polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2017 at 5:10pm:





[002.106] whatever a Verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is Able to do all things?

[016:101] And when We change a Verse (of the Qur’an) in place of another – and Allah knows best what He sends down – they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad [sal-Allâhu 'aloha wa sallam]) are but a Muftari! (Forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.


gandalf,

Do you want to argue that 2:256 is a Koran verse which was NOT abrogated by later Koran verses ?

And do you want to argue that 2:256 is a Koran verse which would compel moslems, to allow/permit non-moslems to worship a deity other than Allah ?   [definitely WRONG!]

OK lets play.....







We will examine the 'BUT', a little later [next post].

But first, lets look at a few Koran verses which 'could' support;

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." Koran 2.256




"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge."
Koran 9:6

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"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2.256

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"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!
No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
"Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth"; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not."
Koran 10.99-101

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"And though thou try much, most men will not believe."
Koran 12.103

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"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

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1/ Do not presume, to compel disbelievers to declare allegiance to Allah and his religion.
2/ Do not presume, to try to guide those whom Allah has thrown out of the way!
3/ Kill those who oppose you.

I was told by Muslims that in the end it comes down to...  Submit and convert, die or be a dhimmi.

Having become a dictator in Medina, he turned his sights to subduing Mecca. As soon as Muhammad conquered Mecca, things changed for the pagans also. His first act was to destroy all symbols of paganism in and around the Kaaba, which at the time was the centrepiece of Arabian paganism. The Kaaba itself was spared as Muhammad declared it a Muslim artifact. Muhammad sent out missions to slaughter pagans and destroy pagan shrines and artifacts. He ordered destruction of any remaining pagan idols in Eastern Arabia. Many Arabic Bedouin converted when faced with the choice of being slaughtered or participating in the slaughter. Here, Muhammad capitalised on the fear generated by his genocide of a Jewish tribe in Medina and the unpredictable nature of the campaigns to attack pagans. His forces rarely confronted people and gave them a choice of converting. Muslims attempt to spin the outcome of this campaign as the whole Arabian peninsula suddenly converting voluntarily to Islam. Larger groups who could not be eradicated (eg the Jewish community in Kaybar, where many Medina Jews had fled) were subjected to forced mass migrations (or conversion). Any non-Muslim communities and individuals who found themselves subject to the Islamic state but still did not convert were faced with a range of punitive measures, including the Jizya tax and highly discriminatory laws that restricted their religious activities and denied them justice when wronged by Muslims. Muhammad also on occasion resorted to direct and explicit conversion by the sword. The last city to hold out against the Muslims in Western Arabia was Taif. Muhammad refused to accept the city's surrender until they agreed to convert to Islam and allowed men to destroy the statue of their goddess Allat.

Muhammad gave this general instruction to his military leaders:

Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of the Muhajireen and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajireen. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers).

Thus, the Arabian peninsula, which until Muhammad's time had housed Pagans, Jews and Christians without the need for a central governing authority to manage their affairs, was ethnically cleansed into a homogenous and oppressive society. Thus Saudi Arabia today is not an aberration, but the inevitable fulfilment of Islam.
After Muhammad's death the military conquest continued. Muhammad's approach to spreading Islam by the sword was codified into a general instruction to all military leaders:

1) Call the Azaan (Islamic call to prayer).
2) If the tribe answers with the Azaan, do not attack. After the Azaan, ask the tribe to confirm its submission, including the payment of zakat. If confirmed, do not attack.
3) Those who submit will not be attacked.
4) Those who do not answer with the Azaan, or after the Azaan do not confirm full submission, will be dealt with by the sword.
5) All apostates who have killed Muslims will be killed.
6) With these instructions Abu Bakr launched the forces of his Caliphate against the apostates.

The strategy was successful. The Hijaz was soon ethnically cleansed of all non-Muslims. Within 120 years, the first Islamic state had spread west across North Africa and Spain, only stopping when it hit the Atlantic. In the same time it spread east to the modern border between Pakistan and India, where it was stopped by more effective local resistance. With the exception of Spain, where the Muslims were gradually pushed back by an entirely disorganised resistance, the territories it captured are the oppressive Islamic regimes we see today. Islam spread east-west rather than north-south because at the time that is where the vast wealth of civilisation lay. Islam followed that wealth. Today the countries within the Caliphate are some of the poorest, most oppressive and most violent places on earth, where slavery still has not been eradicated (and not just thanks to the modern Islamic state). Prior to Islam, these places housed a diverse range of Jews, Christians and various non-Abrahamic religions. Very few survived in North Africa and the Middle East. The process of military conquest and forced conversion had to be followed up with a prolonged effort to make the conversion real. Where Islam has dominated for the longest in a political and military sense, that is exactly what happened.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2017 at 9:38am:


just noticed this quote that you lifted from wikipedia (and didn't acknowledge) does not have a single reference.

Literally anyone could have written this down, and we don't have a clue where it came from.

Yet here is FD, stating it as fact and basing an entire meme around it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2017 at 9:51am:


Almost all of it is lifted from wikipedia. This is acknowledged at the top of the article.

Where do I state it is unquestioned? I even gave some examples of you questioning the facts in the wikipedia article. I think it was your attempts at genocide denial.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2017 at 10:07am:


Sorry FD, no doubt when you stated as fact...

Quote:


...what you reallly meant to say was "some bozo on wikipedia alleged with no evidence whatsoever that...."

...but you just forgot to point out that it had no reference and can't possibly be verified? Do you agree it looks a bit sus that you didn't even reference the wikipedia article?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2017 at 10:06am:

No there is no problem....  just pedantic obfuscation...  please stop it.