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western civilisation before Islam (Read 22590 times)
freediver
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western civilisation before Islam
Mar 9th, 2017 at 9:46pm
 
This is getting easier to write.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Political_History_of_Islam#Western...

Church and State

Islam is perhaps the greatest lesson in the importance of the separation of church and state, or more broadly, religion and government. Muhammed and the Caliphate (Islamic state) that he helped to create demonstrate, on a grand scale, everything that can go wrong when religion comes under the control of government, or vice versa. In Muhammed's case, they both came under the control of one man, with nothing to balance his power. To further his quest for power, Muhammed practiced genocide, forced conversion, collective punishment, forced mass migration and established a society that used every method of coercion to cement Islam as both the apparatus of state and the only tolerable religion. He institutionalised slavery, in particular sex slavery, under a set of policies that, when the Caliphate ceased expanding, created a massive and continual demand for slaves on the international market.

Western Civilisation before Islam

Muhammad was born into a power vacuum. The gradual collapse and disintegration of the Roman Empire over the previous few centuries had created the closest thing in history to a Mad Max style post apocalyptic nightmare. Living standards dropped drastically. Smaller and smaller empires fought each other for the remnants of Roman glory. When the Song dynasty in China reached similar living standards to those at the peak of the Roman empire, about 1000 years ago, western civilisation was still stuck in the post apocalyptic nightmare. The difference now was that the west was once again united under an enourmous empire - the biggest the world had ever seen. Far from a resurgence in living standards, the west experienced continued stagnation under the yoke of Islam (despite the preference among Muslims to refer to this time as the Islamic golden age). Living standards in the west did not reach, or even come close to those under the Roman Republic and Empire until well into the industrial revolution.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/heavy-legacies-our-past.html#rome

Closer to home, the power vacuum was even more pronounced. Despite lying just to the south of the birthplace of western civilisation, the Arabian peninsula was still torn between efforts at settled communal living and wandering tribes. There was no central government. Jews, Christians and various non-Abrahamic religious groups and tribes existed side by side, if not always peacefully. Even large cities existed without centralised control, governed by Arabic customary law between competing tribes. The need for a central authority was acknowledged, and it was one of those cities that Muhammad used to launch his empire. In a very short period Muhammad swept all of this aside. The region around Mecca and Medina was ethnically cleansed of all non-Muslims shortly after his death. It was one of the most rapid and drastic social transformations ever achieved, and it was imposed from above by ruthlessly slaughtering anyone who stood in the way (although Muslims like to insist it was achieved by mass voluntary conversion). It took another thousand years to subdue this empire.

Immediately after Muhammad's death, his empire continued to spread at the same breakneck speed it had towards the end of his career. It spread west along the coast of North Africa until it hit the Atlantic, the North into the Iberian peninsula. It spread east to the modern boundary between Pakistan in India. With the exception of the Iberian peninsula, the Islamic state swept aside diverse communities of Jews, Christians and all sorts of pagans. For the most part they ceased to exist in a very short period of time. Those that remained have faced 1400 years of oppression and constant harassment, and to this day face the threat of a lynch mob if they speak out against Islam.

The Islamic state grew to a grand scale in a mere 120 years. It conquered what at the time was almost the entirety of western civilisation. Much of the rest was depopulated by constant slave raids. The Mediterranean coastline had, by it's nature, allowed relatively unrestricted trade along it's entire coastline. When the Roman Empire took control over the region and reigned in piracy, trade flourished. When the Caliphate took control, people fled the coastline of southern Europe, or were transported en masse into the Islamic state as slaves. The rest of Europe had only recently been introduced by the Romans to settled civilisation (France and Britain) or was never subdued (Germany and lands to the east), remaining under the control of wandering and destructive tribes. The world that we know it today was shaped by the people on the fringe of western civilisation. The reshaping of the world was so dramatic that Muslims can, without any sense of irony, complain about "the west" interfering in middle eastern geopolitics. The west today is synonymous with Europe, America and the various colonies they established, but for the first 11000 years of western civilisation America was unknown and Europe was a tribal backwater.
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 9:47pm
 
Western Civilisation Leaves Islam Behind

The rise of modern civilisation required two major threats to be subdued. The first were the large tribes of the central asian steppes (in Roman times this threat extended west to Germany and France). The second was the Islamic state, which for a millennia had all but destroyed western civilisation. Instead of devoting its enormous resources to bettering the human condition (or allowing citizens to do this for themselves), it devoted its resources to wiping out the diversity and freedom that were the engines of growth. The European fringe of western civilisation managed to fight back the Islamic state, pushing it out of Spain. Eventually, it managed to reign in the rampant slave trade, allowing people to return to the coast of southern Europe. It took one look at the mess that Islam had created in north Africa and the middle east and decided to sail around Africa and do business with eastern civilisations. The rest, as they say, is history. In particular, it is the history we are familiar with. The overcoming of the central asian tribes (eg the Mongols who destroyed both the song dynasty in China and much of the Caliphate, as well as the more western tribes that destroyed Rome) is largely forgotten, including by the descendants of the people who brought civilisation to its knees over and over again. The remnants of the Caliphate - modern Muslims in the middle east and North Africa - have not forgotten their past glory and many long to recreate it. Until September 11, everyone else had forgotten about them. The stifling, but powerful and unyielding social forces that held the Caliphate together and made it such a huge success from a military perspective, also locked the region into a barbaric way of thinking that has held back its development ever since. For Muslims, the apocalypse never ended. Like a script for a Monty Python movie, these people long to relive their past success and glory by returning western civilisation to the lowest living standard it has seen in the last two and half millennia. Many think that their success is inevitable and all they need to do is start the fight, despite their inability to follow through.

Today, the success of the west, and now the east and many new centres of civilisation, has shrunk the world. Where we could previously decide to simply go around the Muslim world and leave it to its own devices, it is now in our back yard, and like the worst kind of jealous neighbour it prays for our demise. Our success came after the subduing of the Islamic state, and our collective identity was forged largely in ignorance of it's existence, when distance and backwardness (and a few campaigns to destroy slave trading ports) were more than sufficient to keep it contained. This is no longer the case, and the west is now struggling to understand what is going on without an awareness of its own history. Our ability to exclude the Muslim world when identifying western civilisation reveals how easily we forget that Islam once destroyed the west almost completely. The world is still a scary place, if you are prepared to turn over some rocks and see what is there.
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm
 
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 6:20pm
 
Rome ruled parts of it.

In any case, what exactly is the problem Brian?
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #4 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:02pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm:
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Ad hominem pure and simple eh bwian how hypocritical and two faced of you....  you really are not holier than the rest are you?

...
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #5 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 6:20pm:
Rome ruled parts of it.

In any case, what exactly is the problem Brian?


Your claim that Mohammed was affected by the destruction of the Roman Empire.   He wasn't.  He was born some 700 years later.   Tsk. tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #6 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:02pm
 
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm:
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


http://encksmedievalhistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/Rome_Map.png/103670973/533x...


Thanks for confirming for me that Rome never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...   Roll Eyes
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #7 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:38pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:02pm:
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm:
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


http://encksmedievalhistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/Rome_Map.png/103670973/533x...


Thanks for confirming for me that Rome never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...   Roll Eyes

Never said it did now did I....  happy to post the truth...  happy to show that you are a lying hypocrite and have a habit of continually posting ad hom bwian...

Cheesy
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Brian Ross
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #8 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:47pm
 
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:38pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:02pm:
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm:
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


http://encksmedievalhistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/Rome_Map.png/103670973/533x...


Thanks for confirming for me that Rome never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...   Roll Eyes

Never said it did now did I....  happy to post the truth...  happy to show that you are a lying hypocrite and have a habit of continually posting ad hom bwian...
Cheesy


I didn't claim you said it, Geoff.  Tsk, tsk, you cannot even accept an honest thank you without protest.  I said that Rome did not rule the Arabian Peninsular.  FD said that the collapse of the Roman Empire, some 400 years before the birth of Mohammed affected him and his life.  My question is how?   Afterall, Rome did not rule the Arabian Peninsular...    Roll Eyes
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #9 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:54pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:01pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 6:20pm:
Rome ruled parts of it.

In any case, what exactly is the problem Brian?


Your claim that Mohammed was affected by the destruction of the Roman Empire.   He wasn't.  He was born some 700 years later.   Tsk. tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


I said he was born into a power vacuum Brian. Do you disagree with this, or are you just pretending?
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:58pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:47pm:
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:38pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:02pm:
Grendel wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:09pm:
Err, only one problem, FD.  Roman never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...  Tsk, tsk, you really need to stop with your Islamophobia.  It's sending you blind!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


http://encksmedievalhistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/Rome_Map.png/103670973/533x...


Thanks for confirming for me that Rome never ruled the Arabian Peninsular...   Roll Eyes

Never said it did now did I....  happy to post the truth...  happy to show that you are a lying hypocrite and have a habit of continually posting ad hom bwian...
Cheesy


I didn't claim you said it, Geoff.  Tsk, tsk, you cannot even accept an honest thank you without protest.  I said that Rome did not rule the Arabian Peninsular.  FD said that the collapse of the Roman Empire, some 400 years before the birth of Mohammed affected him and his life.  My question is how?   Afterall, Rome did not rule the Arabian Peninsular...    Roll Eyes

Oh dear....  I know you troll everyone in almost every post you make bwian...  always ad hom always flaming  and yet you have the hide to pretend you are an innocent and its just everyone else...  Tsk tsk tsk bwian.

Oh and bwian I know who said what...

I highlighted your hypocrisy bwian. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 7:19pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:01pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 6:20pm:
Rome ruled parts of it.

In any case, what exactly is the problem Brian?


Your claim that Mohammed was affected by the destruction of the Roman Empire.   He wasn't.  He was born some 700 years later.   Tsk. tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Not quite - the western Roman Empire collapsed during the 5th century, Muhammad was born in the 6th century.

And its more accurate to say the early Caliphate benefited most from the mutual destruction of the two rival super-powers on their doorstep: the Sassanids and the East Romans. The muslims were able to sweep through and simultaneously conquer both with relatively little destruction - with most of the populations welcoming them as liberators. Far from "sweeping aside" and annihilating the locals, the muslims introduced the dhimmi system - both elevating the locals to a privileged status not seen by virtually any
western subject population to that time, and in doing so, benefiting the Caliphate economy. Far from annhialating and/or mass converting the non-muslim populations they conquered - the muslims came to heavily rely on an efficient economic model that relied on protecting a happy and productive non-muslim subject population.

And I see FD is once again peddling his beloved 'depopulated Mediterranean coastline due to muslim slave-traders' fairy tale. We'll just ignore the fact that the Mediterranean slave traders didn't start until about the 17th century under the Ottomans - and focus on the fact that FD's own favourite economic data compiled by Ian Morris - does not reveal any evidence whatsoever of any depopulation or economic decline caused by the muslim raids/settlements that happened along some Mediterranean coastlines during the period he is talking about. On the contrary, historical evidence clearly shows that such places experienced relatively more prosperity under Muslim rule. All this has been shown to FD before.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 7:34pm
 
Quote:
benefiting the Caliphate economy


So why did the Caliphate barely register an increase in living standards? Do you remember arguing for pages and pages that it was because they didn't have Italy, as if Roman wealth could be attributable to some giant gold mine that the Muslims didn't know about?

Quote:
And I see FD is once again peddling his beloved 'depopulated Mediterranean coastline due to muslim slave-traders' fairy tale. We'll just ignore the fact that the Mediterranean slave traders didn't start until about the 17th century under the Ottomans


Crap. Muhammed was a slave trader. His immediate succesors invaded Spain, reintroducing sex slavery as a core of the economy.

Quote:
on the fact that FD's own favourite economic data compiled by Ian Morris - does not reveal any evidence whatsoever of any depopulation or economic decline caused by the muslim raids/settlements that happened along some Mediterranean coastlines during the period he is talking about


It does not attempt to measure this. It does however show that the best Islam could do in terms of living standards was lock western civilisation into the post apocalyptic mess for 1000 years, until Europe managed to get it started again, despite the best efforts of Muslims to turn everything to poo.

Quote:
On the contrary, historical evidence clearly shows that such places experienced relatively more prosperity under Muslim rule. All this has been shown to FD before.


What you ahve shown me is a remarkable effort in mental gymnastics by trying to argue that the cause of the Caliphate's dismal economic performance compared to the Romans, despite having a far bigger empire, was their inability to capture Italy.
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 8:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 7:34pm:
So why did the Caliphate barely register an increase in living standards?


Its not a claim about a (relative) increase in living standards - its a merely a refutation of your BS fairy tale about all non-muslims being either enslaved, forcibly converted or annhialated. The dhimmi system, and the central role it played to the Caliphate economy is simply a fact of history.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: western civilisation before Islam
Reply #14 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 8:34pm
 
Really, is there anything more contemptible than someone making an ideologically driven diatribe to denigrate an entire religion that not only lacks any sourcing or the most basic evidentiary requirements  - but contains demonstrable fabrications that can and are refuted by the most basic facts of history (eg the idiotic 'non-muslims swept away en masse' fairy tale)?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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