Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #253 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:51pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
You don't think I did that 


Well then why ask?

Did you think that the date had some impact on the metrics he produced?
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Reply #254 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:08pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:51pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
You don't think I did that 


Well then why ask?

Did you think that the date had some impact on the metrics he produced?

I'm saying the Arctic sea ice has only really got bad in the last ten years!

That's the real thermometer  Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #255 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:38pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:14pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Changing to new varieties



But you said -

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 11:05am:
Spanish wine industry turning to old grape varieties


So old is new again. Hallelujah and pass the port.

I hear the Romans were growing grapes in Britain during the warmer times back then...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #256 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:42pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:08pm:
I'm saying the Arctic sea ice has only really got bad in the last ten years!


Unlike when they sailed across the Arctic in 1878 or 1906.

Or the 1920-40's
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #257 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:38pm:
I hear the Romans were growing grapes in Britain during the warmer times back then...



And growing olives in Northern Italy and Germany - According to one Michael E Mann.

"Grapes were grown in England several hundred kilometers
north  of  their  current  limits  of  growth,  and  subtropical
flora  such  as  fig  trees  and  olive  trees  grew  in  regions
of  Europe  (northern  Italy  and  parts  of  Germany)  well
north  of  their  current  range.  Geological  evidence  indi-
cates  that  mountain  glaciers  throughout  Europe  retreated
substantially at this time, relative to the glacial advances of
later  centuries  (Grove  and  Switsur,  1994).  A  host  of  his-
torical  documentary  proxy  information  such  as  records  of
frost dates, freezing of water bodies, duration of snowcover,
and  phenological  evidence  (e.g.,  the  dates  of  flowering
of  plants)  indicates  that  severe  winters  were  less  frequent
and  less  extreme  at  times  during  the  period  from  about
900 – 1300 AD in central Europe."

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/shared/articles/medclimopt.pdf
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Reply #258 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm
 
Quote:
Tree-rings prove climate was WARMER in Roman and Medieval times than it is now - and world has been cooling for 2,000 years

By Science Reporter

Study of semi-fossilised trees gives accurate climate reading back to 138BC.  The world was warmer in Roman and Medieval times than it is now

Rings in fossilised pine trees have proven that the world was much warmer than previously thought - with measurements dating back to 138BC

How did the Romans grow grapes in northern England? Perhaps because it was warmer than we thought.

A study suggests the Britain of 2,000 years ago experienced a lengthy period of hotter summers than today.

German researchers used data from tree rings – a key indicator of past climate – to claim the world has been on a ‘long-term cooling trend’ for two millennia until the global warming of the twentieth century.

This cooling was punctuated by a couple of warm spells.

These are the Medieval Warm Period, which is well known, but also a period during the toga-wearing Roman times when temperatures were apparently 1 deg C warmer than now.

They say the very warm period during the years 21 to 50AD has been underestimated by climate scientists.

Lead author Professor Dr Jan Esper of Johannes Gutenberg University in Mainz said: ‘We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low.

‘This figure we calculated may not seem particularly significant, however it is not negligible when compared to global warming, which up to now has been less than 1 deg C.’

In general the scientists found a slow cooling of 0.6C over 2,000 years, which they attributed to changes in the Earth’s orbit which took it further away from the Sun.

The study is published in Nature Climate Change.


It is based on measurements stretching back to 138BC.

The finding may force scientists to rethink current theories of the impact of global warming

Professor Esper's group at the Institute of Geography at JGU used tree-ring density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees originating from Finnish Lapland to produce a reconstruction reaching back to 138 BC.

In so doing, the researchers have been able for the first time to precisely demonstrate that the long-term trend over the past two millennia has been towards climatic cooling.

Professor Esper said: 'Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy, as they will influence the way today's climate changes are seen in context of historical warm periods.’

The annual growth rings in trees are the most important witnesses over the past 1,000 to 2,000 years as they indicate how warm and cool past climate conditions were.

Researchers from Germany, Finland, Scotland, and Switzerland examined tree-ring density profiles.

In the cold environment of Finnish Lapland, trees often collapse into one of the numerous lakes, where they remain well preserved for thousands of years.

Global cooling: It is the first time that researchers have been able to accurately measure trends in global temperature over the last two millennia

The annual growth rings in trees are the most important witnesses over the past 1,000 to 2,000 years as they indicate how warm and cool past climate conditions were

The density measurements correlate closely with the summer temperatures in this area on the edge of the Nordic taiga; the researchers were thus able to create a temperature reconstruction of unprecedented quality.

The reconstruction provides a high-resolution representation of temperature patterns in the Roman and Medieval Warm periods, but also shows the cold phases that occurred during the Migration Period and the later Little Ice Age.

In addition to the cold and warm phases, the new climate curve also exhibits a phenomenon that was not expected in this form.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2171973/Tree-ring-study-proves-climate-WARMER-Roman-Medieval-times-modern-industrial-age.html#ixzz4nyKQ5w7b
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #259 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:43pm
 
Gas molecules made of three or more atoms are “greenhouse gases” that are partially opaque to infrared radiation. IR has a wavelength a bit longer than light. We know the band of visible light can be subdivided into 7 sub-bands corresponding to the colors red, orange, yellow. . .violet and IR also stretches out over a band of wavelengths.

Radiation can be thought of as little packets of electromagnetic energy called a photon, or you can think of it as a ray but I will use the term photon. Now I will just use CO2 but CH4 and N2O etc works the same way. Let us write CO2 as OCO and the electric charge (density in the electron cloud) is distributed between the CO and the OC dipoles.

In the Relationships board, LarsenC thread the second post describes all this in more detail. Imagine an OCO molecule floating around when it absorbs (gets hit by) a photon at the OC or CO dipole. The OCO molecule is “excited” or made more energetic, spinning/vibrating at a more rapid rate but it cannot hold on to the energy and re-emits the photon a fraction of a second after absorbing it. By this time the dipole that re-emits the photon may be facing any direction and the IR photon can be re-emitted as likely downwards as upwards.

The photon may be absorbed by another and another molecule of one of the GHGs present in the atmosphere. Whatever IR got re-emitted downwards reaches the surface of the globe, strikes a molecule on the surface which is excited but being a solid or liquid strikes adjacent molecules and the energy of the photon is absorbed. The surface just got heated by the amount of the energy of that photon.

Now, you are thinking “this is rubbish, don’t believe it!” but studies of the IR spectrum from the ground show it receives more IR over time while studies from satellites show less IR reaching satellites over time. Over time more and more GHGs are present in the atmosphere, IR photons are absorbed/emitted more and more and more and more IR is absorbed by the surface.

Look at the Harries diagram. It shows that over a period of time less and less IR reaches as high as the satellite (the brightness temperature or blackbody temperature measured as IR brightness) and it even shows the two bands, the OC and the CO of CO2.

Watervapor, which we can write as H–O–H, is a three atom gaseous molecule and so, yup, is a GHG. It is usually called a reinforcer because, unlike CO2, CH4 etc its concentration varies as evaporation-precipitation (rain etc)–evaporation etc. CH4 is relatively shortlived but is much more constant than H2O, taking decades before it is oxidised to other compounds.

The theory and observation fits very well. Only Booby might say the global temperatures are declining but we know they are not. If 2018 is an El Nino year god knows what temperatures we see.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #260 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:58pm
 
A three-peat. A new world record. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #261 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 2:28pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:42pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 27th, 2017 at 6:08pm:
I'm saying the Arctic sea ice has only really got bad in the last ten years!


Unlike when they sailed across the Arctic in 1878 or 1906.

Or the 1920-40's

Which route did they take or should we all just get really vague and fall asleep at the snap of a finger like daddy used to make you try and do?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #262 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 4:01pm
 
Quote:
Only Booby might say the global temperatures are declining but we know they are not. If 2018 is an El Nino year god knows what temperatures we see.

Yet YOU continually say YOU and YOUR fellow deniers know...  their models don't.  Their fudged records and fraudulent behaviour prove they don't. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #263 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 6:53pm
 
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 28th, 2017 at 2:28pm:
Which route did they take or should we all just get really vague



What difference does it matter? Are there suddenly two, three or more Arctics that are melting more than normal and allowing ship passage?

"Gjøa was the first vessel to transit the Northwest Passage. With a crew of six, Roald Amundsen traversed the passage in a three-year journey, finishing in 1906."

" He had a 13 horsepower single-screw marine paraffin motor installed (she had hitherto been propelled only by sail, and had proved to be sluggish). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gj%C3%B8a

13 horses? Such power. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #264 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:06pm
 
Quote:
Ship sets record for earliest crossing of notorious Northwest Passage through Arctic



The melting of sea ice means a journey that claims the lives of numerous explorers in the past is getting easier and easier


Easier and easier. No longer takes three years?

Quote:
A Finnish ship has set the record for the earliest crossing of the notorious Northwest Passage, the Arctic route between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Icebreaker MSV Nordica was at sea for 24 days, travelling more than 6,214 miles to make the record.

It arrived at Nuuk, the capital of Greenland, on 29 July, having set off from Vancouver, Canada on 5 July, the Associated Press reported.

The previous record was set by Canadian Coast Guard ship Louis L. St-Laurent in 2008. It arrived in Point Barrow, off Alaska, on 30 July, having also set off on 5 July from Newfoundland.

But the route the Nordica travelled, in the opposite direction, was even longer.

Passengers on board the Nordica reported seeing sea birds, seals, whales and a polar bear.

Ships have been able to make the journey earlier in recent years because of a reduction in Arctic sea ice, which scientists believe is one of the clearest symptoms of climate change on the planet.

Icebreaker-type ships tend to be the only vessels which can make the journey, with conventional crafts struggling in the Arctic environment.


Except a huge flipping cruise ship made the journey through the North West Passage last year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/northwest-passage-record-arctic...

Earlier and earlier, easier and easier. Doesn’t sound like an ice age to me!
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Reply #265 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:26pm
 
Really?
Do you actually know what you are on about?
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Reply #266 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:34pm
 
Yes, the extent and volume of ice in the Arctic is shrinking.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #267 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:36pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 28th, 2017 at 6:53pm:
TheFunPolice wrote on Jul 28th, 2017 at 2:28pm:
Which route did they take or should we all just get really vague



What difference does it matter? Are there suddenly two, three or more Arctics that are melting more than normal and allowing ship passage?

"Gjøa was the first vessel to transit the Northwest Passage. With a crew of six, Roald Amundsen traversed the passage in a three-year journey, finishing in 1906."

" He had a 13 horsepower single-screw marine paraffin motor installed (she had hitherto been propelled only by sail, and had proved to be sluggish). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gj%C3%B8a

13 horses? Such power. Grin Grin Grin Grin

How long did it take?
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Reply #268 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:38pm
 
It wouldn’t take 3 years now even for a 13HP ship.
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Reply #269 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:38pm:
It wouldn’t take 3 years now even for a 13HP ship.

Lees just getting paid to sell jevons paradox yet doesn't realise it applies to all resources  Grin
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Reply #270 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:34pm:
Yes, the extent and volume of ice in the Arctic is shrinking.

Ignoring the diagrams of those 2 consecutive years of Greenland and the Arctic where you alarmists were crapping on about Ice loss before eh.
How convenient your memory is so appalling. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Reply #271 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 5:44pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 1:38pm:
It wouldn’t take 3 years now even for a 13HP ship.


No? Of course the ships these says are longer than 70 feet. Have modern navigation aids. Have icebreaker escorts.
So what size motor would you put in them?

"However, a Chinese shipping line is planning regular voyages of cargo ships using the passage to the eastern United States and Europe, after a successful passage by Nordic Orion of 73,500 tonnes deadweight tonnage in September 2013."

Source : wiki

Nordic Orion 738 feet.

"On the flip side, however, when ships move at slower speeds with higher variability in engine load, they produce more particulate emissions—like black carbon—since the engine is operating below its optimum combustion efficiency. "

http://www.marineinsight.com/green-shipping/arctic-sea-shipping-emissions-matter...

Oh DEAR.

But please feel free to prove me wrong and dot it yourself in a wooden boat powered by a 13HP engine. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #272 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 5:51pm
 
Even a 13hp boat would not take 3 years to navigate the NW Passage now.

Why not think about that for a minute?
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Reply #273 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 6:03pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 5:51pm:
Even a 13hp boat would not take 3 years to navigate the NW Passage now.

Why not think about that for a minute?


That is an assertion. Something you are quite good at. Now show it somehow. Take that trip you know you want to.
Or are you trippin' already?

Are the conditions exactly the same now as then? You haven't even looked at what conditions were like then.
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Reply #274 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 6:17pm
 
Thinking not your thing? I thought as much.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #275 - Jul 31st, 2017 at 6:29pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 6:17pm:
Thinking not your thing? I thought as much.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 at 6:17pm:
Thinking not your thing? I thought as much.


You didn't think. It must be that Alzheimer's.
First you have to predict the next two years ice. But your crystal ball should tell you that. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #276 - Aug 1st, 2017 at 11:45am
 
JM has now added master mariner and polar navigator to his vast list of attributes. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #277 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 6:33pm
 
As the globe warms and the tropics get wetter you would expect mosquito borne diseases to spread and hit more people. Yup:

Quote:
Researchers are using the unprecedented outbreak to study the emerging disease in real time. And they’re uncovering lessons that could buy time for health officials to mobilize a response to mosquito-borne disease before another outbreak occurs.

Beard explained that Zika infections, like almost all diseases spread by mosquitoes, hinge on two variables: infected hosts and capable carriers.

For Zika to spread, a mosquito that’s able to carry the virus has to bite a person already carrying it. The virus then needs enough time to reproduce inside the mosquito. The insect then has to bite an uninfected person. Health officials have also found that the virus can be spread sexually.

This means that people are key to spreading the disease across borders and oceans—not just mosquitoes.

“The virus was introduced by infected travelers returning to the United States from an area with active Zika transmission,” Beard said. “Because this was the first global outbreak of Zika virus, virtually everyone in the United States (and globally) had not been infected and was therefore susceptible to infection.”

Predicting human behavior is difficult, so some scientists focused on the mosquito.
The number of Aedes mosquitoes rises and falls depending on temperature and rainfall, so researchers reasoned that climate variables could portend their spread.
In a paper published earlier this month in the journal Frontiers in Microbiology, researchers asked, “Could the recent zika epidemic have been predicted?”

The short answer is no.

However, they used climate data from afflicted regions to build a model for Aedes populations. That helped researchers highlight potential infection hot spots for mosquito-borne disease transmission one to three months in advance.

“Both the mosquitos that transmit Zika and the virus itself are climate-sensitive,” said co-author Ángel Muñoz, a postdoctoral research associate in atmospheric and oceanic science at Princeton University, in an email.

“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.


http://www.eenews.net/
(reprinted by Scientific American)
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #278 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 6:33pm:
Beard explained that Zika infections, like almost all diseases spread by mosquitoes, hinge on two variables: infected hosts and capable carriers.



"Aedes is a genus of mosquitoes originally found in tropical and subtropical zones, but now found on all continents except Antarctica. "

source: Wiki

People travel. They will be the carriers. The mosquitoes are already established,we're doomed. Wink
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Reply #279 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:12pm
 
Still the mosquitoes doing to most damage and there are other mosquito–borne diseases.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #280 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:31pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:12pm:
Still the mosquitoes doing to most damage and there are other mosquito–borne diseases.


yep. malaria - supposedly a tropical disease in 15th - 19th century Britain. During the LIA.
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Reply #281 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 8:14pm
 
Mosquito and their borne diseases apparently are all transferred by climate according to Monk.
That's a newy... even for you Monk.
Recent outbreaks were due to infected insects and humans travelling from other countries.  A mosquito bites an infected person and continues the cycle.

Did you mention that I must have missed it.
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Reply #282 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 8:21pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:00pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 6:33pm:
Beard explained that Zika infections, like almost all diseases spread by mosquitoes, hinge on two variables: infected hosts and capable carriers.



"Aedes is a genus of mosquitoes originally found in tropical and subtropical zones, but now found on all continents except Antarctica. "

source: Wiki

People travel. They will be the carriers. The mosquitoes are already established,we're doomed. Wink

7.51
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Reply #283 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:04am
 
Quote:
“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.

Since Zika is a new disease in the Americas, it’s still too early to tell whether it will follow in the footsteps of its cousins or forge its own path through the Americas or around the world.
“The model is not going to differentiate whether it’s Zika or dengue or chikungunya,” Thomson said. “It’s just telling you that transmission suitability is up.”

She added that the key to filling in the blanks with infection forecasts is better data, getting more granular information over smaller regions and measuring over different time scales.
As the climate changes and humanity becomes more mobile across the planet, health officials are bracing for viruses like Zika to take root in new environs and for new infections to emerge in its wake.

“We are seeing an accelerated threat from mosquito-borne diseases overall,” said the CDC’s Beard. “Over the past few decades, we have seen a resurgence of dengue and the introduction of West Nile, chikungunya, and now Zika virus into the Western Hemisphere.”
“It is very hard to determine which one might come next—Zika virus wasn’t on anyone’s radar screen before it became an international threat,” he added. “What we do know is that in this age of globalization, more will be coming—we just don’t know from where or when.”


http://www.eenews.net/
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #284 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 9:30am
 
A history of climate science:

https://skepticalscience.com/history-climate-science.html

Reading the comments, there is a book on the history of climate science:

The Discovery of Global Warming: Revised and Expanded Edition (New Histories of Science, Technology, and Medicine) 2nd Edition
by Spencer R. Weart  (Author)


Reckon I will order that!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #285 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:15pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 9:30am:
A history of climate science:

https://skepticalscience.com/history-climate-science.html

Reading the comments, there is a book on the history of climate science:

The Discovery of Global Warming: Revised and Expanded Edition (New Histories of Science, Technology, and Medicine) 2nd Edition
by Spencer R. Weart  (Author)


Reckon I will order that!


JV how can you quote skepticalscience when its founder was busted for fraudulent paper about the consensus.

Your reasoning for a scientist is faulty at best.

...

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/cooks-97-scam-debunked/
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Reply #286 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 6:49pm
 
I just read the information the site provides, the papers it links to.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #287 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 9:01pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 6:49pm:
I just read the information the site provides, the papers it links to.



But that's a BLOG. According to you BLOGS are bad. Wink
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Reply #288 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:39pm
 
It links to the scientific papers.

From it, the Harries and the Feldman papers which really make it impossible to deny AGW.

A blog just expressing a personal opinion—different kettle of fish. There are good ones and bad ones. Andrew Elder and John Menadue write pretty good blogs on politics.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #289 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 11:11am
 
John Menadue? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Reply #290 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 12:22pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:39pm:
It links to the scientific papers.



You mean like Watts links to scientific papers,  notrickszone links to scientific papers, etc? Wink

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #291 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 9:30pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:39pm:
It links to the scientific papers.

From it, the Harries and the Feldman papers which really make it impossible to deny AGW.

A blog just expressing a personal opinion—different kettle of fish. There are good ones and bad ones. Andrew Elder and John Menadue write pretty good blogs on politics.

But....  JONOVA or WUWT etc,etc,etc  YOU IGNORE such things there. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Reply #292 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:39pm:
It links to the scientific papers.

From it, the Harries and the Feldman papers which really make it impossible to deny AGW.

A blog just expressing a personal opinion—different kettle of fish. There are good ones and bad ones. Andrew Elder and John Menadue write pretty good blogs on politics.

you are unbanned from the tavern monk- i cant pm you so this is your pm
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x=^..^= x <o((((>< ~~~ x=^..^=x~~~x=^..^=x<o((((><~~~x=^..^=x


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Reply #293 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 3:12pm
 
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/08/11/dr-judith-curry-explains-the-reality-of-b...

Quote:
Dr. Judith Curry conducted an interview with YouTube which was published on August 9, 2017 where she clearly lays out the many flaws and failures of “consensus” climate science and how this highly politicalized scheme tremendously misleads policy makers regarding the need for government directed climate actions.


Etc, etc, etc.....
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Reply #294 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am
 
Judith Curry


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


...

We know that GHGs—molecules with 3 or more atoms, 2 or more dipoles—can absorb IR radiation at specific frequencies then re-emit the IR along the other dipole. The re-emission can be downward as often as it is upwards.

Thus experiments by Harries using satellite spectrometers show less IR radiation heading to space while the Feldman measurements on the north slope of Alaska and another location show more IR radiation returning to the surface. This IR radiation blocked from leaving the atmosphere heats the surface.

...

The measurements of CO2 are so sensitive they show the yearly carbon cycle. The amounts of IR returned to the surface vary directly with the amount of CO2.

There really is no room to deny that AGW is real.

I am sure everybody here has touched a rock or a brick wall etc after a long hot day. The rock or the wall or whatever is still warm. In a solid object not made of metal heat cannot be conducted or convected away. The solid object, the surface of the earth, can only radiate excess heat away.

We cannot see a wall in the absence of visible light so the radiation is in the infrared band. In this band of EM radiation greenhouse gases like water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide can absorb and re-emit IR radiation at specific frequencies for each molecule, save water vapor and carbon dioxide have absorption bands that partly overlap.

Water vapor, when present in the atmosphere leaves but a small window in the IR band and the other GHGs close that window further. Our wall or rock or the surface of the earth cannot lose all the heat, some gets radiated back to the surface, heating it.

The result is the rise of temperatures we have seen since the Industrial Revolution, fossil fuel burning, took off.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #295 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:23pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
The measurements of CO2 are so sensitive they show the yearly carbon cycle. The amounts of IR returned to the surface vary directly with the amount of CO2.



So explain the warming in previous periods, when it is postulated by you alarmists that CO2 was down to between 190 and 270pmm.

And you just hate Judith Curry because she was once on the board of Climate Alarmism Inc. Now she is merely a lukewarmer. That's why you resort to ad homs. Nothing but space between your ears.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
There really is no room to deny that AGW is real.


You're getting there. Now all you have to do is prove the AGW component. And its extent. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
I am sure everybody here has touched a rock or a brick wall etc after a long hot day. The rock or the wall or whatever is still warm. In a solid object not made of metal heat cannot be conducted or convected away. The solid object, the surface of the earth, can only radiate excess heat away.


You have discovered UHI. Hooray. Now how do you eliminate the UHI component from carparks, roadways, buildings?

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
We cannot see a wall in the absence of visible light so the radiation is in the infrared band. In this band of EM radiation greenhouse gases like water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide can absorb and re-emit IR radiation at specific frequencies for each molecule, save water vapor and carbon dioxide have absorption bands that partly overlap.



Yep. And you notice Harries doesn't show water vapour? We just have to accept at face value that it is just outside the band they show. Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
Water vapor, when present in the atmosphere


Breaking news. JM finds there are times that the atmosphere has no water vapour.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
The result is the rise of temperatures we have seen since the Industrial Revolution, fossil fuel burning, took off.


Pure speculation. But keep trying. Grin Grin Grin Grin


So tell us with all this AGW how the Greenland Ice Sheet has expanded by about 500Gton. How some Karakoram glaciers are expanding.

Are you now trying to tell us AGW is not GLOBAL? Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #296 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:23pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
The measurements of CO2 are so sensitive they show the yearly carbon cycle. The amounts of IR returned to the surface vary directly with the amount of CO2.



So explain the warming in previous periods, when it is postulated by you alarmists that CO2 was down to between 190 and 270pmm.

And I thought you were so keen on natural variation  Wink Orbital peturbations, lack of volcanic activity, solar cycle etc. As you know, the sun is relatively quiescent since the 1980s, imagine global temps when an active sun adds to AGW.


And you just hate Judith Curry because she was once on the board of Climate Alarmism Inc. Now she is merely a lukewarmer. That's why you resort to ad homs. Nothing but space between your ears.

Judy Curry talks bullshit.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
There really is no room to deny that AGW is real.


You're getting there. Now all you have to do is prove the AGW component. And its extent. Wink

I have described how AGW works, have shown the 46% of increase in atmospheric CO2 and that isotopic analysis shows that the extra CO2 is anthropogenic.

So AGW is proven.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
I am sure everybody here has touched a rock or a brick wall etc after a long hot day. The rock or the wall or whatever is still warm. In a solid object not made of metal heat cannot be conducted or convected away. The solid object, the surface of the earth, can only radiate excess heat away.


You have discovered UHI. Hooray. Now how do you eliminate the UHI component from carparks, roadways, buildings?

Not just UHI, I mentioned the surface of the earth. You really need to start reading.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
We cannot see a wall in the absence of visible light so the radiation is in the infrared band. In this band of EM radiation greenhouse gases like water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide can absorb and re-emit IR radiation at specific frequencies for each molecule, save water vapor and carbon dioxide have absorption bands that partly overlap.



Yep. And you notice Harries doesn't show water vapour? We just have to accept at face value that it is just outside the band they show. Grin Grin Grin Grin

Water vapor, as you know, is a condensing GHG so studies remove the effect of water vapor to study the effect of the CO2, CH2, N2O and so on.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
Water vapor, when present in the atmosphere


Breaking news. JM finds there are times that the atmosphere has no water vapour.

Water vapor content of the atmosphere fluctuates, even you know that!
Even roach probably knows that.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 11:03am:
The result is the rise of temperatures we have seen since the Industrial Revolution, fossil fuel burning, took off.


Pure speculation. But keep trying. Grin Grin Grin Grin

Since the warming is due to the extra CO2 we put in the air and CO2 is a greenhouse gas it is not speculation.


So tell us with all this AGW how the Greenland Ice Sheet has expanded by about 500Gton. How some Karakoram glaciers are expanding.

Are you now trying to tell us AGW is not GLOBAL? Wink

Depends how you define global. The global average temperature is increasing due to our burning of fossil fuels so it is AGW. The Greenland mass gain, assuming it is inclusive of all the ice lost at sea level would be due to higher precipitation.
Will that last? We will have to see I suppose.

Some glaciers, as I have said before, are increasing if they are at a high altitude or latitude and favorably oriented with respect to prevailing winds. As I have said many times, AGW causes more evaporation and consequent precipitation.



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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #297 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 1:37pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Orbital peturbations, lack of volcanic activity, solar cycle etc. As you know, the sun is relatively quiescent since the 1980s, imagine global temps when an active sun adds to AGW.



So keen to deny the warming effects of visible light.  Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Judy Curry talks bullshit.



More ad homs.  Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
I have described how AGW works, have shown the 46% of increase in atmospheric CO2 and that isotopic analysis shows that the extra CO2 is anthropogenic.


And yet you deny the CO2 emitted by plant life and the oceans. The CSIRO shows greening of the planet, more CO2. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
So AGW is proven.


How much warming is due to CO2. The IPCC says since the 50's approximately 50%. Where did the rest come from? Or do you have a paper that refutes the IPCC, which they say uses peer-reviewed papers? Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Not just UHI, I mentioned the surface of the earth. You really need to start reading.


The surface of the earth has always been there. It changes over time. Wetter, drier, desert, greening. You would need to extrapolate the data. Cheesy

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Water vapor, as you know, is a condensing GHG so studies remove the effect of water vapor to study the effect of the CO2, CH2, N2O and so on.


Then why are they so scared to show it? Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Water vapor content of the atmosphere fluctuates, even you know that!


Yes. And now show the paper that shows it gets to zero. "When present in the atmosphere" means there are times it is NOT present in the atmosphere. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Since the warming is due to the extra CO2 we put in the air and CO2 is a greenhouse gas it is not speculation.



That whole piece is speculation. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Depends how you define global. The global average temperature is increasing due to our burning of fossil fuels so it is AGW. The Greenland mass gain, assuming it is inclusive of all the ice lost at sea level would be due to higher precipitation.
Will that last? We will have to see I suppose.

Some glaciers, as I have said before, are increasing if they are at a high altitude or latitude and favorably oriented with respect to prevailing winds. As I have said many times, AGW causes more evaporation and consequent precipitation.


So according to you GLOBAL is not necessarily global, but REGIONAL. So much for A
G
W.

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Reply #298 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 1:53pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 1:37pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Orbital peturbations, lack of volcanic activity, solar cycle etc. As you know, the sun is relatively quiescent since the 1980s, imagine global temps when an active sun adds to AGW.



So keen to deny the warming effects of visible light.  Wink

That is why I talk about states of the sun so much  Wink


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Judy Curry talks bullshit.



More ad homs.  Wink

No, fact, she does talk bullshit.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
I have described how AGW works, have shown the 46% of increase in atmospheric CO2 and that isotopic analysis shows that the extra CO2 is anthropogenic.


And yet you deny the CO2 emitted by plant life and the oceans. The CSIRO shows greening of the planet, more CO2. Wink

That is why I talk about the carbon cycle I guess  Wink


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
So AGW is proven.


How much warming is due to CO2. The IPCC says since the 50's approximately 50%. Where did the rest come from? Or do you have a paper that refutes the IPCC, which they say uses peer-reviewed papers? Wink

Since there is no especially heavy vulacanism, since there is no orbital perturbation and since the sun is quiescent I think the warming is 100%, more than that,
more like 110% because the warming is happening despite the sun being quiescent


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Not just UHI, I mentioned the surface of the earth. You really need to start reading.


The surface of the earth has always been there. It changes over time. Wetter, drier, desert, greening. You would need to extrapolate the data. Cheesy

I did not mention UHI, you did that. The surface of the earth heats up,
tries to lose its heat by radiation and increasingly is unable to do so due to GHGs, ergo, AGW!


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Water vapor, as you know, is a condensing GHG so studies remove the effect of water vapor to study the effect of the CO2, CH2, N2O and so on.


Then why are they so scared to show it? Wink

Because it varies due to evaporation–condensation–evaporation. I thought you knew that, guess you are dumber than I thought  Wink


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Water vapor content of the atmosphere fluctuates, even you know that!


Yes. And now show the paper that shows it gets to zero. "When present in the atmosphere" means there are times it is NOT present in the atmosphere. Wink

Does it?


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Since the warming is due to the extra CO2 we put in the air and CO2 is a greenhouse gas it is not speculation.



That whole piece is speculation. Wink

No, it is not. CO2 is a molecule with three atoms so is a GHG, we have put 46% more CO2 in the atmosphere, hence AGW.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
Depends how you define global. The global average temperature is increasing due to our burning of fossil fuels so it is AGW. The Greenland mass gain, assuming it is inclusive of all the ice lost at sea level would be due to higher precipitation.
Will that last? We will have to see I suppose.

Some glaciers, as I have said before, are increasing if they are at a high altitude or latitude and favorably oriented with respect to prevailing winds. As I have said many times, AGW causes more evaporation and consequent precipitation.


So according to you GLOBAL is not necessarily global, but REGIONAL. So much for A
G
W.

If the global temperature increases it is global warming.



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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #299 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:43pm
 
Judith Curry


Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


...

We know that GHGs—molecules with 3 or more atoms, 2 or more dipoles—can absorb IR radiation at specific frequencies then re-emit the IR along the other dipole. The re-emission can be downward as often as it is upwards.

Thus experiments by Harries using satellite spectrometers show less IR radiation heading to space while the Feldman measurements on the north slope of Alaska and another location show more IR radiation returning to the surface. This IR radiation blocked from leaving the atmosphere heats the surface.

...

The measurements of CO2 are so sensitive they show the yearly carbon cycle. The amounts of IR returned to the surface vary directly with the amount of CO2.

There really is no room to deny that AGW is real.

I am sure everybody here has touched a rock or a brick wall etc after a long hot day. The rock or the wall or whatever is still warm. In a solid object not made of metal heat cannot be conducted or convected away. The solid object, the surface of the earth, can only radiate excess heat away.

We cannot see a wall in the absence of visible light so the radiation is in the infrared band. In this band of EM radiation greenhouse gases like water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide can absorb and re-emit IR radiation at specific frequencies for each molecule, save water vapor and carbon dioxide have absorption bands that partly overlap.

Water vapor, when present in the atmosphere leaves but a small window in the IR band and the other GHGs close that window further. Our wall or rock or the surface of the earth cannot lose all the heat, some gets radiated back to the surface, heating it.

The result is the rise of temperatures we have seen since the Industrial Revolution, fossil fuel burning, took off.


Bringing this to the front again.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #300 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:46pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Bringing this to the front again.



Despite the uncertainties you describe in the "data"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #301 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am
 
Uncertainty does not mean doubt or error.

Whatever level of error/uncertainty/variance the instruments can detect a trend in temperatures and as I explain under “Thermometer” what we can see, like glaciers retreating etc bears out that temperatures are rising.

The existence of AGW is not in doubt and also supports the rising trend in temperatures.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #302 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 3:42pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
Uncertainty does not mean doubt or error.



So funny. We have no comprehensive measurement of temperatures at the poles, which creates uncertainty, but there is no doubt. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
Whatever level of error/uncertainty/variance the instruments can detect a trend in temperatures and as I explain under “Thermometer” what we can see, like glaciers retreating etc bears out that temperatures are rising.


Yes and you can ignore historical variations because you don't have the data.

You know like old tree stumps revealed by retreating ice, old Roman mines etc, etc.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
The existence of AGW is not in doubt and also supports the rising trend in temperatures.



Yeah. Now quantify it and separate out the Minoan Warm Period, Roman Warm Period, Mediaeval Warm Period. And show conclusively that your suppositions are correct.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #303 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 3:42pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
Uncertainty does not mean doubt or error.



So funny. We have no comprehensive measurement of temperatures at the poles, which creates uncertainty, but there is no doubt. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

No doubt. If anything, the series understate the temperature increase


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
Whatever level of error/uncertainty/variance the instruments can detect a trend in temperatures and as I explain under “Thermometer” what we can see, like glaciers retreating etc bears out that temperatures are rising.


Yes and you can ignore historical variations because you don't have the data.

You know like old tree stumps revealed by retreating ice, old Roman mines etc, etc.

Nope, I am concentrating on the current era where AGW is increasing temperatures. Let us hope other temperature–raising events do not come back any time soon: lack of vulcanism, solar activity increase, orbital perturbations.

Yes, other periods were warmer than other periods, but not due to AGW.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:17am:
The existence of AGW is not in doubt and also supports the rising trend in temperatures.



Yeah. Now quantify it and separate out the Minoan Warm Period, Roman Warm Period, Mediaeval Warm Period. And show conclusively that your suppositions are correct.

Was there a big increase in anthropogenic CO2 in the Minoan etc period?
No? Just as I thought.





For someone who is happy with CO2 and temperature increases, sea level rises you seem to spend an awful time here denying the effect of CO2 on global temperatures?

Me, I think that the effects of AGW are bad enough to not want them to be there when other heating factors: solar activity picking up, orbital perturbations, decrease in vulcanism etc kick in and add onto AGW.

Not to mention ocean acidification, eating away at the base of the pyramid of life. Biut I guess you are happy with this effect of CO2 as well? Me, I am funny in that I like to think of healthy marine, lacustrine, riverine and other aquatic environments
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #304 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:26pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
No doubt. If anything, the series understate the temperature increase



Another of you favourite subjects. Pure speculation. So scientific. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Nope, I am concentrating on the current era where AGW is increasing temperatures.



Because you don't want to compare it to te past. This is the new earth, we are in a new paradigm. Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Yes, other periods were warmer than other periods, but not due to AGW.


What were they caused by? Not speculation please. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Was there a big increase in anthropogenic CO2 in the Minoan etc period?
No? Just as I thought.


Can you show us a graphic of that? Remember what smoothing did to Marcott's graph and that only went back 2,000 years? The smoothing caused it to not show anything less than 300 years.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
For someone who is happy with CO2 and temperature increases, sea level rises you seem to spend an awful time here denying the effect of CO2 on global temperatures?


Nope. I am debunking your constant fear campaign. Why are you so afraid?

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
ot to mention ocean acidification, eating away at the base of the pyramid of life.


Please tell us where the ocean is acid. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #305 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:26pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
No doubt. If anything, the series understate the temperature increase



Another of you favourite subjects. Pure speculation. So scientific. Wink

Well, 1, speculation on natural events leads to theories being formulated then tested etc and 2. The fact just happens to be that high latitude areas are seriously underrepresented in the temperature series. High latitudes, polar areas are where AGW is hitting hardest.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Nope, I am concentrating on the current era where AGW is increasing temperatures.



Because you don't want to compare it to te past. This is the new earth, we are in a new paradigm. Grin Grin Grin Grin

Because the past is irrelevant: the previous “warm” periods in history did not have 410ppm CO2 in the atmosphere.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Yes, other periods were warmer than other periods, but not due to AGW.


What were they caused by? Not speculation please. Wink

Speculation is all we have. I suspect: 1. low volcanic activity, 2. a more active solar state, 3. different ocean currents or possibly minor orbital perturbations that saw the northern hemisphere receive more solar radiation.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
Was there a big increase in anthropogenic CO2 in the Minoan etc period?
No? Just as I thought.


Can you show us a graphic of that? Remember what smoothing did to Marcott's graph and that only went back 2,000 years? The smoothing caused it to not show anything less than 300 years.

Did the Minoans have an industrial revolution? No? Just as I thought.
No evidence of high CO2 either in the paleoclimate record


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
For someone who is happy with CO2 and temperature increases and consequent sea level rises etc you seem to spend an awful time here denying the effect of CO2 on global temperatures?


Nope. I am debunking your constant fear campaign. Why are you so afraid?

No, you seem to be afraid of admitting that anthropogenic CO2 is changing the climate. I look at ever increasing sea levels, heat events, ever more common and destructive wildfires and think increasing CO2 in the atmosphere much more is a stupid thing to do. You, OTOH, appear terrified of leaving a post by me showing the effects of increasing GHG concentrations in the atmosphere not buried by lies, bullshit and obfuscation. So much for being comfortable with present CO2 levels.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:08pm:
ot to mention ocean acidification, eating away at the base of the pyramid of life.


Please tell us where the ocean is acid. Wink

Really, this old turkey? You want to trot this out like the most brainless little commenter on the JoNova nonsense blog? Why not say you believe in Booby’s idiotic Ice Age? Really!

Acidification, making more acid, less alkaline.


This was all dead easy. Wassamatter Lees, you are maybe not as comfortable as all that in the face of increasing CO2 levels? Well, don’t relax, the really powerful GHGs methane and nitrous oxide are rapidly increasing in concentration.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #306 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 6:45pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Well, 1, speculation on natural events leads to theories being formulated then tested etc and 2. The fact just happens to be that high latitude areas are seriously underrepresented in the temperature series. High latitudes, polar areas are where AGW is hitting hardest.



Now show the testing. Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Because the past is irrelevant: the previous “warm” periods in history did not have 410ppm CO2 in the atmosphere.



Again Speculation. Please show the paper with the appropriate error bars, smoothings and proof that these were taken into account. What you have said is merely an assertion without proof.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Speculation is all we have. I suspect: 1. low volcanic activity, 2. a more active solar state, 3. different ocean currents or possibly minor orbital perturbations that saw the northern hemisphere receive more solar radiation.



So no FACTS. Goodo. Not scientific but good try.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Did the Minoans have an industrial revolution? No? Just as I thought.
No evidence of high CO2 either in the paleoclimate record


But you forget the time frame and the necessary smoothing to fit the data.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
I look at ever increasing sea levels,


AH, the problematic sea levels.

Seeing as you are moving to Tassie have a look at the tide marking at Port Arthur.

" However, the man responsible for putting the mark there, explorer Sir James Clark Ross stated explicitly and

several times in his 1846 book [3] that the mark was placed at MSL (as he estimated it to be), not at a point 44.5cm above, near the high tide point, as claimed by the study. Other evidence surrounding the original placing of the benchmark is less clear, but we do have one positive measurement of where the benchmark stood relative to sea level taken in 1888 by the then Government meteorologist, Commander J. Shortt R.N.  He found the mark to be 34cm above sea level - only 2½ cm different to its current position [7] [5]."

"This suggests a sea level rise since 1888 of only 2½cm, not 13cm as claimed by the study.  "

http://www.john-daly.com/deadisle/
Dated Feb 2003.
Ref  - [3] Ross, Sir J.C., (1847), "A Voyage of Discovery and Research in the Southern and Antarctic Regions, During
     the Years 1839-43", John Murray, London, pp.22-32.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
heat events,


Please show the paper that explicitly labels increased heat events.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
ever more common and destructive wildfires


Citation needed on them being more common and destructive. Apart from dollar amounts as prices go up.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Really, this old turkey? You want to trot this out like the most brainless little commenter on the JoNova nonsense blog? Why not say you believe in Booby’s idiotic Ice Age? Really!

Acidification, making more acid, less alkaline.



Wrong. Acidification as used by you maybe. You should read up on titration. Acidification is making a base acidic, not less alkaline,

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
This was all dead easy.



Everything is dead easy if you are brain dead. Wink
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Reply #307 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 7:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:47pm:
Because the past is irrelevant: the previous “warm” periods in history did not have 410ppm CO2 in the atmosphere.


I fund this -

...

Very spotty. But stomata data differs from ice core significantly.
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Reply #308 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 8:59pm
 
How much did it cost you to “fund” that?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #309 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 8:59pm:
How much did it cost you to “fund” that?


Five minutes on Google. You should try learning what you think you know.
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Reply #310 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:13pm
 
Better go “fund” a few more cases.   Wink
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Reply #311 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:13pm:
Better go “fund” a few more cases.   Wink


Sorry. You wouldn't be on my list. You don't look at the science if it disagrees with your view.

Did you look at the list of studies in the top right corner or dismiss it it out of hand? I suspect the latter. Wink
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Reply #312 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:25pm
 
Come on, one case and you expect me to believe CO2 concentrations were 410ppm  whenever that case was? CO2 hasn’t been near 410ppm for a VERY long time.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #313 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:32pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:25pm:
Come on, one case and you expect me to believe CO2 concentrations were 410ppm  whenever that case was? CO2 hasn’t been near 410ppm for a VERY long time.


See I told you have cognitive dissonance. Five papers. And who said they were 410ppm? I said they disagree strongly with ice core data. I also said the data was spotty.

What can't be said is that we haven't had 410ppm for " a VERY long time". BTW - How long is a VERY long time. It is certainly not scientific usage. Wink
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Reply #314 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:47pm
 
A very long time. Not going to bother checking exactly how long because you will just cover it up.
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Reply #315 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 10:06pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:47pm:
A very long time. Not going to bother checking exactly how long because you will just cover it up.


You must explain how I can cover something up that you publicly release. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #316 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 10:51pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 6:45pm:
Wrong. Acidification as used by you maybe. You should read up on titration. Acidification is making a base acidic, not less alkaline,


Everything is dead easy if you are brain dead. Wink


Nice ad hom there!

Acidification—making a base more acidic, less alkaline. Increasing the H+ ion count.


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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #317 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:28pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
In a solid object not made of metal heat cannot be conducted or convected away. The solid object, the surface of the earth, can only radiate excess heat away.



Incorrect.

Solids can conduct heat, and do so via kinetic energy at the atomic level.

Any physics textbook can illustrate this should you wish to learn more.
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Reply #318 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:52pm
 
Insulators do not conduct much heat. E.g. at 1.2metre depths the soil is at a constant temperature. Touch a rock that has been in the sun then touch a metallic object that has also been in the sun—feels hotter because it conducts more heat to your hand.
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Reply #319 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 2:43pm
 
Just received the Climatology book. It has been used—highlighting in many chapters but that is no problem. Will take a while to plough through—“college level.”
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Reply #320 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 7:12pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 10:51pm:
Nice ad hom there!


Yes. I thought it was. Thanks.

Just one example of the biter being bit. Wink
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Reply #321 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 7:20pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:52pm:
Insulators do not conduct much heat.


Such a little word "much".

Glass is an insulator. Glass conducts heat, not well, but conduct it does. And it is not a metal.
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Reply #322 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 7:49pm
 
And the surface of the planet. . .?

How can that conduct heat when a whole huge area is at the same temperature?

Nah, radiation is the only way the surface of earth can lose heat, but increasingly the IR radiation is redirected back to the surface.
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Reply #323 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 7:49pm:
And the surface of the planet. . .?

How can that conduct heat when a whole huge area is at the same temperature?



What an absolute load of cobblers. Which huge area of the earth is at the same temperature? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #324 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm
 
York Peninsula say, or Eyre Peninsula or the Lower North of SA etc. Hell, in summer almost all of Australia is at one temperature, too bloody hot. Where is the desert around Uluru going to conduct heat too, equally hot deserts further out from Uluru?

Insulators don’t move heat around much at all, the surface can only lose heat by radiation.

Even the seas can’t get rid of heat much except by radiation. While molecules in a fluid move much faster than molecules in a solid the options are limited there too. Looking at heat maps you see huge swathes of ocean are pretty much the same temperature (pretty much, doubt really detailed fine–grained temperature records are available) such as “hot waters on the eastern side of the Pacific etc so conduction is out. Convection doesn’t come into it. Some heat might be lost to deep ocean waters but studies indicate there isn’t much mixing. While oceans can lose heat to the air or by condensation (latent heat) again most is directly or indirectly (air heated by the warm ocean) lost by radiation.
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Reply #325 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:25pm
 
AGW - it's  not happening, Reg, it's  just not happening!!!
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Reply #326 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:27pm
 
Sorry, Sore End, but it bloody well is.

La Nina years here are now hotter than El Nino years were just 2-3 decades ago.

Here, measurements of IR being sent back down to the surface as CO2 increases. So accurate, you can see the carbon cycle:

...

Since the surface cannot radiate away all its heat it necessarily heats up.
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Reply #327 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:40pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
York Peninsula say, or Eyre Peninsula or the Lower North of SA etc. Hell, in summer almost all of Australia is at one temperature,



Really. It was 12ºC here today. What parts of York peninsula was at 12ºC? Eyre Peninsula? Lower North of SA. Or are you talking about homogenised temperatures?

Give us the data for these places. maybe you are talking about homogenised temperatures where they are for areas of 12,000 sq km, not actual place temperatures.

Yeah, you would be stupid enough to believe that.

The temperatures for Kimba, Port Lincoln, Elliston all seem to be different. How is that?

Darwin, Perth, Hobart, Sydney all different. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #328 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:51pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
Looking at heat maps you see huge swathes of ocean are pretty much the same temperature (pretty much, doubt really detailed fine–grained temperature records are available)


Yeah.
...

Courtesy:BoM.

Waters around Australia. 0 - 34ºC. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #329 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm
 
But in defined bands, huge swathes of sea. Or do you think waters north of Australia can conduct heat to waters south of Tasmania? Each huge temperature band is surrounded by other bands of water of similar temperature. Nope, even the seas effectively can only radiate away energy.

Your problem is an inability to think.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #330 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:10pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Or do you think waters north of Australia can conduct heat to waters south of Tasmania?


The East Australian Current does so in summer when it can reach speeds of 3-4 knots and sweeps hot water from the tropical north to southern regions inclusive of Tasmania (hence the recent POMS outbreak) and NZ.


Quote:
Your problem is an inability to think.


I like this quote. A lot.  Grin
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Reply #331 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm
 
Moriaty wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:10pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Or do you think waters north of Australia can conduct heat to waters south of Tasmania?


The East Australian Current does so in summer when it can reach speeds of 3-4 knots and sweeps hot water from the tropical north to southern regions inclusive of Tasmania (hence the recent POMS outbreak) and NZ.


Quote:
Your problem is an inability to think.


I like this quote. A lot.  Grin


That is not conduction tho. And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #332 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:16pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
But in defined bands,



Well who woudda thunk? And that's just SST's. Wink And some of those swathes are sooo narrow.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Your problem is an inability to think.



So tell us about those broad swathes of land based temperatures for all of Australia. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Reply #333 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:17pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm:
That is not conduction tho. And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.


The method of transfer is irrelevant. You claimed the heat cannot be transferred. The semantics are irrelevant to the physics.

Energy can be created. It is what our sun does via nuclear fusion.
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Reply #334 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:19pm
 
I said the surface couldn’t conduct heat away! Don’t put words in my mouth, OK?
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Reply #335 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:21pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm:
And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.



But the CO2 outgassing must contain the extra heat. Wink

BTW - the true quote is "Energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed from one form to another".

Wink
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Reply #336 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:26pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:21pm:
BTW - the true quote is "Energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed from one form to another".

Wink


Correct. And in the case of oceanic warming, the process has been delayed by algae using the extra heat energy to grow at an increased rate. Which has thrown out the global warming/ocean warming modelling by a significant degree.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #337 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:39pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
Even the seas can’t get rid of heat much except by radiation. While molecules in a fluid move much faster than molecules in a solid the options are limited there too. Looking at heat maps you see huge swathes of ocean are pretty much the same temperature (pretty much, doubt really detailed fine–grained temperature records are available) such as “hot waters on the eastern side of the Pacific etc so conduction is out. Convection doesn’t come into it. Some heat might be lost to deep ocean waters but studies indicate there isn’t much mixing. While oceans can lose heat to the air or by condensation (latent heat) again most is directly or indirectly (air heated by the warm ocean) lost by radiation.


uhmm no. This would be conduction between the water and air. Evaporation leads to heat loss, but this isn't classed as radiation. A good example would be tropical storms gaining energy via the transfer of heat (via conduction) from a body of water to the air mass above it.

Radiation involves heat transfer through the generation of photons.

A good example of convection based heat transfer is the cold water upwellings on the east coast of Oz during winter. The westerly winds push the warm water offshore, causing the cold bottom waters to upwell and mix with the warm surface waters. Hence the algal blooms in winter.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #338 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:44pm
 
I know, but I was talking about conduction and as we agreed the heat still stays on the surface (ground, sea, atmosphere.) Only way the planet can lose heat is to radiate it out to space.

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #339 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:59pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:44pm:
I know, but I was talking about conduction and as we agreed the heat still stays on the surface (ground, sea, atmosphere.) Only way the planet can lose heat is to radiate it out to space.



True. But the heat from the oceans can get to the upper troposphere via (very limited) conduction. And then it can radiate away.

Or it can be used by organisms which convert the heat/infra-red energy into chemical energy and store it in the food chain like algae do or to generate physical "containers" like diatom skeletons which end up in the sediment post-death.

The real issue in my view is the lack of adequate whole-of-system modelling which had given the climate skeptics an advantage, namely the failure of the climate models to provide accurate near-term predictions.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #340 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:06am
 
Too much noise in the weather record I think.
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Reply #341 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:28am
 
As the globe warms and the tropics get wetter you would expect mosquito borne diseases to spread and hit more people. Yup:

Quote:
Researchers are using the unprecedented outbreak to study the emerging disease in real time. And they’re uncovering lessons that could buy time for health officials to mobilize a response to mosquito-borne disease before another outbreak occurs.

Beard explained that Zika infections, like almost all diseases spread by mosquitoes, hinge on two variables: infected hosts and capable carriers.

For Zika to spread, a mosquito that’s able to carry the virus has to bite a person already carrying it. The virus then needs enough time to reproduce inside the mosquito. The insect then has to bite an uninfected person. Health officials have also found that the virus can be spread sexually.

This means that people are key to spreading the disease across borders and oceans—not just mosquitoes.

“The virus was introduced by infected travelers returning to the United States from an area with active Zika transmission,” Beard said. “Because this was the first global outbreak of Zika virus, virtually everyone in the United States (and globally) had not been infected and was therefore susceptible to infection.”

Predicting human behavior is difficult, so some scientists focused on the mosquito.
The number of Aedes mosquitoes rises and falls depending on temperature and rainfall, so researchers reasoned that climate variables could portend their spread.
In a paper published earlier this month in the journal Frontiers in Microbiology, researchers asked, “Could the recent zika epidemic have been predicted?”

The short answer is no.

However, they used climate data from afflicted regions to build a model for Aedes populations. That helped researchers highlight potential infection hot spots for mosquito-borne disease transmission one to three months in advance.

“Both the mosquitos that transmit Zika and the virus itself are climate-sensitive,” said co-author Ángel Muñoz, a postdoctoral research associate in atmospheric and oceanic science at Princeton University, in an email.

“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.


http://www.eenews.net/
(reprinted by Scientific American)
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #342 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:30am
 
Quote:
“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.

Since Zika is a new disease in the Americas, it’s still too early to tell whether it will follow in the footsteps of its cousins or forge its own path through the Americas or around the world.
“The model is not going to differentiate whether it’s Zika or dengue or chikungunya,” Thomson said. “It’s just telling you that transmission suitability is up.”

She added that the key to filling in the blanks with infection forecasts is better data, getting more granular information over smaller regions and measuring over different time scales.
As the climate changes and humanity becomes more mobile across the planet, health officials are bracing for viruses like Zika to take root in new environs and for new infections to emerge in its wake.

“We are seeing an accelerated threat from mosquito-borne diseases overall,” said the CDC’s Beard. “Over the past few decades, we have seen a resurgence of dengue and the introduction of West Nile, chikungunya, and now Zika virus into the Western Hemisphere.”
“It is very hard to determine which one might come next—Zika virus wasn’t on anyone’s radar screen before it became an international threat,” he added. “What we do know is that in this age of globalization, more will be coming—we just don’t know from where or when.”


http://www.eenews.net/
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #343 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:06pm
 
Yep. Just like malaria is a tropical disease. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #344 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 11:37pm
 
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #345 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 11:02am
 
Bugger. The acceleration has stopped. Oh, no. Where will they get the new scare story?

And then they will remember this is based on the satellite altimetry which has a native resolution of 35mm, but can see changes of 3mm. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #346 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 11:05am
 
Babble babble goes Lees.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #347 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 11:15am
 
Wassup BSc Geology....?
Don't you understand Lee's point? Roll Eyes
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #348 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 11:16am
 
Grendel wrote on Aug 20th, 2017 at 11:15am:
Wassup BSc Geology....?
Don't you understand Lee's point? Roll Eyes


Of course not. The ocean isn't rocks. Wink
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Reply #349 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:53am
 

Quote:
This is an animation of ocean surface currents from June 2005 to December 2007 from NASA satellites. Watch how bigger currents like the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic Ocean and the Kuroshio in the Pacific carry warm waters across thousands of miles at speeds greater than four miles per hour (six kilometers per hour); how coastal currents like the Agulhas in the Southern Hemisphere move equatorial waters toward Earth's poles; and how thousands of other ocean currents are confined to particular regions and form slow-moving, circular pools called eddies. Credit: NASA/SVS.



Extraordinary video of ocean currents mapped by the NASA/CNES Topex-Poseidon satellite.

This satellite and its successors have:
Quote:
. . .ushered in a new era of oceanography with the first highly accurate, global measurements of sea levels. That mission and its three successors, all named Jason, have continuously mapped global ocean currents and tides; opened our eyes to the global reach of El Niño and other climate events; created a quarter-century-long, extraordinarily precise record of global and regional sea level rise; and enabled improved forecasts of extreme weather events such as hurricanes, floods and droughts.



Heat storage in the oceans

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1196

Quote:
More than 90 percent of the heat from global warming is stored in the ocean, which means oceans are key players in global climate. Heat causes ocean water to expand, adding to sea level rise. Measuring both long-term sea level trends and the shape of the ocean surface related to currents, Topex-Poseidon and the Jason series provide two basic ingredients for understanding the ocean's role in global climate variations.


Note the cold water south of Greenland. This is likely ice that has calved or melted from Greenland. Being fresh water it floats on top of denser saline ocean water.


El Niño, La Niña, and more

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1197/
Quote:
Among Topex-Poseidon's early achievements was recording the full extent of a record El Niño in 1997 and the succeeding La Niña in 1999. Darker colors are sea levels lower than normal, lighter and white colors are higher than normal. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech.


Quite amazing.
Quote:
For decades, scientists could not predict how El Niño and other year-to-year ocean variations changed regional weather. That was partly because, using only ships and buoys, they couldn't observe the genesis and growth of these changes far out in the equatorial Pacific. Topex-Poseidon and the Jason satellites have given the first frequent, global views of the full extent and life cycles of El Niño and La Niña events. Lee-Lueng Fu of JPL — project scientist for the first two ocean altimetry missions — pointed out, "Topex-Poseidon allowed us to follow their evolution and showed that these events weren't limited to just the tropics. It also gave us evidence of even longer-lasting ocean variations." One of these is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, similar to El Niño and La Niña in character but with phases lasting up to several decades.



Tides

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1198/
Quote:
A numerical model of daily global tides using sea level data from Topex-Poseidon. Credit: ESR
.

Quote:
Topex-Poseidon made the first global maps of tides, which changed scientists' understanding of how tides dissipate. The data show that a third of tidal energy dissipates in the open ocean, playing important and previously unknown roles in mixing water within the ocean.



Forecasting

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1200/
Quote:
Jason-1 data contributed to this forecast of Hurricane Rita's track across the Gulf of Mexico in 2005. The storm track appears as a black line. Jason-1 observed a tongue of very warm water (red) in the gulf, 13-23 inches (35-60 centimeters) higher than surrounding water. Ocean heat can strengthen hurricane intensity. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Colorado.


Quote:
On smaller space and time scales, satellite altimetry measurements provide information directly useful for marine storm prediction. Hurricanes are fueled by heat stored in the ocean below, and since the upper ocean expands and contracts as it heats and cools, sea level height is a marker for water temperature and heat content. So it is hardly surprising that ocean altimetry data are routinely used in forecasting hurricane strength.

In 2014, an unexpected forecasting use for altimetry data became operational. Bangladesh, whose 46-year history has encompassed death-dealing river floods, uses Jason-2 measurements of river levels in its flood forecasting and warning system. Within the first year using these data, Bangladesh's system enabled the most accurate, long-lead flood warnings ever given for that nation.


That is some precise measurements by the Jason satellites!

Cont’d
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Reply #350 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:32am
 
In 2017 Jason 2 satellite was showing signs of damage to its on–board systems. Its orbit was then lowered by several miles and it began mapping the topography of the sea floor, sea mounts and that kind of thing. This will help improve forecasting of tides and currents.

Quote:
Satellites have already revolutionized oceanography, and soon they will do the same for hydrology -- the study of water on land. The French/U.S. Surface Water and Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission will be at the forefront, carrying an innovative interferometer dubbed KaRin that marks a break with today's technologies.

dam you notes that these changes show the value the world scientific community places on the ocean altimetry program. "The measurement is so important, and the technology is fully demonstrated," he said. "In the long haul, ocean altimetry is an international commitment."


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2614/25-years-of-global-sea-level-data-and-countin...

A fascinating account.


How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?

Quote:
Abstract

Jason, the successor to the TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) mission, has been designed to continue seamlessly the decade-long altimetric sea level record initiated by T/P. Intersatellite calibration has determined the relative bias to an accuracy of 1.6 mm rms. Tide gauge calibration of the T/P record during its original mission shows a drift of −0.1 ± 0.4 mm/year. The tide gauge calibration of 20 months of nominal Jason data indicates a drift of −5.7 ± 1.0 mm/year, which may be attributable to errors in the orbit ephemeris and the Jason Microwave Radiometer. The analysis of T/P and Jason altimeter data over the past decade has resulted in a determination of global mean sea level change of +2.8 ± 0.4 mm/year.


From NASA:
Quote:
Abstract

TOPEX/POSEIDON is the first space mission specifically designed and conducted for studying the circulation of the world's oceans. The mission is jointly conducted by the United States and France. A state-of-the-art radar altimetry system is used to measure the precise height of sea level, from which information on the ocean circulation is obtained. The satellite, launched on August 10, 1992, has been making observations of the global oceans with unprecedented accuracy since late September 1992. To meet the stringent measurement accuracy required for ocean circulation studies, a number of innovative improvements have been made to the mission design, including the first dual-frequency space-borne radar altimeter capable of retrieving the ionospheric delay of the radar signal, a three-frequency microwave radiometer for retrieving the signal delay caused by the water vapor in the troposphere, an optimal model of the Earth's gravity field and multiple satellite tracking systems for precision orbit determination. Additionally, the satellite also carries two experimental instruments to demonstrate new technologies: a single-frequency solid-state altimeter for the technology of low-power, low-weight altimeter and a Global Positioning System receiver for continuous, precise satellite tracking. The performance of the mission's measurement system has been tested by numerous verification studies. The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm. This global data set is being analyzed by an international team of 200 scientists for improved understanding of the global ocean circulation as well as the ocean tides, geodesy, and geodynamics, and ocean wind and waves. The mission is designed to last for at least 3 years with a possible extension to 6 years. The multiyear global data set will go a long way toward understanding the ocean circulation and its variability in relation to climate change. A summary of the mission's systems and their performance as well as the mission's science team is presented in the paper.



Looks like millimeter precision. These satellites really have given us a revolution in measurement and understanding of oceans and the heating of the oceans by AGW and consequent sea level rise, ENSO and the PDO, predicting the path of hurricanes and so on.

The satellites have even found sea rises and falls in the Mediterranean:

Quote:
Abstract

Using altimetry data of the Topex/Poseidon satellite available since early 1993, we show that the eastern Mediterranean sea level has been continuously rising during 1993–1999, at a rate up to 20 mm/yr southeast of Crete. Sea level rise is also observed in the Algerian-Provencal basin as well as in the Tyrrhenian and Adriatic seas. The north Ionian sea, on the other hand, shows an opposite trend, i.e., a sea level drop during the past seven years. Sea surface temperature trends are strongly correlated to sea level trends, indicating that at least part of the observed sea level change has a thermal origin. The recent Mediterranean sea level rise observed by Topex/Poseidon may be related to the warming trends reported from hydrographic cruises in the intermediate and deep waters of the eastern basin since the early 1990s, and of the western basin since the 1960s.


The Amazon basin:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1251805001016883

Yes, Lees was babbling and likely hadn’t even looked at the link I provided  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #351 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 4:48pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:32am:
The performance of the mission's measurement system has been tested by numerous verification studies. The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm.


Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:32am:
Looks like millimeter precision.


"Basic facts about Jason-2

    Flies in a low-Earth orbit (1336 km)
    Provides global coverage between 66°N and 66°S latitude
    Has a 10-day repeat of the ground track
    Maps 95% of the world’s ice-free oceans every ten days
    Sea surface height accuracy is currently 3.4 cm (2.5 expected in the future)"

https://www.eumetsat.int/jason/print.htm

So let's see -
TOPEX - 4.7cm (47mm)
POSEIDON - 5.1cm (51mm)
JASON -2 - 3.4cm (34mm)

And that's "millimeter precision" according to JM.


But then with multiple passes they can pretend it is much more accurate. 34mm divided by 1000. Wow, how accurate is that. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #352 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 4:50pm
 
Lees babbling:

Quote:
a native resolution of 35mm



Oops!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #353 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 4:51pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 4:50pm:
Lees babbling:

Quote:
a native resolution of 35mm



Oops!


Oh dear out by 1mm. That's millimetre accuracy for you. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #354 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:02pm
 
Quote:
The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm.

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Reply #355 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:18pm
 

Quote:
This is an animation of ocean surface currents from June 2005 to December 2007 from NASA satellites. Watch how bigger currents like the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic Ocean and the Kuroshio in the Pacific carry warm waters across thousands of miles at speeds greater than four miles per hour (six kilometers per hour); how coastal currents like the Agulhas in the Southern Hemisphere move equatorial waters toward Earth's poles; and how thousands of other ocean currents are confined to particular regions and form slow-moving, circular pools called eddies. Credit: NASA/SVS.



Extraordinary video of ocean currents mapped by the NASA/CNES Topex-Poseidon satellite.

This satellite and its successors have:
Quote:
. . .ushered in a new era of oceanography with the first highly accurate, global measurements of sea levels. That mission and its three successors, all named Jason, have continuously mapped global ocean currents and tides; opened our eyes to the global reach of El Niño and other climate events; created a quarter-century-long, extraordinarily precise record of global and regional sea level rise; and enabled improved forecasts of extreme weather events such as hurricanes, floods and droughts.



Heat storage in the oceans

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1196

Quote:
More than 90 percent of the heat from global warming is stored in the ocean, which means oceans are key players in global climate. Heat causes ocean water to expand, adding to sea level rise. Measuring both long-term sea level trends and the shape of the ocean surface related to currents, Topex-Poseidon and the Jason series provide two basic ingredients for understanding the ocean's role in global climate variations.


Note the cold water south of Greenland. This is likely ice that has calved or melted from Greenland. Being fresh water it floats on top of denser saline ocean water.


El Niño, La Niña, and more

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1197/
Quote:
Among Topex-Poseidon's early achievements was recording the full extent of a record El Niño in 1997 and the succeeding La Niña in 1999. Darker colors are sea levels lower than normal, lighter and white colors are higher than normal. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech.


Quite amazing.
Quote:
For decades, scientists could not predict how El Niño and other year-to-year ocean variations changed regional weather. That was partly because, using only ships and buoys, they couldn't observe the genesis and growth of these changes far out in the equatorial Pacific. Topex-Poseidon and the Jason satellites have given the first frequent, global views of the full extent and life cycles of El Niño and La Niña events. Lee-Lueng dam you of JPL — project scientist for the first two ocean altimetry missions — pointed out, "Topex-Poseidon allowed us to follow their evolution and showed that these events weren't limited to just the tropics. It also gave us evidence of even longer-lasting ocean variations." One of these is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, similar to El Niño and La Niña in character but with phases lasting up to several decades.



Tides

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1198/
Quote:
A numerical model of daily global tides using sea level data from Topex-Poseidon. Credit: ESR
.

Quote:
Topex-Poseidon made the first global maps of tides, which changed scientists' understanding of how tides dissipate. The data show that a third of tidal energy dissipates in the open ocean, playing important and previously unknown roles in mixing water within the ocean.



Forecasting

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1200/
Quote:
Jason-1 data contributed to this forecast of Hurricane Rita's track across the Gulf of Mexico in 2005. The storm track appears as a black line. Jason-1 observed a tongue of very warm water (red) in the gulf, 13-23 inches (35-60 centimeters) higher than surrounding water. Ocean heat can strengthen hurricane intensity. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Colorado.


Quote:
On smaller space and time scales, satellite altimetry measurements provide information directly useful for marine storm prediction. Hurricanes are fueled by heat stored in the ocean below, and since the upper ocean expands and contracts as it heats and cools, sea level height is a marker for water temperature and heat content. So it is hardly surprising that ocean altimetry data are routinely used in forecasting hurricane strength.

In 2014, an unexpected forecasting use for altimetry data became operational. Bangladesh, whose 46-year history has encompassed death-dealing river floods, uses Jason-2 measurements of river levels in its flood forecasting and warning system. Within the first year using these data, Bangladesh's system enabled the most accurate, long-lead flood warnings ever given for that nation.


That is some precise measurements by the Jason satellites!

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #356 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:21pm
 
In 2017 Jason 2 satellite was showing signs of damage to its on–board systems. Its orbit was then lowered by several miles and it began mapping the topography of the sea floor, sea mounts and that kind of thing. This will help improve forecasting of tides and currents.

Quote:
Satellites have already revolutionized oceanography, and soon they will do the same for hydrology -- the study of water on land. The French/U.S. Surface Water and Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission will be at the forefront, carrying an innovative interferometer dubbed KaRin that marks a break with today's technologies.

dam you notes that these changes show the value the world scientific community places on the ocean altimetry program. "The measurement is so important, and the technology is fully demonstrated," he said. "In the long haul, ocean altimetry is an international commitment."


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2614/25-years-of-global-sea-level-data-and-countin...

A fascinating account.


How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?

Quote:
Abstract

Jason, the successor to the TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) mission, has been designed to continue seamlessly the decade-long altimetric sea level record initiated by T/P. Intersatellite calibration has determined the relative bias to an accuracy of 1.6 mm rms. Tide gauge calibration of the T/P record during its original mission shows a drift of −0.1 ± 0.4 mm/year. The tide gauge calibration of 20 months of nominal Jason data indicates a drift of −5.7 ± 1.0 mm/year, which may be attributable to errors in the orbit ephemeris and the Jason Microwave Radiometer. The analysis of T/P and Jason altimeter data over the past decade has resulted in a determination of global mean sea level change of +2.8 ± 0.4 mm/year.


From NASA:
Quote:
Abstract

TOPEX/POSEIDON is the first space mission specifically designed and conducted for studying the circulation of the world's oceans. The mission is jointly conducted by the United States and France. A state-of-the-art radar altimetry system is used to measure the precise height of sea level, from which information on the ocean circulation is obtained. The satellite, launched on August 10, 1992, has been making observations of the global oceans with unprecedented accuracy since late September 1992. To meet the stringent measurement accuracy required for ocean circulation studies, a number of innovative improvements have been made to the mission design, including the first dual-frequency space-borne radar altimeter capable of retrieving the ionospheric delay of the radar signal, a three-frequency microwave radiometer for retrieving the signal delay caused by the water vapor in the troposphere, an optimal model of the Earth's gravity field and multiple satellite tracking systems for precision orbit determination. Additionally, the satellite also carries two experimental instruments to demonstrate new technologies: a single-frequency solid-state altimeter for the technology of low-power, low-weight altimeter and a Global Positioning System receiver for continuous, precise satellite tracking. The performance of the mission's measurement system has been tested by numerous verification studies. The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm. This global data set is being analyzed by an international team of 200 scientists for improved understanding of the global ocean circulation as well as the ocean tides, geodesy, and geodynamics, and ocean wind and waves. The mission is designed to last for at least 3 years with a possible extension to 6 years. The multiyear global data set will go a long way toward understanding the ocean circulation and its variability in relation to climate change. A summary of the mission's systems and their performance as well as the mission's science team is presented in the paper.



Looks like millimeter precision. These satellites really have given us a revolution in measurement and understanding of oceans and the heating of the oceans by AGW and consequent sea level rise, ENSO and the PDO, predicting the path of hurricanes and so on.

The satellites have even found sea rises and falls in the Mediterranean:

Quote:
Abstract

Using altimetry data of the Topex/Poseidon satellite available since early 1993, we show that the eastern Mediterranean sea level has been continuously rising during 1993–1999, at a rate up to 20 mm/yr southeast of Crete. Sea level rise is also observed in the Algerian-Provencal basin as well as in the Tyrrhenian and Adriatic seas. The north Ionian sea, on the other hand, shows an opposite trend, i.e., a sea level drop during the past seven years. Sea surface temperature trends are strongly correlated to sea level trends, indicating that at least part of the observed sea level change has a thermal origin. The recent Mediterranean sea level rise observed by Topex/Poseidon may be related to the warming trends reported from hydrographic cruises in the intermediate and deep waters of the eastern basin since the early 1990s, and of the western basin since the 1960s.


The Amazon basin:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1251805001016883

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #357 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:26pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:21pm:
Looks like millimeter precision.



Regurgitation does not make it so. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #358 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:28pm
 
Then stop spewing.
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Reply #359 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:30pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:02pm:
Quote:
The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm.


Yep. If you make the parameters wide enough even a camel will pass through he needles eye. Doesn't make it fit for purpose, but.
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Reply #360 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:33pm
 
If you know how a system drifts you can recalibrate it.

Sounds like millimeter precision to me!
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Reply #361 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:40pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:33pm:
If you know how a system drifts you can recalibrate it.

Sounds like millimeter precision to me!


Yes. A system that has a native resolution of 34mm can determine rises of 3mm. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #362 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 6:44pm
 
In 2017 Jason 2 satellite was showing signs of damage to its on–board systems. Its orbit was then lowered by several miles and it began mapping the topography of the sea floor, sea mounts and that kind of thing. This will help improve forecasting of tides and currents.

Quote:
Satellites have already revolutionized oceanography, and soon they will do the same for hydrology -- the study of water on land. The French/U.S. Surface Water and Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission will be at the forefront, carrying an innovative interferometer dubbed KaRin that marks a break with today's technologies.

dam you notes that these changes show the value the world scientific community places on the ocean altimetry program. "The measurement is so important, and the technology is fully demonstrated," he said. "In the long haul, ocean altimetry is an international commitment."


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2614/25-years-of-global-sea-level-data-and-countin...

A fascinating account.


How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?

Quote:
Abstract

Jason, the successor to the TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) mission, has been designed to continue seamlessly the decade-long altimetric sea level record initiated by T/P. Intersatellite calibration has determined the relative bias to an accuracy of 1.6 mm rms. Tide gauge calibration of the T/P record during its original mission shows a drift of −0.1 ± 0.4 mm/year. The tide gauge calibration of 20 months of nominal Jason data indicates a drift of −5.7 ± 1.0 mm/year, which may be attributable to errors in the orbit ephemeris and the Jason Microwave Radiometer. The analysis of T/P and Jason altimeter data over the past decade has resulted in a determination of global mean sea level change of +2.8 ± 0.4 mm/year.


Third time I posted this. Can you read it now or do I need to post it another few times?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #363 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:12pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 5:21pm:
The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system


What don't you understand about that and Jason-2 3.4cm native accuracy?

You can't get an accuracy greater than that native accuracy, no matter what wonderful statistical tricks you pull. Wink
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Reply #364 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:44pm
 
Very accurate, drifts are minor and the readings recalibrated. Why do you struggle so much?
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Reply #365 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:55pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
Very accurate, drifts are minor and the readings recalibrated. Why do you struggle so much?


Oh, How do you recalibrate a reading from an accuracy of 3.4cm or 34mm down to 3 to 4mm?
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Reply #366 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:05pm
 
You said you were in a signals unit? Electric/Electronic YOU said. Were you, as I suspect, the orderly room clerk? You are not going to tell me you were in the technical side? You never calibrated a galvanometer?

Oh boy, Lees, careful how you answer here. Desperation leaks out of you, don’t start babbling worse than usual.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #367 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:12pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:05pm:
You said you were in a signals unit? Electric/Electronic YOU said. Were you, as I suspect, the orderly room clerk? You are not going to tell me you were in the technical side?

Oh boy, Lees, careful how you answer here. Desperation leaks out of you, don’t start babbling worse than usual.


Yes. Must be desperation that makes me able to ask questions you can't answer.  Wink

But please humour us. Tell us how an instrument accurate to 3.4cm can be "re-calibrated" to read 3 to 4 mm. Don't forget it is on a satellite. They can't just switch to updated modules. Wink
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Reply #368 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:14pm
 
Ummmm those comments were all about drift?

So you were the orderly room clerk!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #369 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:14pm:
Ummmm those comments were all about drift?

So you were the orderly room clerk!


Wrong. YOUR comments may have been all about drift. My comments have been about instrument accuracy. Wink
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Reply #370 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:26pm
 
Yup, you were the orderly room clerk and know nothing of the technical side.

Sensitive instruments drift and have to be recalibrated. If you had taken ANY interest in the technical side of what you say was your unit you would have known that.

I bet you make a nice return of equipment loaned out an returned tho.

And make a nice pot of tea.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #371 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:26pm:
Sensitive instruments drift and have to be recalibrated.



Yes. That's why quite often they are placed in a stable oven to keep drift to a minimum. Of course calibration has nothing to do with the instruments native accuracy. A frequency counter may be accurate +- 2Hz/MHz and can be calibrated to zero, usually. If it can't be calibrated it has to be repaired.

By the way did you calculate the IR window in Harries? It is about 18THz - 48THz. 1THz is equal to 1,000,000Mhz.  Small eh? Wink
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Reply #372 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:48pm
 
So, what did you do in that “electrical/electronic + cipher” unit? Orderly room clerk wasn’t it? Pay books, leave rosters, returns of equipment on issue/unserviceable?

Because you know Jack Schidt about technical matters, right?

Bake electronic equipment?   Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #373 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:57pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:48pm:
Bake electronic equipment? 



Oh dear. You really show your incomprehension.

"A crystal oven is a temperature-controlled chamber used to maintain the quartz crystal in electronic crystal oscillators at a constant temperature, in order to prevent changes in the frequency due to variations in ambient temperature."

source: wiki.

Come back when you have a modicum of knowledge. Wink
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Reply #374 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:57pm
 
Poor Lees, the truth comes out.

No idea about technical matters.
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Reply #375 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:20am
 

Quote:
This is an animation of ocean surface currents from June 2005 to December 2007 from NASA satellites. Watch how bigger currents like the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic Ocean and the Kuroshio in the Pacific carry warm waters across thousands of miles at speeds greater than four miles per hour (six kilometers per hour); how coastal currents like the Agulhas in the Southern Hemisphere move equatorial waters toward Earth's poles; and how thousands of other ocean currents are confined to particular regions and form slow-moving, circular pools called eddies. Credit: NASA/SVS.



Extraordinary video of ocean currents mapped by the NASA/CNES Topex-Poseidon satellite.

This satellite and its successors have:
Quote:
. . .ushered in a new era of oceanography with the first highly accurate, global measurements of sea levels. That mission and its three successors, all named Jason, have continuously mapped global ocean currents and tides; opened our eyes to the global reach of El Niño and other climate events; created a quarter-century-long, extraordinarily precise record of global and regional sea level rise; and enabled improved forecasts of extreme weather events such as hurricanes, floods and droughts.



Heat storage in the oceans

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1196

Quote:
More than 90 percent of the heat from global warming is stored in the ocean, which means oceans are key players in global climate. Heat causes ocean water to expand, adding to sea level rise. Measuring both long-term sea level trends and the shape of the ocean surface related to currents, Topex-Poseidon and the Jason series provide two basic ingredients for understanding the ocean's role in global climate variations.


Note the cold water south of Greenland. This is likely ice that has calved or melted from Greenland. Being fresh water it floats on top of denser saline ocean water.


El Niño, La Niña, and more

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1197/
Quote:
Among Topex-Poseidon's early achievements was recording the full extent of a record El Niño in 1997 and the succeeding La Niña in 1999. Darker colors are sea levels lower than normal, lighter and white colors are higher than normal. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech.


Quite amazing.
Quote:
For decades, scientists could not predict how El Niño and other year-to-year ocean variations changed regional weather. That was partly because, using only ships and buoys, they couldn't observe the genesis and growth of these changes far out in the equatorial Pacific. Topex-Poseidon and the Jason satellites have given the first frequent, global views of the full extent and life cycles of El Niño and La Niña events. Lee-Lueng dam you of JPL — project scientist for the first two ocean altimetry missions — pointed out, "Topex-Poseidon allowed us to follow their evolution and showed that these events weren't limited to just the tropics. It also gave us evidence of even longer-lasting ocean variations." One of these is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, similar to El Niño and La Niña in character but with phases lasting up to several decades.



Tides

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1198/
Quote:
A numerical model of daily global tides using sea level data from Topex-Poseidon. Credit: ESR
.

Quote:
Topex-Poseidon made the first global maps of tides, which changed scientists' understanding of how tides dissipate. The data show that a third of tidal energy dissipates in the open ocean, playing important and previously unknown roles in mixing water within the ocean.



Forecasting

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1200/
Quote:
Jason-1 data contributed to this forecast of Hurricane Rita's track across the Gulf of Mexico in 2005. The storm track appears as a black line. Jason-1 observed a tongue of very warm water (red) in the gulf, 13-23 inches (35-60 centimeters) higher than surrounding water. Ocean heat can strengthen hurricane intensity. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Colorado.


Quote:
On smaller space and time scales, satellite altimetry measurements provide information directly useful for marine storm prediction. Hurricanes are fueled by heat stored in the ocean below, and since the upper ocean expands and contracts as it heats and cools, sea level height is a marker for water temperature and heat content. So it is hardly surprising that ocean altimetry data are routinely used in forecasting hurricane strength.

In 2014, an unexpected forecasting use for altimetry data became operational. Bangladesh, whose 46-year history has encompassed death-dealing river floods, uses Jason-2 measurements of river levels in its flood forecasting and warning system. Within the first year using these data, Bangladesh's system enabled the most accurate, long-lead flood warnings ever given for that nation.


That is some precise measurements by the Jason satellites!

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #376 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:21am
 
In 2017 Jason 2 satellite was showing signs of damage to its on–board systems. Its orbit was then lowered by several miles and it began mapping the topography of the sea floor, sea mounts and that kind of thing. This will help improve forecasting of tides and currents.

Quote:
Satellites have already revolutionized oceanography, and soon they will do the same for hydrology -- the study of water on land. The French/U.S. Surface Water and Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission will be at the forefront, carrying an innovative interferometer dubbed KaRin that marks a break with today's technologies.

dam you notes that these changes show the value the world scientific community places on the ocean altimetry program. "The measurement is so important, and the technology is fully demonstrated," he said. "In the long haul, ocean altimetry is an international commitment."


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2614/25-years-of-global-sea-level-data-and-countin...

A fascinating account.


How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?

Quote:
Abstract

Jason, the successor to the TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) mission, has been designed to continue seamlessly the decade-long altimetric sea level record initiated by T/P. Intersatellite calibration has determined the relative bias to an accuracy of 1.6 mm rms. Tide gauge calibration of the T/P record during its original mission shows a drift of −0.1 ± 0.4 mm/year. The tide gauge calibration of 20 months of nominal Jason data indicates a drift of −5.7 ± 1.0 mm/year, which may be attributable to errors in the orbit ephemeris and the Jason Microwave Radiometer. The analysis of T/P and Jason altimeter data over the past decade has resulted in a determination of global mean sea level change of +2.8 ± 0.4 mm/year.


From NASA:
Quote:
Abstract

TOPEX/POSEIDON is the first space mission specifically designed and conducted for studying the circulation of the world's oceans. The mission is jointly conducted by the United States and France. A state-of-the-art radar altimetry system is used to measure the precise height of sea level, from which information on the ocean circulation is obtained. The satellite, launched on August 10, 1992, has been making observations of the global oceans with unprecedented accuracy since late September 1992. To meet the stringent measurement accuracy required for ocean circulation studies, a number of innovative improvements have been made to the mission design, including the first dual-frequency space-borne radar altimeter capable of retrieving the ionospheric delay of the radar signal, a three-frequency microwave radiometer for retrieving the signal delay caused by the water vapor in the troposphere, an optimal model of the Earth's gravity field and multiple satellite tracking systems for precision orbit determination. Additionally, the satellite also carries two experimental instruments to demonstrate new technologies: a single-frequency solid-state altimeter for the technology of low-power, low-weight altimeter and a Global Positioning System receiver for continuous, precise satellite tracking. The performance of the mission's measurement system has been tested by numerous verification studies. The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm. This global data set is being analyzed by an international team of 200 scientists for improved understanding of the global ocean circulation as well as the ocean tides, geodesy, and geodynamics, and ocean wind and waves. The mission is designed to last for at least 3 years with a possible extension to 6 years. The multiyear global data set will go a long way toward understanding the ocean circulation and its variability in relation to climate change. A summary of the mission's systems and their performance as well as the mission's science team is presented in the paper.



Looks like millimeter precision. These satellites really have given us a revolution in measurement and understanding of oceans and the heating of the oceans by AGW and consequent sea level rise, ENSO and the PDO, predicting the path of hurricanes and so on.

The satellites have even found sea rises and falls in the Mediterranean:

Quote:
Abstract

Using altimetry data of the Topex/Poseidon satellite available since early 1993, we show that the eastern Mediterranean sea level has been continuously rising during 1993–1999, at a rate up to 20 mm/yr southeast of Crete. Sea level rise is also observed in the Algerian-Provencal basin as well as in the Tyrrhenian and Adriatic seas. The north Ionian sea, on the other hand, shows an opposite trend, i.e., a sea level drop during the past seven years. Sea surface temperature trends are strongly correlated to sea level trends, indicating that at least part of the observed sea level change has a thermal origin. The recent Mediterranean sea level rise observed by Topex/Poseidon may be related to the warming trends reported from hydrographic cruises in the intermediate and deep waters of the eastern basin since the early 1990s, and of the western basin since the 1960s.


The Amazon basin:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1251805001016883

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #377 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 1:29pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:21am:
How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?



Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:21am:
The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system;


Jason-2 accuracy 3.4cm.

Centimetres. Tens of millimetres., That's how accurate they are. Wink
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Reply #378 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 11:51pm
 

Quote:
This is an animation of ocean surface currents from June 2005 to December 2007 from NASA satellites. Watch how bigger currents like the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic Ocean and the Kuroshio in the Pacific carry warm waters across thousands of miles at speeds greater than four miles per hour (six kilometers per hour); how coastal currents like the Agulhas in the Southern Hemisphere move equatorial waters toward Earth's poles; and how thousands of other ocean currents are confined to particular regions and form slow-moving, circular pools called eddies. Credit: NASA/SVS.



Extraordinary video of ocean currents mapped by the NASA/CNES Topex-Poseidon satellite.

This satellite and its successors have:
Quote:
. . .ushered in a new era of oceanography with the first highly accurate, global measurements of sea levels. That mission and its three successors, all named Jason, have continuously mapped global ocean currents and tides; opened our eyes to the global reach of El Niño and other climate events; created a quarter-century-long, extraordinarily precise record of global and regional sea level rise; and enabled improved forecasts of extreme weather events such as hurricanes, floods and droughts.



Heat storage in the oceans

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1196

Quote:
More than 90 percent of the heat from global warming is stored in the ocean, which means oceans are key players in global climate. Heat causes ocean water to expand, adding to sea level rise. Measuring both long-term sea level trends and the shape of the ocean surface related to currents, Topex-Poseidon and the Jason series provide two basic ingredients for understanding the ocean's role in global climate variations.


Note the cold water south of Greenland. This is likely ice that has calved or melted from Greenland. Being fresh water it floats on top of denser saline ocean water.


El Niño, La Niña, and more

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1197/
Quote:
Among Topex-Poseidon's early achievements was recording the full extent of a record El Niño in 1997 and the succeeding La Niña in 1999. Darker colors are sea levels lower than normal, lighter and white colors are higher than normal. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech.


Quite amazing.
Quote:
For decades, scientists could not predict how El Niño and other year-to-year ocean variations changed regional weather. That was partly because, using only ships and buoys, they couldn't observe the genesis and growth of these changes far out in the equatorial Pacific. Topex-Poseidon and the Jason satellites have given the first frequent, global views of the full extent and life cycles of El Niño and La Niña events. Lee-Lueng dam you of JPL — project scientist for the first two ocean altimetry missions — pointed out, "Topex-Poseidon allowed us to follow their evolution and showed that these events weren't limited to just the tropics. It also gave us evidence of even longer-lasting ocean variations." One of these is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, similar to El Niño and La Niña in character but with phases lasting up to several decades.



Tides

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1198/
Quote:
A numerical model of daily global tides using sea level data from Topex-Poseidon. Credit: ESR
.

Quote:
Topex-Poseidon made the first global maps of tides, which changed scientists' understanding of how tides dissipate. The data show that a third of tidal energy dissipates in the open ocean, playing important and previously unknown roles in mixing water within the ocean.



Forecasting

https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1200/
Quote:
Jason-1 data contributed to this forecast of Hurricane Rita's track across the Gulf of Mexico in 2005. The storm track appears as a black line. Jason-1 observed a tongue of very warm water (red) in the gulf, 13-23 inches (35-60 centimeters) higher than surrounding water. Ocean heat can strengthen hurricane intensity. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Colorado.


Quote:
On smaller space and time scales, satellite altimetry measurements provide information directly useful for marine storm prediction. Hurricanes are fueled by heat stored in the ocean below, and since the upper ocean expands and contracts as it heats and cools, sea level height is a marker for water temperature and heat content. So it is hardly surprising that ocean altimetry data are routinely used in forecasting hurricane strength.

In 2014, an unexpected forecasting use for altimetry data became operational. Bangladesh, whose 46-year history has encompassed death-dealing river floods, uses Jason-2 measurements of river levels in its flood forecasting and warning system. Within the first year using these data, Bangladesh's system enabled the most accurate, long-lead flood warnings ever given for that nation.


That is some precise measurements by the Jason satellites!

Cont’d
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Reply #379 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 11:55pm
 
In 2017 Jason 2 satellite was showing signs of damage to its on–board systems. Its orbit was then lowered by several miles and it began mapping the topography of the sea floor, sea mounts and that kind of thing. This will help improve forecasting of tides and currents.

Quote:
Satellites have already revolutionized oceanography, and soon they will do the same for hydrology -- the study of water on land. The French/U.S. Surface Water and Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission will be at the forefront, carrying an innovative interferometer dubbed KaRin that marks a break with today's technologies.

dam you notes that these changes show the value the world scientific community places on the ocean altimetry program. "The measurement is so important, and the technology is fully demonstrated," he said. "In the long haul, ocean altimetry is an international commitment."


https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2614/25-years-of-global-sea-level-data-and-countin...

A fascinating account.


How accurate are the Poseidon & Jason satellites?

Quote:
Abstract

Jason, the successor to the TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) mission, has been designed to continue seamlessly the decade-long altimetric sea level record initiated by T/P. Intersatellite calibration has determined the relative bias to an accuracy of 1.6 mm rms. Tide gauge calibration of the T/P record during its original mission shows a drift of −0.1 ± 0.4 mm/year. The tide gauge calibration of 20 months of nominal Jason data indicates a drift of −5.7 ± 1.0 mm/year, which may be attributable to errors in the orbit ephemeris and the Jason Microwave Radiometer. The analysis of T/P and Jason altimeter data over the past decade has resulted in a determination of global mean sea level change of +2.8 ± 0.4 mm/year.


From NASA:
Quote:
Abstract

TOPEX/POSEIDON is the first space mission specifically designed and conducted for studying the circulation of the world's oceans. The mission is jointly conducted by the United States and France. A state-of-the-art radar altimetry system is used to measure the precise height of sea level, from which information on the ocean circulation is obtained. The satellite, launched on August 10, 1992, has been making observations of the global oceans with unprecedented accuracy since late September 1992. To meet the stringent measurement accuracy required for ocean circulation studies, a number of innovative improvements have been made to the mission design, including the first dual-frequency space-borne radar altimeter capable of retrieving the ionospheric delay of the radar signal, a three-frequency microwave radiometer for retrieving the signal delay caused by the water vapor in the troposphere, an optimal model of the Earth's gravity field and multiple satellite tracking systems for precision orbit determination. Additionally, the satellite also carries two experimental instruments to demonstrate new technologies: a single-frequency solid-state altimeter for the technology of low-power, low-weight altimeter and a Global Positioning System receiver for continuous, precise satellite tracking. The performance of the mission's measurement system has been tested by numerous verification studies. The results indicate that the root-sum-square accuracy of a single-pass sea level measurement is 4.7 cm for the TOPEX system and 5.1 cm for the POSEIDON system; both are more than a factor of 2 better than the requirement of 13.7 cm. This global data set is being analyzed by an international team of 200 scientists for improved understanding of the global ocean circulation as well as the ocean tides, geodesy, and geodynamics, and ocean wind and waves. The mission is designed to last for at least 3 years with a possible extension to 6 years. The multiyear global data set will go a long way toward understanding the ocean circulation and its variability in relation to climate change. A summary of the mission's systems and their performance as well as the mission's science team is presented in the paper.



Looks like millimeter precision. These satellites really have given us a revolution in measurement and understanding of oceans and the heating of the oceans by AGW and consequent sea level rise, ENSO and the PDO, predicting the path of hurricanes and so on.

The satellites have even found sea rises and falls in the Mediterranean:

Quote:
Abstract

Using altimetry data of the Topex/Poseidon satellite available since early 1993, we show that the eastern Mediterranean sea level has been continuously rising during 1993–1999, at a rate up to 20 mm/yr southeast of Crete. Sea level rise is also observed in the Algerian-Provencal basin as well as in the Tyrrhenian and Adriatic seas. The north Ionian sea, on the other hand, shows an opposite trend, i.e., a sea level drop during the past seven years. Sea surface temperature trends are strongly correlated to sea level trends, indicating that at least part of the observed sea level change has a thermal origin. The recent Mediterranean sea level rise observed by Topex/Poseidon may be related to the warming trends reported from hydrographic cruises in the intermediate and deep waters of the eastern basin since the early 1990s, and of the western basin since the 1960s.


The Amazon basin:dings
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1251805001016883

Those findings are astounding!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #380 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:43am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 11:55pm:
Those findings are astounding!



Yes. Accuracy as much as 3.4cm for Jason-2 the other two are worse. Keep bringing it to the front; it won't make it any better. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #381 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:45am
 
Keep bullshitting—that will keep AGW away, in what passes for your mind.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #382 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 12:32pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:45am:
Keep bullshitting—that will keep AGW away, in what passes for your mind.


That's what the science says. But you of course are impervious. Wink
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Reply #383 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 12:35pm
 
Babbling again.
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Reply #384 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:05pm
 
How much did AGW add to Hurricane Harvey.

The rainfall associated with it is smashing all Texan records! AGW causes more evaporation and, of course, subsequent precipitation.


https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/08/did-climate-change-intensify...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #385 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:10pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:05pm:
How much did AGW add to Hurricane Harvey.



AGW was so good there were 4324 days between major hurricanes making landfall in the USA. Category 3 Hurricane Wilma made landfall in Florida on October 24th, 2005.
All that extreme weather. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #386 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:11pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:05pm:
How much did AGW add to Hurricane Harvey.

The rainfall associated with it is smashing all Texan records! AGW causes more evaporation and, of course, subsequent precipitation.


https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/08/did-climate-change-intensify...

It's unmeasurable Monk because it is a spurious claim based on flawed opinion not science.
There have been and will be greater and lesser weather events.

But I already pointed out Galveston to you didn't I and you ignored it as you usually do.
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Reply #387 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:09pm
 
Houston’s flying boats:

...
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Reply #388 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:15pm
 
So they had a lot of rain and floods.
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Reply #389 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:09am
 
A shitload of rain.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #390 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 1:40pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:09am:
A shitload of rain.


"A dramatic photograph circulating on Twitter appeared to show several planes floating in a deep lake that was once an airport. The airport pictured here is LaGuardia in New York, and it’s a mock-up, meant to show the potential effect of climate change on the transportation hub by 2100, based on data from Climate Central."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/28/no-the-shark-pic...

OOPS. Wink
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Reply #391 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 1:44pm
 
It was still a shitload of rain.
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Reply #392 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 2:06pm
 
...

Houston 1935 flood. 54.4 ft.

Of course floods can't be compared. Different infrastructure.
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Reply #393 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 4:07pm
 
1935 was long time ago.

1935 11" of rainfall. Think Houston has had more than that already and

Quote:
Another 38-64 centimetres of rain is expected in the coming days.


So much more rain in 2017.

Wow!
Quote:
ABC News meteorologists say about 20 to 40 inches of rain has already fallen in the Houston area. As of mid-Monday, the highest rain was 39.72 inches near Dayton, Texas. Rainfall totals could reach 50 inches by the end of the week.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/epic-catastrophic-flooding-devastates-houston-rainfall-...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #394 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 5:23pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 4:07pm:
1935 was long time ago.

1935 11" of rainfall. Think Houston has had more than that already and



"20.6" in 35 hours over Westfield, TX. Houston reported 5.52" of rain. Satsuma in northwest Harris County had 16.49" of rain. Bayous were 52 feet above normal. The city's pumping station was unable to supply water for a few days and the city had no protection against fire. Buffalo Bayou at Houston 54.4 feet with 40,000 cfs. Buffalo Bayou at Addicks 85.6'. 2/3 of rural Harris County was flooded. Halls Bayou was over its banks. Spring and Cypress Creeks were out of their banks. (1)(4)(3)(6)"

http://www.wxresearch.com/almanac/houflood.html

Not sure where you got 11 inches from and over what time period.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 4:07pm:
Quote:
Another 38-64 centimetres of rain is expected in the coming days.


So much more rain in 2017.



So up to another 2.5 inches.

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Reply #395 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:59pm
 
Prof Rignot said his prediction of 2050 being the time when the major ice sheets start disappearing depended on no “non–linear” events.

Here is one non–linear event. Oops!

Quote:
Abstract

High-latitude ecosystems have the capacity to release large amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere in response to increasing temperatures, representing a potentially significant positive feedback within the climate system. Here, we combine aircraft and tower observations of atmospheric CO2 with remote sensing data and meteorological products to derive temporally and spatially resolved year-round CO2 fluxes across Alaska during 2012–2014. We find that tundra ecosystems were a net source of CO2 to the atmosphere annually, with especially high rates of respiration during early winter (October through December). Long-term records at Barrow, AK, suggest that CO2 emission rates from North Slope tundra have increased during the October through December period by 73% ± 11% since 1975, and are correlated with rising summer temperatures. Together, these results imply increasing early winter respiration and net annual emission of CO2 in Alaska, in response to climate warming. Our results provide evidence that the decadal-scale increase in the amplitude of the CO2 seasonal cycle may be linked with increasing biogenic emissions in the Arctic, following the growing season. Early winter respiration was not well simulated by the Earth System Models used to forecast future carbon fluxes in recent climate assessments. Therefore, these assessments may underestimate the carbon release from Arctic soils in response to a warming climate.


http://www.pnas.org/content/114/21/5361

Ummm, not good.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #396 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 8:46pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:59pm:
Ummm, not good.



Yeah. Too many weasel words. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:59pm:
Prof Rignot said his prediction of 2050 being the time when the major ice sheets start disappearing depended on no “non–linear” events.

Here is one non–linear event. Oops!


Then of course the non-linear reaction of CO2. it being logarithmic. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #397 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 8:52pm
 
here ya go monkey Boy
lets concentrate closer to home eh.

I recall quite a few Hurricanes/Cyclones/Typhoons here...  Tracy anyone?  Katrina?

I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror
The wide brown land for me!

Oh and Bushfires anyone?

Yep we get all manner of NATURAL Disasters.

You don't have to focus on a weather event in the US Monk, we have weather here too.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #398 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:51am
 
lee wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:59pm:
Ummm, not good.



Yeah. Too many weasel words. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:59pm:
Prof Rignot said his prediction of 2050 being the time when the major ice sheets start disappearing depended on no “non–linear” events.

Here is one non–linear event. Oops!


Then of course the non-linear reaction of CO2. it being logarithmic. Wink

And yet the effect of CO2 is linear. Any idea why?

Re the “weasel words:”
Quote:
We find that tundra ecosystems were a net source of CO2 to the atmosphere annually, with especially high rates of respiration during early winter


No weasel words there!
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #399 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:16am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:51am:
And yet the effect of CO2 is linear. Any idea why?



Only because you don't understand the effect of CO2 is logarithmic. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #400 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:48am
 
No, it is logarithmic—but expresses linearly. Any idea why?

This should not be a hard question as it has been discussed before.
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Reply #401 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 12:40pm
 
Houston rainfall:

Quote:
Capital Climate‏ @capital_climate  1h1 hour ago

Houston #IAH 2-day unofficial 21.79" so far crushes old 2-day record 11.84 & every interval <= 26 days!

#Harvey #houstonflooding #climate

...

Quote:
Capital Climate‏ @capital_climate  1h1 hour ago

Houston #IAH 2017 rainfall to date 70.79" = 4th wettest YEAR on record.
~2" from top wettest with 4 months left.
#Harvey #houstonflooding


...
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Reply #402 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 3:54pm
 
wow. Comparing monthly and yearly figures and tells us what about Cyclone Harvey?

It seems it was a wet year, it seems it was a wet month.
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Reply #403 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 4:33pm
 
" It's a fact: climate change made Hurricane Harvey more deadly
Michael E Mann"

"Harvey was almost certainly more intense than it would have been in the absence of human-caused warming, which means stronger winds, more wind damage and a larger storm surge."

" Finally, the more tenuous but potentially relevant climate factors: part of what has made Harvey such a devastating storm is the way it has stalled near the coast. It continues to pummel Houston and surrounding regions with a seemingly endless deluge, which will likely top out at nearly 4ft (1.22m) of rainfall over a days-long period before it is done.

The stalling is due to very weak prevailing winds, which are failing to steer the storm off to sea, allowing it to spin around and wobble back and forth. This pattern, in turn, is associated with a greatly expanded subtropical high pressure system over much of the US at the moment, with the jet stream pushed well to the north. This pattern of subtropical expansion is predicted in model simulations of human-caused climate change."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/28/climate-change-hurricane-h...

I thought that with stronger winds there would be stronger winds pushing the hurricane away, no let it stall over Houston. Wink

Of course with these "increased extreme weather events" such as hurricanes, they will have to tie down wind generators. Also because it is pissing down rain solar panels aren't going to work.

Renewables in a "climate change" world. Wink
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Reply #404 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:05pm
 
Renewables and nuclear would begin to reduce emissions lessening the severity of extreme weather events. AGW causing more evaporation and subsequent precipitation leads to heavier rainfall in some locations.

An ultrahigh voltage DC grid would allow power from other, unaffected areas renewables and nuclear power to come in to Houston. Mind you, hurricane + endless heavy rain would probably overpower any power source/transmission network.
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Reply #405 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:48am:
No, it is logarithmic—but expresses linearly. Any idea why?

This should not be a hard question as it has been discussed before.


Any answer yet Lees?
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Reply #406 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm
 
Consequences, hmmmm.

Quote:
as the self-styled "world capital of the oil and gas industry", there's a connection between rising global greenhouse gas levels and the extreme weather now being inflicted that some of your residents have understood for decades and had a hand in.

Houston and its surrounds are home to some 5000 energy-related firms, 17 of which are counted among the Fortune 500 list of largest US companies.


Ah yeah, kinda ironic, karma.

Quote:
One thing that hasn't changed for almost 200 years is scientists' basic understanding humans could alter the chemistry of the atmosphere. By releasing more carbon dioxide, methane (also known as natural gas), and other greenhouse gases, the atmosphere would trap more heat and alter our climate in the process.

The links between fossil fuels and climate change – clear to all but a handful of (often industry-funded) scientists – were hardly promotional talking points oil firms have been keen to trumpet.


Yeah, clear and not “correlation = causation” as a certain loud mouthed, small brained idiot keeps posting.

Quote:
In fact, as an important research paper by Harvard University researchers Geoffrey Supran and Naomi Oreskes released last week showed, the largest of them – ExxonMobil – deliberately told the public a story at odds with their own research.


Yeah and probably paid other scientists and others to prostitute their intellect to spout the denier crap. Names like JoNova, Ian Plimer and David Dubyne.

Quote:
By stoking doubts about the climate change consequences of burning fossils, the behemoth misled voters for four decades, successfully stymieing demands for action in the US and abroad, including in Australia.

From the department of the bleeding obvious.

Quote:
Those seeking to discourage debate about Harvey's climate boost will argue there hasn't been a major (category three or stronger) hurricane crossing the continental US coast in almost 12 years


They want MORE hurricanes?

Quote:
Scientists and climate models, though, argue a warming planet won't necessarily equate to more frequent and more intense tropical cyclones in all basins every year. Decadal patterns are what you need to watch.

The western Pacific is one basin where scientists are increasingly confident of a discernable trend that is not good news for the large populations in China, Japan and the Philippines – among others – that are exposed. One study last year found as much as a four-fold increase in the number of super typhoons.


Hmmm the PDO? Must be.

Quote:
Indeed, scientists are increasingly able to tease out a global warming signal in extreme weather events of many kinds.

These include a study last year that found the probability of an extreme rainfall event in the central US Gulf Coast had increased 1.4 times because of anthropogenic climate change.

A separate study in 2013 examined, among others, the contribution of climate change to super storm Sandy, which left a damage bill of $US60 billion ($75 billion) across the north-eastern US in 2012.

"Our future scenarios of Sandy-level return intervals are concerning, as they imply that events of less and less severity (from less powerful storms) will produce similar impacts," the paper found. "Further aggravating, the frequency and intensity of major storms/surges are likely to increase in a warming climate."


Wonder what the implications are for northern Australia?

Quote:
Andrew King, a climate extremes research fellow at the University of Melbourne and the ARC Centre of Excellence for Climate System Science, said the complexity of cyclones makes it difficult to attribute climate change to events such as Hurricane Harvey.

"These are hard to simulate, extreme cyclones, on the grid scale of climate models," he says.

What is clearer, though, is a warming atmosphere makes heavy rainfall events more possible. Each degree increase allows the atmosphere to hold roughly 7 per cent more moisture.

Similarly, rising sea levels means any storm surge accompanying a cyclone will be worse. "Even a small increase in sea levels creates a big increase of the extent of a storm surge going inland," King said.

Sea levels are rising globally – at about 3.4 millimetres a year – as glaciers and land-based ice sheets melt, and warming oceans expand.

Michael Mann, a prominent US climate scientist based at Pennsylvania State University, noted in a Facebook post how unusually warm Gulf waters, provided the energy for Harvey's near-record rate of intensification as it neared the coast.


Unusually warm waters, what you expect with AGW. And floods get a boost from sea level rising. King tide, storm surge etc—they start at a higher level, more likely to penetrate sea defences and will flood deeper and further inland.

Quote:
"This pattern, in turn, is associated with a greatly expanded subtropical high pressure system over much of the US right now, with the jet stream pushed well to the north," Mann says. "This pattern of subtropical expansion is predicted in model simulations of human-caused climate change."

When the clean-up eventually begins in Houston and other regions battered and drenched in this week's tempest, questions about what protection will be needed for the next big storm will no doubt surface.


http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/houston-you-have-a-problem-and-...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #407 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:21pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
In fact, as an important research paper by Harvard University researchers Geoffrey Supran and Naomi Oreskes released last week showed, the largest of them – ExxonMobil – deliberately told the public a story at odds with their own research.



Not that schlock again. Their own research was published. Did they know more than "climate scientists"? Must be a preety poor lot of "climate scientists". Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
By stoking doubts about the climate change consequences of burning fossils, the behemoth misled voters for four decades, successfully stymieing demands for action in the US and abroad, including in Australia.

From the department of the bleeding obvious.



And so the fault is that people believed Exxon/Mobil and not the "climate scientists"? Not that the "climate scientists" couldn't convince the public? Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
Quote:
Those seeking to discourage debate about Harvey's climate boost will argue there hasn't been a major (category three or stronger) hurricane crossing the continental US coast in almost 12 years


They want MORE hurricanes?



Nope. The AGW alarmists keep telling us about increased extreme weather. 12 years is soooo long. Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
Scientists and climate models, though, argue a warming planet won't necessarily equate to more frequent and more intense tropical cyclones in all basins every year. Decadal patterns are what you need to watch.



That's not what they have been claiming. More often and more intense is the mantra. Wink

"There has been a substantial increase in most measures of Atlantic hurricane activity since the early 1980s, the period during which high quality satellite data are available.,, These include measures of intensity, frequency, and duration as well as the number of strongest (Category 4 and 5) storms. The recent increases in activity are linked, in part, to higher sea surface temperatures in the region that Atlantic hurricanes form in and move through."

http://nca2014.globalchange.gov/highlights/report-findings/extreme-weather

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
Indeed, scientists are increasingly able to tease out a global warming signal in extreme weather events of many kinds.



Yes. Torture the data long enough, it will confess.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
These include a study last year that found the probability of an extreme rainfall event in the central US Gulf Coast had increased 1.4 times because of anthropogenic climate change.



Or merely more likely because it had been 12 years since the last one? Wink

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
Michael Mann, a prominent US climate scientist based at Pennsylvania State University, noted in a Facebook post how unusually warm Gulf waters, provided the energy for Harvey's near-record rate of intensification as it neared the coast.



yes, and as I noted earlier he was blaming weak winds for Harvey being stationary, causing it to dump so much water. AGW can do anything, bigger storms and less wind to low them away. Wink

Proudly brought to you by super alarmist  Peter Hannam. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #408 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:36pm
 
Add another one -

"Climate change is fuelling more intense and damaging storms in Australia, our new report has found."

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/stormsreport

Brought to you by our very own Will Steffen of the Australian Climate Council. You have lauded him in the past, JM.

"As our planet continues to warm, intense and destructive storms are likely to become more and more frequent over many land regions. In fact, they already have."

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/climate-change/changing-atmosphere/intense-stor...
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #409 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:41pm
 
Ah, the cry of the wounded denier.

Will Steffen? Did I quote him some time? Can’t remember.
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Reply #410 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:42pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:07pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:48am:
No, it is logarithmic—but expresses linearly. Any idea why?

This should not be a hard question as it has been discussed before.


Any answer yet Lees?

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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #411 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:14pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:41pm:
Ah, the cry of the wounded denier.

Will Steffen? Did I quote him some time? Can’t remember.


You dick. I just completely destroyed what Peter Hannam wrote. And you won't admit it.

Poor sad little old man, losing grip on reality.
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Reply #412 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:18pm
 
Completely destroyed, eh? Ummm, how do I put this gently.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Reply #413 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:20pm
 
BTW poor sad little denier, any answer re CO2 effecting climate linearly when its effect is logarithmic yet?
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Reply #414 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:23pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:18pm:
Completely destroyed, eh? Ummm, how do I put this gently.

Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha



That must be why you haven't tried to refute what I wrote. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Reply #415 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:30pm
 
How do you refute rubbish?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #416 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:33pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:30pm:
How do you refute rubbish?



Well you could start by refuting that climate scientists have not said there will be more storms and more intense storms. Wink
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Reply #417 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:31pm
 
Any answer to my question on CO2 yet Lees?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #418 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:53pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:41pm:
Ah, the cry of the wounded denier.

Will Steffen? Did I quote him some time? Can’t remember.

Please don't quote Will Liar Steffen, he just makes people throw up.
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Reply #419 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:54pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:14pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:41pm:
Ah, the cry of the wounded denier.

Will Steffen? Did I quote him some time? Can’t remember.


You dick. I just completely destroyed what Peter Hannam wrote. And you won't admit it.

Poor sad little old man, losing grip on reality.

yeah Hannam is the SMH's very own Climate Clucker.  We have Monk of course.  But this guy is incredibly lame. Cheesy
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Reply #420 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:20am
 
Abstract of the Oreskes paper:
Quote:
Abstract
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View all Environ. Res. Lett. video abstracts

This paper assesses whether ExxonMobil Corporation has in the past misled the general public about climate change. We present an empirical document-by-document textual content analysis and comparison of 187 climate change communications from ExxonMobil, including peer-reviewed and non-peer-reviewed publications, internal company documents, and paid, editorial-style advertisements ('advertorials') in The New York Times. We examine whether these communications sent consistent messages about the state of climate science and its implications—specifically, we compare their positions on climate change as real, human-caused, serious, and solvable. In all four cases, we find that as documents become more publicly accessible, they increasingly communicate doubt. This discrepancy is most pronounced between advertorials and all other documents. For example, accounting for expressions of reasonable doubt, 83% of peer-reviewed papers and 80% of internal documents acknowledge that climate change is real and human-caused, yet only 12% of advertorials do so, with 81% instead expressing doubt. We conclude that ExxonMobil contributed to advancing climate science—by way of its scientists' academic publications—but promoted doubt about it in advertorials. Given this discrepancy, we conclude that ExxonMobil misled the public. Our content analysis also examines ExxonMobil's discussion of the risks of stranded fossil fuel assets. We find the topic discussed and sometimes quantified in 24 documents of various types, but absent from advertorials. Finally, based on the available documents, we outline ExxonMobil's strategic approach to climate change research and communication, which helps to contextualize our findings.


http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa815f

Sounds legit. There was the article on that scientist working for Exxon that confirms it.
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Reply #421 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:33am
 
The study into the increased floods in the Gulf states:

Quote:
Abstract. A stationary low pressure system and elevated levels of precipitable water provided a nearly continuous source of precipitation over Louisiana, United States (US), starting around 10 August 2016. Precipitation was heaviest in the region broadly encompassing the city of Baton Rouge, with a 3-day maximum found at a station in Livingston, LA (east of Baton Rouge), from 12 to 14 August 2016 (648.3 mm, 25.5 inches). The intense precipitation was followed by inland flash flooding and river flooding and in subsequent days produced additional backwater flooding. On 16 August, Louisiana officials reported that 30 000 people had been rescued, nearly 10 600 people had slept in shelters on the night of 14 August and at least 60 600 homes had been impacted to varying degrees. As of 17 August, the floods were reported to have killed at least 13 people. As the disaster was unfolding, the Red Cross called the flooding the worst natural disaster in the US since Super Storm Sandy made landfall in New Jersey on 24 October 2012. Before the floodwaters had receded, the media began questioning whether this extreme event was caused by anthropogenic climate change. To provide the necessary analysis to understand the potential role of anthropogenic climate change, a rapid attribution analysis was launched in real time using the best readily available observational data and high-resolution global climate model simulations.

The objective of this study is to show the possibility of performing rapid attribution studies when both observational and model data and analysis methods are readily available upon the start. It is the authors' aspiration that the results be used to guide further studies of the devastating precipitation and flooding event. Here, we present a first estimate of how anthropogenic climate change has affected the likelihood of a comparable extreme precipitation event in the central US Gulf Coast. While the flooding event of interest triggering this study occurred in south Louisiana, for the purposes of our analysis, we have defined an extreme precipitation event by taking the spatial maximum of annual 3-day inland maximum precipitation over the region of 29–31° N, 85–95° W, which we refer to as the central US Gulf Coast. Using observational data, we find that the observed local return time of the 12–14 August precipitation event in 2016 is about 550 years (95 % confidence interval (CI): 450–1450). The probability for an event like this to happen anywhere in the region is presently 1 in 30 years (CI 11–110). We estimate that these probabilities and the intensity of extreme precipitation events of this return time have increased since 1900. A central US Gulf Coast extreme precipitation event has effectively become more likely in 2016 than it was in 1900. The global climate models tell a similar story; in the most accurate analyses, the regional probability of 3-day extreme precipitation increases by more than a factor of 1.4 due to anthropogenic climate change. The magnitude of the shift in probabilities is greater in the 25 km (higher-resolution) climate model than in the 50 km model. The evidence for a relation to El Niño half a year earlier is equivocal, with some analyses showing a positive connection and others none.


https://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci.net/21/897/2017/

12 years since the last flood babbled Cpl Lees. Nope—major flood from a rain event last year in Louisiana. Guess that destruction of the smh article was less than total.

That a weak high pressure system blocked the hurricane from advancing is not unusual, plenty of times in southern Australian weather reports we hear of a system blocking other weather systems. Arctic air that spills south often gets blocked by a high pressure systems bringing days of blizzards and snow etc where the Arctic air stays until the blocking system moves or weakens.
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Reply #422 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 10:08am
 
Abstract of the study into more intense typhoons:

Quote:
Abstract
Super typhoons (STYs), intense tropical cyclones of the western North Pacific, rank among the most destructive natural hazards globally. The violent winds of these storms induce deep mixing of the upper ocean, resulting in strong sea surface cooling and making STYs highly sensitive to ocean density stratification. Although a few studies examined the potential impacts of changes in ocean thermal structure on future tropical cyclones, they did not take into account changes in near-surface salinity. Here, using a combination of observations and coupled climate model simulations, we show that freshening of the upper ocean, caused by greater rainfall in places where typhoons form, tends to intensify STYs by reducing their ability to cool the upper ocean. We further demonstrate that the strengthening effect of this freshening over the period 1961–2008 is ∼53% stronger than the suppressive effect of temperature, whereas under twenty-first century projections, the positive effect of salinity is about half of the negative effect of ocean temperature changes.


https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms13670

The whole paper is available if Cpl Lees wants to use his pretend scientific skills to “demolish” the paper.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #423 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:04pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:20am:
Sounds legit. There was the article on that scientist working for Exxon that confirms it.



That's why she had to use Cook's flawed methodlgy? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #424 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:06pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:33am:
12 years since the last flood babbled Cpl Lees. Nope—major flood from a rain event last year in Louisiana. Guess that destruction of the smh article was less than total.



Now you are confusing a rain event with a "major hurricane" cat 3 or larger? Oh dear. Now yo have really lost it.
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Reply #425 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 1:50pm
 
You don’t think twice as much rain as the previous record a severe weather event?
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #426 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 3:05pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 1:50pm:
You don’t think twice as much rain as the previous record a severe weather event?


It is not the same as a Major Hurricane.

Please show it was twice as much rain in Houston.

The rainfall record in one day is "10.34 inches on June 26, 1989"

http://www.weather.gov/hgx/climate_iah_normals_summary

Courtesy NOAA and National Weather Service.

HOUSTON WEATHER FORECAST OFFICE      43.38

http://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov/discussions/nfdscc1.html

Rainfall. Harvey - Houston. inches

A measure of intensity is daily rainfall. Total rainfall depends on how long it hangs around.
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Reply #427 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 3:10pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 10:08am:
Abstract of the study into more intense typhoons:



Yet I wasn't saying  "Climate Scientists" hadn't published stuff on intensity. I was commenting on Hannam, saying it didn't happen "every year". 11 or12 years is a lot longer then 1 year. According to the mantra it should have happened before now. Wink
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Reply #428 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
"By Joe Bastardi
August 29, 2017, Reprinted with the permission of Weatherbell.com"

"I was emailed this quote, supposedly from him. It’s making the rounds in the skeptic community. It was in the Guardian

    The stalling is due to very weak prevailing winds, which are failing to steer the storm off to sea, allowing it to spin around and wobble back and forth. This pattern, in turn, is associated with a greatly expanded subtropical high pressure system over much of the US at the moment, with the jet stream pushed well to the north. This pattern of subtropical expansion is predicted in model simulations of human-caused climate change.

He unwittingly describes THE EXACT OPPOSITE EFFECT to what is going on.

He could not have even looked at the 5 day means! There was no expansive subtropical high. Quite the contrary there was a well forecast MJO phase 2, with a major cool trough in the 5 day means trapping the hurricane. "

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/08/31/michael-manns-claims-that-harvey-was-caus...

Michael E Mann, he may have Physics. But he knows schickem about atmospherics. Wink





p
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Reply #429 - Sep 17th, 2017 at 1:36pm
 
LOL....
fact
2017 biggest snow season in Australia for years
snow season extended.
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Reply #430 - Sep 17th, 2017 at 9:01pm
 



John Casey Exposes Global Warming Fraud



Published on Feb 9, 2014
In this video Mr. Casey exposes the global warming fraud and brings your attention to an ice age threat which is threatening our planet and the peak point is about 2030 - 2031. This video has been uploaded with Mr. John Casey's written permission and is copyright of Mr. John Casey.

Mr. John L. Casey is the former White House space program adviser, consultant to NASA Headquarters, and space shuttle engineer. He is the President of Space and Science Research Center http://www.spaceandscience.net

He is one of America's most successful climate change researchers and climate prediction experts. Mr. Casey is the leading advocate in the US for a national and international plan to prepare for the next climate change to one of a dangerous cold climate era. This new cold era is caused by a historic decline in the Sun's energy output, what he calls a "solar hibernation."

He is the author of the internationally acclaimed climate science book, "Cold Sun" which describes the rationale for understanding why global warming has ended and the effects of the new cold climate era.
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