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Anthropogenic Global Warming (Read 15634 times)
Ajax
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CO2 has never controlled
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #120 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:37pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:32pm:
A study by the US Geological Survey shows that the El Nino/La Nina cycle is getting more and more extreme.

Cover that tomorrow or later in the week.


So what, its a cycle that has been around for ever.

If your suggesting that the increase in CO2 is the cause...!

Then what would it have been like when we had 7000ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere

End of the world.....???


...

http://s155.n46.n171.n68.static.myhostcenter.com/WVFossils/Reference_Docs/Geocarb_III-Berner.pdf


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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Ajax
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #121 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:38pm
 
So Jovial Monk where is the correlation between CO2 and temperature in accordance with the graph above in the previous post............... Smiley

You have times when CO2 is high and temperature steady.

And temperature rising while CO2 is falling.
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« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:51pm by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #122 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm
 
Great graph Ajax.

It shows that CO2 % was usually much higher than it is now.
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lee
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #123 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:32pm:
A study by the US Geological Survey shows that the El Nino/La Nina cycle is getting more and more extreme.

Cover that tomorrow or later in the week.


Edit: you mean

"Coastal vulnerability across the Pacific dominated by El Niño/Southern Oscillation"

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v8/n10/full/ngeo2539.html

Where they only analysed data from 1979 to 2012? You do know El Nino's have been around a lot longer than that? Wink


That will be interesting. Don't you trust BoM?
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« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:52pm by lee »  
 
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Ajax
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #124 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:42pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm:
Great graph Ajax.

It shows that CO2 % was usually much higher than it is now.


The note at the bottom of that graph says that CO2 and temperature have only been as low as they are today one other time in some 600 million years.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #125 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:49pm
 
Ajax wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:42pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm:
Great graph Ajax.

It shows that CO2 % was usually much higher than it is now.


The note at the bottom of that graph says that CO2 and temperature have only been as low as they are today one other time in some 600 million years.



Yes & that's not to say that CO2 is good.
I wish that Thorium reactors will take off -
safe, abundant, cheap, nuclear power.

Maybe it's only 5 years away?
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Ajax
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #126 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:53pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:49pm:
Ajax wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:42pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm:
Great graph Ajax.

It shows that CO2 % was usually much higher than it is now.


The note at the bottom of that graph says that CO2 and temperature have only been as low as they are today one other time in some 600 million years.



Yes & that's not to say that CO2 is good.
I wish that Thorium reactors will take off -
safe, abundant, cheap, nuclear power.

Maybe it's only 5 years away?


Not a fan of nuclear for two reasons, if the reactor is breached and also the waste.

Apart from that it sounds good.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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lee
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #127 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:59pm
 
That USGS survey also has notables from UNSW, the establishment of the Ship of Fools.
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lee
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #128 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 10:00pm
 
It is post normal science with post normal CO2 that can do anything. Wink
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lee
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #129 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 10:21pm
 
Further to the USGA paper -

An important rider-

"We conclude that, if (my bold) projections for an increasing frequency of extreme El Niño and La Niña events over the twenty-first century are confirmed,"
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Bobby.
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #130 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 10:23pm
 
Ajax wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:53pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:49pm:
Ajax wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:42pm:
Bobby. wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:41pm:
Great graph Ajax.

It shows that CO2 % was usually much higher than it is now.


The note at the bottom of that graph says that CO2 and temperature have only been as low as they are today one other time in some 600 million years.



Yes & that's not to say that CO2 is good.
I wish that Thorium reactors will take off -
safe, abundant, cheap, nuclear power.

Maybe it's only 5 years away?


Not a fan of nuclear for two reasons, if the reactor is breached and also the waste.

Apart from that it sounds good.



Thorium is walk away safe.
Thorium doesn't even dissolve in water so it can't pollute the ground.

If it happens Thorium will change everything!
We won't need to burn stinking coal.
China's cities won't be full of pea soup fog pollution.
The CO2 freaks will be happy.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #131 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:08am
 
The USGS study:

Quote:
The El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) explains much of the interannual variability in sea surface temperature, sea-level pressure and atmospheric forcing across the equatorial Pacific, affecting global climate patterns and economies. For example, global economic losses associated with the extreme El Niño of 1982–1983 have been estimated at over US$11.5 billion (in 2016 dollars), including significant losses along the coast. The extremes of ENSO oscillations, El Niño and La Niña, have been linked to elevated coastal hazards, particularly during boreal winter (December-February) for the Eastern North Pacific (for example, Hawaii, California, . . . and the Oregon and Washington and Southwestern Pacific (for example, New Zealand and Australia). El Niño events have also been associated with hazardous coastal conditions in Japan during the boreal fall, greater frequency of tropical cyclone development in the Eastern Pacific and rotational shifts of embayed beaches in Australia. With seasonally elevated water levels, higher wave energy and southerly wave directional shifts common during El Niño, the North American west coast has historically experienced severe coastal erosion during El Niño winters, as reported during the 1982–1983, 1997–1998 and 2009–2010 events.


All this extensively footnoted in the study. El Nino and La Nina bring drought and flooding to opposite sides of the Pacific, hence the huge economic cost especially of large El Nino events. Add to this the enhanced erosion threatening coastal communities. Then add rising sea levels as land ice continues and even accelerates melting.

Quote:
By various metrics, the 2015–2016 El Niño winter was one of the three strongest events in the historical record. For example, in the boreal winter of 2015–2016 the Oceanic Niño Index, a 3-month running mean of sea surface temperatures in the eastern tropical Pacific, reached the highest value in its 66-year history


When the seas absorb more and more heat, as they are, stronger El Nino events are not unexpected.

...

Quote:
By various metrics, the 2015–2016 El Niño winter was one of the three strongest events in the historical record17. For example, in the boreal winter of 2015–2016 the Oceanic Niño Index, a 3-month running mean of sea surface temperatures in the eastern tropical Pacific18, reached the highest value in its 66-year history (Fig. 1a). Based on a reconstruction that dates back to 1871 for the multivariate ENSO index19, a comprehensive assessment of conditions in the tropical Pacific Ocean20—which is significantly correlated with wave energy flux across the Eastern North Pacific5—the 2015–2016 winter was only exceeded by the similarly powerful El Niño events of 1982–1983 and 1997–1998 (Fig. 1b)


The three strongest El Ninos have been from 1982/3 on.

Quote:
The study analyzes two decades of winter oceanographic forcing across the US West Coast, focusing on the response of 29 beaches along the California, Oregon and Washington coasts, fronting a population of ≈25 million.


Be nice if there was a corresponding study on Australasian beaches.

Quote:
The wave climate in the Eastern North Pacific varies seasonally, with larger waves in the fall and winter months driven by the development and passage of extra-tropical cyclones across the mid-latitudes . . . . High pressure dominates in the spring and summer months, with prevailing northwesterly winds and southern hemisphere storms typically resulting in lower wave energy conditions.


Pretty obvious, winter storms in mid latitude eastern Pacific generate bigger waves while storms on the other side of the Pacific result in much less wave energy on the eastern Pacific in the NH summer.

Quote:
As a key driver of coastal change, mean and elevated (that is, top 5%) wave energy flux (a function of wave height and period, see Methods), were ∼50% above normal averaged across all regions during the 2015–2016 El Niño winter. During the 19 years of analysis, mean wave energy flux was only exceeded by the 1997–1998 El Niño (61% above normal), but elevated wave energy flux in 2015–2016 was the highest on record.


Yup, the biggest waves do the most damage and those come (in US West coast) El Nino years. Quite understandable, really. So more and stronger El Ninos are going to do severe erosion and flood damage.

Quote:
An unusual aspect of the 2015–2016 oceanographic conditions was the lack of a regionally consistent wave direction anomaly typical of prior El Niño . . . . In . . .  2015–2016 . . . the Southern California region did experience a marked northerly shift in elevated wave energy flux direction of 18° and 24° relative to the 1997–1998 and 2009–2010 winters, respectively, while Oregon recorded a southerly shift of 10° relative to the mean


So ever stronger, higher more destructive waves coming from different directions. How do you erect coastal defences?

cont’d
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« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:38am by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #132 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 5:04am
 
Quote:
Seasonal water-level anomalies averaged 11 cm above the mean across the study area during the winter of 2015–2016, with the highest anomaly (+17 cm) measured on the Oregon coast (Fig. 3c). The anomalies were significantly less than in 1997–1998 across all regions, particularly in Northern California and in the Pacific Northwest (averaged +23 cm in 1997–1998).


So the water level in 2015/6 were lower than in the 1997/8 El Nino. Why?

Quote:
In California, the water-level anomalies approximated those recorded during the 2009–2010 El Niño and the winter of 2014–2015, where the latter non-El Niño-related water-level anomaly was driven by a high-amplitude upper level ridge that persisted for several years in the Gulf of Alaska,


That ridge was discussed in an earlier article posted above.

Quote:
Coastal response during the 2015–2016 El Niño
Beach morphology responds to the seasonal modulation in forcing across the Eastern North Pacific, with beaches tending to build seaward (prograde) during the low wave energy summer months and retreat landward (erode) in the stormier winter months21,28,29. As coastal populations and infrastructure are most susceptible to storm hazards (for example, flooding, cliff failures and structural damage due to elevated water levels and wave attack) when beaches are depleted, we use the relative movement of a representative shoreline contour (a proxy for beach volume change15) to assess the magnitude of coastal response and vulnerability.


...


Hmmmm increasingly strong El Ninos are having an effect! Not a good effect: beaches eroded, cliff failures, damage to property and infrastructure. Anyone remember the damage to the Great Ocean Road? And the waves might come from a direction that is not the usual direction waves come from, complicating the preparation of flood defences.

Quote:
Averaged across the six regions of the US West Coast, the winter shoreline retreat of 2015–2016 was the highest on record, with erosion 76% above the normal winter shoreline retreat, 27% higher than any other winter and easily eclipsing the El Niños of 2009–2010 (+12%) and 1997–1998 (−9%)


and

Quote:
every region except for Central California experienced the highest seasonal shoreline retreat ever measured, and beaches in Central and North-central California recorded the most


The difference in direction of the large El Nino waves:
Quote:
appears related to a latitudinal shift in the primary storm tracks and resulting wave generation location. Elevated wave energy flux during the winter of 2015–2016 exceeded the 1997–1998 event by 29% in Northern California and the Pacific Northwest, including a 44% increase off the coast of Washington. Conversely, higher mean (+37%) and elevated wave energy (+27%) was measured during 1997–1998 for Central and Southern California compared to the 2015–2016 winter. The distinct northerly wave direction anomaly and the smaller elevated wave energy flux anomaly in Southern California during 2015–2016 relative to 1997–1998 are likely related to storm tracks taking a more southerly route during the 1997–1998 El Niño


So storms were more northerly in 2015/6—weather systems are moving polewards due to AGW. However, the 2015/6 wave direction may be a one of.

Quote:
While projections of El Niño frequency and magnitude for the 21st century are variable, one recent study suggests a potential doubling of extreme El Niños, similar to the strength of the 2015–2016 event. Such a trend would result in more significant hazards risk to coastal communities, which would be compounded by anticipated sea-level rise.


Because of the huge waves pounding the coast beaches were eroded:
Quote:
2015–2016 El Niño winter may have disrupted the dynamic equilibrium of many US West Coast beaches for years to come, much like the highly anomalous wave activity and coastal response along the Atlantic coast of Europe during the winter of 2013–2014, the most energetic since at least 1948 (ref. 45)


California with its prolonged drought would have seen its beaches erode. The present huge rainstorms in NCalif should bring sediment to rebuild (prograde) beaches. What about Southern California, Oregon and Washington?

[quote]The potential for even more extreme coastal erosion during the 2015–2016 El Niño was also moderated by the earlier onset of peak annual high tides and the seasonal water-level anomaly associated with El Niño. The fall 2015 peaks in California, for example, were significantly earlier than
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lee
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #133 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:35am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:08am:
The three strongest El Ninos have been from 1982/3 on.



Supposition based on "reconstructions".

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:08am:
All this extensively footnoted in the study. El Nino and La Nina bring drought and flooding to opposite sides of the Pacific, hence the huge economic cost especially of large El Nino events. Add to this the enhanced erosion threatening coastal communities.


You know that OLD song "It never Rains in Southern California"?

This has been going on far longer than the time machine

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 5:04am:
Not a good effect: beaches eroded, cliff failures, damage to property and infrastructure.


And this has never happened before? Gold Coast beaches?
reconstructions.
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming
Reply #134 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:46am
 
Quote:
Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations over the past 60 million years


Paul N. Pearson1 & Martin R. Palmer2

Department of Earth Sciences, University of Bristol, Queens Road, Bristol BS8 1RJ, UK
T. H. Huxley School, Imperial College, RSM Building, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK
Correspondence to: Paul N. Pearson1 Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to P.N.P. (e-mail: Email: Paul.Pearson@Bristol.ac.uk).

Abstract
Knowledge of the evolution of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations throughout the Earth's history is important for a reconstruction of the links between climate and radiative forcing of the Earth's surface temperatures. Although atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations in the early Cenozoic era (about 60 Myr ago) are widely believed to have been higher than at present, there is disagreement regarding the exact carbon dioxide levels, the timing of the decline and the mechanisms that are most important for the control of CO2 concentrations over geological timescales. Here we use the boron-isotope ratios of ancient planktonic foraminifer shells to estimate the pH of surface-layer sea water throughout the past 60 million years, which can be used to reconstruct atmospheric CO2 concentrations. We estimate CO2 concentrations of more than 2,000 p.p.m. for the late Palaeocene and earliest Eocene periods (from about 60 to 52 Myr ago), and find an erratic decline between 55 and 40 Myr ago that may have been caused by reduced CO2 outgassing from ocean ridges, volcanoes and metamorphic belts and increased carbon burial. Since the early Miocene (about 24 Myr ago), atmospheric CO2 concentrations appear to have remained below 500 p.p.m. and were more stable than before, although transient intervals of CO2 reduction may have occurred during periods of rapid cooling approximately 15 and 3 Myr ago.



So CO2 concentration in the atmosphere appears to have been stable for 24 million years until we started burning fossil fuels. Clever us.
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