Australian Politics Forum - Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights

Frank

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #150 - May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm

Auggie wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Because they don't know how to interpret the Quran, nor explain their views. No book can claim the eternal word of God. I don't even think the Quran specifically claims it to be so; I think it's a Hadith or something. Monotheistic faiths are by nature exclusivist - they claim to be the right one - that has nothing to do with spirituality as it does with power and control. Islam is no different in that respect to Christianity or Judaism.

This is simply self-contradictory, reflexive ignorance writ large.

Who does know how to interpret the koran?
The Koran is claimed by Muslims to be the eternal word of god. Ahok was jailed just for that reason.
You can claim to be the right one without threatening death to all who turn their back on you.

Power and control - you talk about these things as if they were objective things to be picked up by anyone.

Auggie wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

moses wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 11:25am:

Why are muslims the bane of the present day earth?

They've haven't always been the 'bane of the earth'.

They have. What is new and positive that Islam has brought to the world?

Nothing.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #151 - May 18^th, 2017 at 3:16pm

Karnal wrote Reply #146 - Yesterday at 4:40pm:

Quote:

Quote:

1 Samuel 18:27King James Version (KJV) Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

In the Bible, he's hailed as a man after G_d's own heart:

Quote:

1 Samuel 13:14King James Version (KJV). But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Quote:

Acts 13:22King James Version (KJV). And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

David was such a high grade of Jew, your prophet Yeheshua is said to be his descendant.

Umm so what?

As I recall I asked you to:

please show where the Jews teach that the highest grade of Jew must slay and be slain.

Please show the relevant chapter in Jewish teachings which equates to the hate and malevolent intent in chapter nine of the qur'an.

To make it easy for you, simply show the pertinent Jewish teachings which cause and motivate Jews to be the enemy of the rest of the world, as is the case with islam and muslims who follow the qur'an to the letter, utterly believing they have a divine right to be torturers and mass murderers, as decreed in the qur'an.

Now as far as I can see your offered examples sing the praises of David and promote him as being suitable to be the leader of his people, I see nothing which says that it is an eternal ongoing requirement for all Jews to go on the rampage and slay and be slain.

You have not shown a chapter in Jewish ideology which equates to the degeneracy of chapter nine in the qur'an.

So we are back where we started.

muslims are the terrorists of the world today 2017, they commit their atrocities in the full knowledge that they are doctrinally a grade higher than any other muslim, according to allah, muhammad and the qur'an.

So the valid question for muslims today is: what are they going to do about the commands / teachings / verses in their religion which cause and motivate islamic terrorism across the globe.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #152 - May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm

AugCaesarustus wrote Reply #148 - Yesterday at 6:32pm

Quote:

There are many verses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. There's also a verse in Numbers 13 (I believe) where the soldiers after a battle spared the women and children, and Moses replied something along the lines of: "why have you spared the women; go and kill all of them, and TAKE FOR YOURSELF THE YOUNG WOMEN....'

In Deuteronomy there is a universal call to kill apostates.

Indeed they do, they refer to battles and laws of long ago, there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them. That is why the Jew of today 2017 is light years ahead of the muslim in the civilization stakes.

Quote:

Because they don't know how to interpret the Quran, nor explain their views. No book can claim the eternal word of God. I don't even think the Quran specifically claims it to be so; I think it's a Hadith or something. Monotheistic faiths are by nature exclusivist - they claim to be the right one - that has nothing to do with spirituality as it does with power and control. Islam is no different in that respect to Christianity or Judaism.

And around we go again, the old interpretation excuse.

It's just so much rubbish.

It's got nothing to do with interpretation at all.

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

That's the issue plain and simple.

islam causes and motivates the present day muslim carnage around the globe.

What are muslims going to do about it?

Quote:

They've haven't always been the 'bane of the earth'. So what does that tell you? That it has nothing to do with the religion of Islam, but with a minority who are acting like Fascists. I'm not saying they're not dangerous; they are, but we shouldn't describe the totality of a religion in that way.

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

muslims began as the enemy of mankind in the 7th century, today nearly 1400 years later they still are engaging in religious terrorism globably.

islam is the problem, no amount of excuses will ever change this fact.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #153 - May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

They have. What is new and positive that Islam has brought to the world?

They weren't the bane of the earth during most of 20th Century.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #154 - May 18^th, 2017 at 3:33pm

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

Another example is the Mughal Empire during the period of Akbar the Great when he actually encourage the inter-mixing of faiths.

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moses

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #155 - May 18^th, 2017 at 4:36pm

AugCaesarustus wrote:
Quote:

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

I said as me "there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them "

Quote:

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

My question has always been: What are the muslims going to do with the commands / teachings / verses of islam which cause and motivate islamic terrorism?

Quote:

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

If Moṣaddeq had been an honourable person he would have upheld his oil treaty obligations. However his flawed belief that the west could not survive without Irans' oil was his downfall. He thought he could bring the west to it's knees financially, he was wrong.

The west imposed sanctions. Iranian oil production had dropped to just 20,000 barrels per day, compared to 664,000 in 1950, while total world production had risen from 10.9 million barrels per day in 1950 to 13.0 million in 1952, an increase more than three times greater than Iran’s total output in 1950 (Yergin, p. 464).source Moṣaddeq was deserving of his fate.

As I said before, islam began as the enemy of all non believers, the qur'an is very specific in this, allah hates all non believers as well as muslim hypocrites and corrupters.

muslims who follow the qur'an to the letter today 2017 also declare they are the enemy of all non believers, hypocrites and corrupters.

islam is the problem.

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Frank

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #156 - May 18^th, 2017 at 6:25pm

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

So Mohammed is not God's prophet then, let alone his final prophet. But then Islam is a lie. The shahada is a laughable lie: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

But the shahada is the gateway to Muslims faith because they DO believe that every word in the Koran was given to Mohammed by Gabriel and that the Koran has existed eternally and is unchangeable for that very reason.

The Koran and Islam are not just full of contradiction - they are all contradiction. Islam is the Vicky Pollard of religions.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #157 - May 18^th, 2017 at 6:32pm

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

So Mohammed is not God's prophet then, let alone his final prophet. But then Islam is a lie. The shahada is a laughable lie: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

But the shahada is the gateway to Muslims faith because they DO believe that every word in the Koran was given to Mohammed by Gabriel and that the Koran has existed eternally and is unchangeable for that very reason.

The Koran and Islam are not just full of contradiction - they are all contradiction. Islam is the Vicky Pollard of religions.

Mohammad is God's messenger, but he is not to be obeyed above God.

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Frank

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #158 - May 18^th, 2017 at 7:40pm

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

So Mohammed is not God's prophet then, let alone his final prophet. But then Islam is a lie. The shahada is a laughable lie: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

But the shahada is the gateway to Muslims faith because they DO believe that every word in the Koran was given to Mohammed by Gabriel and that the Koran has existed eternally and is unchangeable for that very reason.

The Koran and Islam are not just full of contradiction - they are all contradiction. Islam is the Vicky Pollard of religions.

Mohammad is God's messenger, but he is not to be obeyed above God.

But Mohammed's message is very contradictory, as you say. How is that a message from god who is not contradictory.

You are the White Queen of Ozpol, it seems. You believe any old impossibility.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #159 - May 18^th, 2017 at 8:30pm

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:33pm:

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

Another example is the Mughal Empire during the period of Akbar the Great when he actually encourage the inter-mixing of faiths.

They were heading towards socialism. Hardly a good sign.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #160 - May 18^th, 2017 at 8:53pm

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 7:40pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:35pm:

Who does know how to interpret the koran?

Let me tell you the answer - it is based on this premise: 'God would never command a person to kill another person.' Second, God created human beings to be rational; whatever is contrary to reason is fundamentally against God.

Now, if you read the Quran, it is full of contradictions, therefore it cannot be the eternal word of the creator of the universe. Why would God, who is all-knowing, change his mind about anything? Why would the Quranic verses evolve from 'obeying God' and Muhammad being a warner, to 'obey God and the Prophet'? What changed wasn't God but it was the people in the religion who changed.

Any rational person who understands Islamic philosophy will know that God doesn't change his mind and is not arbitrary, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

So Mohammed is not God's prophet then, let alone his final prophet. But then Islam is a lie. The shahada is a laughable lie: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

But the shahada is the gateway to Muslims faith because they DO believe that every word in the Koran was given to Mohammed by Gabriel and that the Koran has existed eternally and is unchangeable for that very reason.

The Koran and Islam are not just full of contradiction - they are all contradiction. Islam is the Vicky Pollard of religions.

Mohammad is God's messenger, but he is not to be obeyed above God.

But Mohammed's message is very contradictory, as you say. How is that a message from god who is not contradictory.

You are the White Queen of Ozpol, it seems. You believe any old impossibility.

Let me explain: if you read the Quran in revelation order, you'll notice that the earliest Surah are written in a tripartite structure that is short and very poetic. Scholars believe it was written this way in order to aid with memory in an oral tradition. The primary theme of the earliest Meccan verses are punishment stories - i.e. God punishes people for not following the signs (ayat) etc. - IT IS NOT PEOPLE WHO PUNISH OTHER PEOPLE. As the Meccan verses progress the text shifts to rebutting those who deny of the Word of the Quran in the form of argumentation.

Then comes the Medinan verses. These are primarily legislation verses which discuss how a community should behave etc.

This one rule is simple: any later verse that contradicts an early verse is to be ignored. In my opinion the earliest surahs actually constitute the Quran, the recitation, not the later verses. The later verses act as a kind of Quranic hadith which talks about what Muhammad does 'after the recitation' and for some reason it has been included as part of the Quran.

Basically, you just need to read the first 10 surahs and so, and that's the Quran; everything else is not.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #161 - May 18^th, 2017 at 8:54pm

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:30pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:33pm:

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

Another example is the Mughal Empire during the period of Akbar the Great when he actually encourage the inter-mixing of faiths.

They were heading towards socialism. Hardly a good sign.

There was no evidence of that. They nationalized an oil company. Irrespective, they were much more progressive that other Muslim-majority states at the time.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #162 - May 18^th, 2017 at 8:56pm

Quote:

If Moṣaddeq had been an honourable person he would have upheld his oil treaty obligations. However his flawed belief that the west could not survive without Irans' oil was his downfall. He thought he could bring the west to it's knees financially, he was wrong.

The west imposed sanctions. Iranian oil production had dropped to just 20,000 barrels per day, compared to 664,000 in 1950, while total world production had risen from 10.9 million barrels per day in 1950 to 13.0 million in 1952, an increase more than three times greater than Iran’s total output in 1950 (Yergin, p. 464).source Moṣaddeq was deserving of his fate.

As I said before, islam began as the enemy of all non believers, the qur'an is very specific in this, allah hates all non believers as well as muslim hypocrites and corrupters.

muslims who follow the qur'an to the letter today 2017 also declare they are the enemy of all non believers, hypocrites and corrupters.

islam is the problem.

So, at the moment some Chinese companies and citizens own land in Australia. If a State Government decided to confiscate that land without compensation, would that justify an invasion from China? Would the Premier of the State 'deserve what he gets'?

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #163 - May 19^th, 2017 at 11:45am

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:30pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:33pm:

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

Another example is the Mughal Empire during the period of Akbar the Great when he actually encourage the inter-mixing of faiths.

They were heading towards socialism. Hardly a good sign.

There was no evidence of that. They nationalized an oil company. Irrespective, they were much more progressive that other Muslim-majority states at the time.

FD comes up with all sorts of excuses to apologise for the overthrow of a progressive, functioning parliamentary democracy and replacing it with a brutal dictator. In our last discussion he focused on how unreasonable the Iranians were for not offering the British enough of their oil wealth.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Islam Is Compatible With Women’s Rights
Reply #164 - May 19^th, 2017 at 12:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 11:45am:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 8:30pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:33pm:

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

there is absolutely nothing which tells the Jews that these deeds are the eternal benchmark for them

So, are you saying, as a Jew, that you don't believe that the Torah is the Word of God?

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

The quran urges every depravity known to mankind as being perfectly o.k. for muslims to practice.

The Quran also urges the feeding of the poor and condemnation of those 'who pileth up wealth'.

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:19pm:

What were they when they engaged in their crusades from 630 to 1095?

Look at various Muslim-majority countries in the past: like Iran. Iran was one of the earliest constitutional monarchies in the Muslim world; it had a modern, secular and stable government, and was actually going along quite smoothly, but do you what happened? A democratically-elected Prime Minister (yes, they had parliamentary democracy) was deposed by both the UK and US because the Government, legally, nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which in my view, is hardly radical. The PM Mossadegh was deposed and the Shah became an autocrat.

Imagine if the UK and US had just kept their noses out? Iran probably would've been a first world country.

Another example is the Mughal Empire during the period of Akbar the Great when he actually encourage the inter-mixing of faiths.

They were heading towards socialism. Hardly a good sign.

There was no evidence of that. They nationalized an oil company. Irrespective, they were much more progressive that other Muslim-majority states at the time.

FD comes up with all sorts of excuses to apologise for the overthrow of a progressive, functioning parliamentary democracy and replacing it with a brutal dictator. In our last discussion he focused on how unreasonable the Iranians were for not offering the British enough of their oil wealth.

Yes, I believe FD said the same thing about all those kingdoms conquered, occupied and turned to slavery by the Roman empire.

Political inclusiveness, innit. Freeeeedom.

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