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Are Tesla Batteries the answer (Read 4648 times)
Redmond Neck
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Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Mar 12th, 2017 at 12:44pm
 
I am very skeptical about major banks of Tesla Batteries as a solution to SA's power problems.

They may be able to do the job initially but what are the life expectancy of these batteries?

That is the unknown!

When will they need replacing and at what cost!

However I am not anti the idea as it may be a game changer!


 
Is Elon Musk's tweet the answer? Experts are divided

James Robertson
Published: March 12, 2017 - 12:48AM

Has the answer to South Australia's energy future been found by two billionaires making a $100-million bet on Twitter? It mightn't be so simple.

Tesla founder Elon Musk has captured national attention with a promise his company could build a massive 100 megawatt/hour battery storage facility in blackout-plagued South Australia in less than 100 days, or at no charge.

That followed urging from the Australian co-founder of software company Atlassian, Mike Cannon-Brookes, who tweeted he would try to make "the $ […] & politics" happen.

Those tweets have already set discussions in motion. Mr Musk said he was "very impressed" following a phone call with South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill on Saturday afternoon; the Premier called the discussion "positive".

But experts are divided about whether Tesla is really the answer.

"This would make a very, very, very big difference to the interruptions South Australia has experienced," said Andrew Stock, of the Climate Institute.

Mr Stock points to modelling that suggests many of the state's interruptions, including a state-wide September blackout caused by a storm, could have been prevented by additional battery storage.
Twitter bet ... Elon Musk and Mike Cannon-Brookes.
Twitter bet ... Elon Musk and Mike Cannon-Brookes. Photo: Les Hewitt

Other experts are less sanguine about Mr Musk's idea.

"Obviously more storage would help, but saying it would solve South Australia's problem is a big call," said Tony Wood, director of the energy program at the Grattan Institute. "Would they have helped Adelaide get through three or four hours? Maybe.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk tweeted that his company could build a massive 100 megawatt/hour battery storage facility in ...
Tesla CEO Elon Musk tweeted that his company could build a massive 100 megawatt/hour battery storage facility in blackout-plagued South Australia.  Photo: AP

"The real challenge is how much is it going to cost, who's going to pay for it and how".

South Australia's government recently announced plans for a "dramatic" solution to the state's energy crisis, expected to be delivered in coming weeks. Since then it's been flooded with suggestions including withdrawing from the national market for electricity or nationalising the state's electricity system.

It is also understood to have received a range of proposals from Australian and international competitors to Tesla to build battery storage systems.

Mr Musk says that the cost of building a 100 megawatt hour storage system would be $33 million ($US25 million). It's not known how much installation, shipping and other fees would add to that price tag and a facility with up to three times that capacity has been mooted, putting the cost at over $100 million.

But Mr Wood says the government itself funding or subsidising the plant would be a "retrograde step… very tricky and potentially dangerous".

But battery technology advocates, including Professor Ross Garnaut, say the national electricity market discriminates against battery power, providing a disincentive to investors.

The Australian Energy Market Operator, the body that runs the national electricity market, settles bids for power in half-hour lots. Experts say that discriminates against batteries which provide short bursts of power very quickly. A change is under consideration by regulators but a ruling is not expected until July.

Mr Wood notes that batteries offer many potential benefits including relieving companies of the need to invest heavily in electricity infrastructure that is maxed out only a few days a year – a problem known as "gold plating".

But he says Australian energy companies are also trialling alternative means of storage including "pumped hydro", a method singled out by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull in a recent speech. That involves running water uphill when demand for power is low and releasing it when demand peaks, allowing extra power to be generated from hydroelectricity.

"Batteries have got a really complex future," he said. "No one, including Tesla, knows where it's all going to land".

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/is-elon-musks-tweet-the-answer-experts-are-divided-201...
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #1 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:18pm
 
They are one of the most expensive options around.

Battery storage is looking like a potentially viable option in the future, but tesla's market is well intentioned idiots.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #2 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:38pm
 
Meanwhile, Aramco is going to release a KSA oil reserves update soon.

Keep an eye on that!
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #3 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:52pm
 
In related news -

"Pittsburgh-based Aquion Energy Inc. has voluntarily filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and has "retrenched to a core R&D team" by terminating 80 percent of its employees, according to an announcement Wednesday.

Aquion, which produces saltwater hybrid batteries and has high-profile financial backers including Bill Gates and Kleiner Perkins, has halted all factory operations, and stopped marketing and selling its products. Several of its terminated employees have been retained to assist Aquion in the sale of its assets, the company announced."

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2017/03/08/aquion-energy-files-for-ch...
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #4 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 3:17pm
 
Energy storage will become viable when super capacitors of appropriate capacity are developed. They have currently have a 10-15 year life (life needs to be extended in the evolution of supercapacitor technology) and are not prone to the chemical actions that cause battery melt-downs.

Every type of dc energy storage system has drawbacks related to the nature of dc current, the persistence of dc arcs, and the interrupting dc short circuits which requires more expensive circuit breakers.

Currently, super-capacitors are not even close to being competitive with lithium-ion batteries in price or performance.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:05pm
 
I have 7.5KW of solar power on the roof.    It is great and I am saving money but, the power here goes out when someone sneezes and is often off for quite a while - so all the solar power in the world is useless if you cant use it under those circumstances!    I am thinking of a 19.5KW battery system to hook into my system that theoretically should take me off the grid until such time as some form of maintenance is required.     I am hoping AGL here in Victoria follow the lead of SA and subsidise the battery bank.   A bit too dear at the moment for me to self fund
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #6 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:33pm
 
Vic wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:05pm:
I have 7.5KW of solar power on the roof.    It is great and I am saving money but, the power here goes out when someone sneezes and is often off for quite a while - so all the solar power in the world is useless if you cant use it under those circumstances!    I am thinking of a 19.5KW battery system to hook into my system that theoretically should take me off the grid until such time as some form of maintenance is required.     I am hoping AGL here in Victoria follow the lead of SA and subsidise the battery bank.   A bit too dear at the moment for me to self fund


Not being very techy savvy, when those solar panel power things first came out...I thought they were directly linked to the host house...so you did away with the outside suppliers.  I'd go with that...with a generator back up when  required.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #7 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 7:03pm
 
Aussie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:33pm:
Vic wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:05pm:
I have 7.5KW of solar power on the roof.    It is great and I am saving money but, the power here goes out when someone sneezes and is often off for quite a while - so all the solar power in the world is useless if you cant use it under those circumstances!    I am thinking of a 19.5KW battery system to hook into my system that theoretically should take me off the grid until such time as some form of maintenance is required.     I am hoping AGL here in Victoria follow the lead of SA and subsidise the battery bank.   A bit too dear at the moment for me to self fund


Not being very techy savvy, when those solar panel power things first came out...I thought they were directly linked to the host house...so you did away with the outside suppliers.  I'd go with that...with a generator back up when  required.


Yes, there is a lot to be said for that.
With your own solar panels, storage and inverter, you can supply all your electrical equipment with very clean power.

Get a good inverter, it'll give you very clean 240Vac.
ALL of your devices will appreciate that.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #8 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:50pm
 
Aussie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:33pm:
Vic wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:05pm:
I have 7.5KW of solar power on the roof.    It is great and I am saving money but, the power here goes out when someone sneezes and is often off for quite a while - so all the solar power in the world is useless if you cant use it under those circumstances!    I am thinking of a 19.5KW battery system to hook into my system that theoretically should take me off the grid until such time as some form of maintenance is required.     I am hoping AGL here in Victoria follow the lead of SA and subsidise the battery bank.   A bit too dear at the moment for me to self fund


Not being very techy savvy, when those solar panel power things first came out...I thought they were directly linked to the host house...so you did away with the outside suppliers.  I'd go with that...with a generator back up when  required.


no...

if the main power goes down then everything goes out...

why?

because if there's a fault they don't want electricity from the home solar array system keeping the wires alive...

but surely there's a way around that...

the new Tesla power wall has double the capacity and cheaper than the original Power Wall..

it can also run independently of the Grid.. .

this would solve Vics Problem..
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 4:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:18pm:
They are one of the most expensive options around.

Battery storage is looking like a potentially viable option in the future, but tesla's market is well intentioned idiots.

You mean like every mobile phone that ever came out ever!

They are following the same cost curve: start high go low and then value add! Um, they do it in the drug world aswell: it's not a new stratagem!
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #10 - Mar 16th, 2017 at 6:50pm
 
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #11 - Mar 16th, 2017 at 7:04pm
 
It seems Jay was a little caught up in the entrepreneurs sales pitch and is now seeking technical advice on the viability of a 100MW/h battery to run a city after realizing the extension cord he was going to bring from home was not long enough to run from the battery to the grid.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #12 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 7:57pm
 
Setanta wrote on Mar 16th, 2017 at 6:50pm:



thanks setanta
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 8:34am
 
It looks like batteries will soon become cheap enough to be viable for bulk power storage. But not tesla batteries. They are a very expensive option. They are basically fire traps designed to extract a lot of money from people in exchange for making them feel good.

You don't need 'compact' batteries. You need cheap ones. It doesn't really matter if you need to fill a few warehouses with them on the outskirts of town.

Check out companies like redflow. Whoever wins this race will be the next google or microsoft.
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Re: Are Tesla Batteries the answer
Reply #14 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 8:44am
 

A larger storage capacity is better.
the physical size is an aesthetics aspect.
Safety is more important.
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