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liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum (Read 5845 times)
freediver
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liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Feb 21st, 2017 at 5:49pm
 
Classroom focus shifts to life skills

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/education/classroom-focus-shifts-to-life-skills/news-story/60121e302bd9d74b74a06bbee60c99b8

The underlying thrust of the NSW changes is to ensure students have a depth of understanding of topic, which means their skills are transferable.

“Depth in content is something that was previously, I would say, diluted, in order to achieve choice and diversity,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “The point of the learning is to get to the depth of content and the rigour of understanding, and the confidence and mastery over the content.’’

We have something called Shaping the Modern World,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “Now that ­begins with the Enlightenment, it goes through the development of liberal democracy, the French Revolution, it studies the concepts of liberty, inalienable rights, the Age of Imperialism, capitalism, the Industrial Age, and manufacturing. So, there’s no shying away from the sort of comments that conservative commentators might accuse us of.

The science curriculum will have increased mathematical content, especially in physics and chemistry, and a focus on learning scientific principles, theories and laws and contemporary applications.

Some old articles:

2012

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/blatant-bias-in-national-curriculum-could-damage-our-democracy-20120707-21noi.html

But from the start, the curriculum's politics were obvious. In its own words, it will create ''a more ecologically and socially just world''. The phrase ''ecological justice'' is rarely seen outside environment protests. Social justice is a more mainstream concept, but it's solidly of the left - it usually refers to ''fixing'' inequality by redistributing wealth.

So what are our nation's values? According to the civics draft, they are ''democracy, active citizenship, the rule of law, social justice and equality, respect for diversity, difference and lawful dissent, respect for human rights, stewardship of the environment, support for the common good, and acceptance of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship''.

It's quite a list. Some of the values, such as democracy and the rule of law, we all should agree on. But most are skewed sharply to the left.

Where, for instance, is individual liberty? The curriculum describes Australia as a liberal democracy but doesn't seem comfortable with what that means: a limited government protecting the freedom for individuals to pursue their own lives.

Conservatives should be troubled ''tradition'' is absent. Our institutions are the inheritance of centuries of experiment and conflict. To respect tradition is to value those institutions. Yet tradition only pops up when the draft talks about multiculturalism. It's part of ''intercultural understanding''. In other words, we are merely to tolerate the traditions of others, not value our own.

And liberals should be appalled at the emphasis on ''civic duty''. The curriculum could have said that individuals and families living their own lives in their own way is virtuous in itself. After all, people who do things for others in a market economy contribute to society as much as the most passionate political activist.

2011

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/04/07/3184809.htm

It's no exaggeration to say the National Curriculum is a document giving politicians enormous power over the lives of the country's citizens. The National Curriculum helps shape what people think. Eventually every single Australian will have been taught according to what's in the National Curriculum.

The fact that the National Curriculum helps determine what people think is explicitly acknowledged in the National Curriculum itself. For instance, in the History curriculum it is stated clearly:

"history provides content that supports the development of students' world views, particularly in relation to actions that require judgment about past social systems and access to and use of the Earth's resources."

The National Curriculum goes on to explain how the History curriculum

"provides opportunities for students to develop an historical perspective on sustainability by understanding, for example ... the overuse of natural resources, the rise of environmental movements and the global energy crisis."

Two things are noteworthy about this passage. First, it is a clear statement of the ideological intent of the History curriculum, namely to teach students about "the overuse of natural resources" and the "global energy crisis."

The second point is that the curriculum automatically assumes natural resources have been overused and there is a global energy crisis. According to the National Curriculum there's no room for debate about these issues, and students are not allowed to come to their own conclusions.

There are many other examples where the ideologically-driven nature of the National Curriculum is apparent. Let me give you just one more, again from the History curriculum.

2014

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-14/berg-national-curriculum:-written,-but-not-designed/5811108

The national curriculum is not really a national curriculum at all, but instead a blank slate onto which various education players can impose their own ideas. This is an indictment on our education establishment, writes Chris Berg.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2017 at 5:51pm
 
The full article from The Australian:

Classroom focus shifts to life skills

Senior students will be better prepared for work and further study under curriculum changes in NSW that lead the nation by ­improving writing skills, financial literacy, teaching how Western civilisation was shaped, and highlighting Robert Menzies’ place in Australia’s history.

The curriculum overhaul, the first in two decades, will “correct’’ the existing emphasis on studying a breadth of subjects to ensure students leave high school with deeper knowledge and the skills to navigate a changing world.

Maths will look at statistics and the algorithms used by Google for search engines, while English will include explicit references to structure, grammar, spelling, ­vocabulary and punctuation. Students taking history extension will better understand the nation-shaping role of the Anzacs in politics and culture.

NSW Education Standards Authority chairman Tom Alegounarias said: “This is our ­addressing of what we feel were shortcomings or corrections required to previous eras of curriculum development, particularly at the senior secondary level.’’

The changes address complaints about a lack of rigour in science studies. The physics curriculum was ripped to shreds as a “disaster’’ last month when one of the nation’s leading scientists, ­renowned quantum physicist Michelle Simmons, expressed horror that it had been “feminised’’ to make the discipline more appealing to girls by substituting mathematical formulae with essays.

The new maths, science, ­English and history syllabuses for the higher school certificate are released today after an extensive consultation process. Year 11 classes will adopt the reworked curriculum from next year.

The changes not only reflect the new national curriculum adopted by the other states but NSW has gone one step further by introducing a cross-curriculum emphasis on work and enterprise to future-proof its HSC students. More than 77,000 students sit the exam each year. The NSW syllabuses were miles ahead of the other states, Mr Alegounarias said, because the state had shifted its thinking to prepare students better for the ­demands of the workforce and further study.

“We’re not backing off indigenous perspectives or diversity; that’s our world. But we’ve faced up to issues such as where does work and enterprise fit in,’’ he said.

Kevin Donnelly, a senior ­research fellow at the Australian Catholic University, said many of the recommendations of the ­National Curriculum Review that he co-chaired had been adopted. “We recommended greater focus on essential content and more academic rigour, plus more about the history underpinning ­Western culture; the new NSW syllabuses reflect those recommendations,’’ Dr Donnelly said.

The underlying thrust of the NSW changes is to ensure students have a depth of understanding of topic, which means their skills are transferable.

“Depth in content is something that was previously, I would say, diluted, in order to achieve choice and diversity,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “The point of the learning is to get to the depth of content and the rigour of understanding, and the confidence and mastery over the content.’’

The internationally recognised HSC sets the standard for school assessments in other states and the NSW changes are likely to influence other curriculums.

The NSW Education Standards Authority, which replaces the Board of Studies Teaching and Education Standards, has also tackled criticisms that previous history topics lacked an emphasis on the movements and events that had shaped Western civilisation.

“We have something called Shaping the Modern World,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “Now that ­begins with the Enlightenment, it goes through the development of liberal democracy, the French Revolution, it studies the concepts of liberty, inalienable rights, the Age of Imperialism, capitalism, the Industrial Age, and manufacturing. So, there’s no shying away from the sort of comments that conservative commentators might accuse us of.”

He stressed those additions to the curriculum did not mean NSW had dropped indigenous perspectives. History retains World War I studies but they are shifted into Year 11 and World War II studies remain. History extension will include a look at the leadership and legacy of Australia’s longest-­serving prime minister, conservative Robert Menzies.

“You can’t study post-World War II Australia without studying Menzies and he’s mentioned explicitly on a number of occasions, but (former Labor prime minister) Gough (Whitlam) also gets a mention,’’ Mr Alegounarias said.

The curriculum also underscores Australia’s role in the Asian century. “We are a nation with a strong Western tradition that is situated in Asia at a time when the economic and social dynamic is centring on Asia,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “We will not back away from diversity as an important perspective in content but we don’t see that in competition with work and enterprise.’’

The science curriculum will have increased mathematical content, especially in physics and chemistry, and a focus on learning scientific principles, theories and laws and contemporary applications.

In English, a new topic called the craft of writing has been introduced to tackle language structure and the power of ­expression. Maths courses will be assessed on a common scale, which means students doing harder courses will be rewarded.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2017 at 6:22pm
 



Schoolchildren, imo, should also study, and discuss among themselves, what they believe will tend to produce a circumstance of peace and harmony within a society of men [and women [nod to MontyPython] ].

It is not tolerance [alone], imo.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/2#2



Read the writings of the founders of the constitution of the USA.





"There are only two races in the world, the decent and the indecent."

Victor Frankl - Nazi Holocaust survivor


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #3 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:26am
 
I was sure someone would take offence to this.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #4 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:40am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:26am:
I was sure someone would take offence to this.



Yep!  (eyebrows raised)
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #5 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:47am
 
Why the hell discuss Robert Menzies? Pig Iron Bob did what to shape our nation? Credit squeezes, 20% inflation, Korean War and Viet Nam War! Nobbled the CSIRO and wanted to shut down the Snowy Mountain Scheme. We know he spent 6 months in the UK taking home movies and waiting to be made UK PM so he could appease Hitler.

Why not John Curtin? He learned the lessons from the one term Scullin govt, directed the effort in WWII and at the same time developed a vision for post war Australia. What Menzies did, apart from idiocies like trying to ban the Communist Party was just carrying out Curtin’s vision.

This makes me suspect the whole new curriculum!
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #6 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:55am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:26am:
I was sure someone would take offence to this.




Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:47am:
Why the hell discuss Robert Menzies? Pig Iron Bob did what to shape our nation? Credit squeezes, 20% inflation, Korean War and Viet Nam War! Nobbled the CSIRO and wanted to shut down the Snowy Mountain Scheme. We know he spent 6 months in the UK taking home movies and waiting to be made UK PM so he could appease Hitler.

Why not John Curtin? He learned the lessons from the one term Scullin govt, directed the effort in WWII and at the same time developed a vision for post war Australia. What Menzies did, apart from idiocies like trying to ban the Communist Party was just carrying out Curtin’s vision.

This makes me suspect the whole new curriculum!




well you asked for it fd...


the trouble with history is

they cannot replicate the times... you had to live it, and experience it..

which for school kids is impossible...

no matter what we do or spend..the kids keep failing..

WHY IS THIS?.. I think one of the problems is quality teachers.......

people are not dedicated like they once were....teaching was always considered to be a calling....and you usually had to show you had more than just ability to get into Uni..

now the Unis take in everything... Roll EyesIm not convinced thats a good thing.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #7 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:03am
 
In principle the new curriculum sounds good to me!

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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #8 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:07am
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Menzies

Sir Robert Gordon Menzies, KT, AK, CH, PC, QC, FAA, FRS (20 December 1894 – 15 May 1978), was the Prime Minister of Australia from 1939 to 1941 and again from 1949 to 1966. He is Australia's longest-serving prime minister, serving over 18 years in total.

Menzies studied law at the University of Melbourne and became one of Melbourne's leading lawyers. He was Deputy Premier of Victoria from 1932 to 1934, and then transferred to federal parliament, subsequently becoming Attorney-General and Minister for Industry in the government of Joseph Lyons. In April 1939, following Lyons' death, Menzies was elected leader of the United Australia Party (UAP) and sworn in as prime minister. He authorised Australia's entry into World War II in September 1939, and in 1941 spent four months in England to participate in meetings of Churchill's war cabinet. On his return to Australia in August 1941, Menzies found that he had lost the support of his party and consequently resigned as prime minister. He subsequently helped to create the new Liberal Party, and was elected its inaugural leader in August 1945.

At the 1949 federal election, Menzies led the Liberal–Country coalition to victory and returned as prime minister. His appeal to the home and family, promoted via reassuring radio talks, matched the national mood as the economy grew and middle-class values prevailed, and the Labor Party's support had also been eroded by Cold War scares. After 1955, his government also received support from the Democratic Labor Party, a breakaway group from the Labor Party. Menzies won seven consecutive elections during his second term, eventually retiring as prime minister in January 1966. His legacy has been debated, but his government is remembered today for its development of Canberra (the national capital), its expanded post-war immigration scheme, its emphasis on higher education, and its national security policies, which saw Australia contribute troops to the Korean War, the Malayan Emergency, the Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation, and the Vietnam War.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:10am
 
So, what did he do that was of lasting good?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #10 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:15am
 
After living in China for three years.

I see considerable similarities in the way the Grubberment are gradually manipulating the young minds of today

Masquerading as an anti bullying education, we see the emasculation of boys and deliberate grooming of children for who knows what.

Now Govco are using the school system to try and elivate politicians from lying, corrupt, conniving thieves to some sort of hero.

Its all crap.

Teach the kids how to read, write and do math.
Allow their minds to grow and see the truth.
They will form their own opinions.

But thats just it
Politicians know if they do, that they will see these parasites and the corruption that is the Grubberment
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #11 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:28am
 
Are you saying we should not teach history formally?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #12 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:31am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:28am:
Are you saying we should not teach history formally?


History needs to be taught.

But not a sanitized version where politicians are made out to be either honest or uncorruptable.

The fact is that the grubberment is and always has, lied, cheated, withheld pertenant facts and been corrupt.

Ill bet 10 bob to a pound that this will not be part of the curriculum.

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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #13 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 9:40am
 
Curtin stood up to Churchill and Roosevelt separately and together in the matter of, first, getting our troops out of the ME and, more importantly getting them to PNG not Burma where the Japs would have captured them pretty effortlessly (the diggers didn’t have their heavy equipment in the convoy.)

Curtin the man and politician deserve some study IMHO while the blowhard Menzies did SFA really.

A curriculum making a howler like that is not worth adopting IMHO—what other howlers are there?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #14 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 6:51pm
 
How the West was brought undone by the new world order

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/how-the-west-was-brought-undone-by-the-new-world-order/news-story/a6608aea587023c798625218aaf0b0e4

In the late 1980s, Stanford University did away with its required Western civilisation course after Jesse Jackson led students in a chant of “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go!” Campus conservatives tried to bring it back last year, but the effort failed in a student vote by a six-to-one margin.

They should try pushing Western Civ again. To adapt the line in that Passenger song, you only know you love it when you let it go.

The thought comes to mind following Sergei Lavrov’s Orwellian speech last week at the Munich Security Conference, in which the Russian Foreign Minister called for a “post-West world order”. He also used the occasion to deny Moscow’s involvement in hacking US and European elections, to announce that his government would recognise passports issued by its puppet state in eastern Ukraine, and to call for an end to the “post-truth” and “post-fact” state of international relations.

Lavrov understands something that ought to be increasingly clear to US and European audiences: The West — as a geopolitical bloc, a cultural expression, a moral ideal — is in deep trouble.

However weak Russia may be economically, and however cynical its people might be about their regime, Russians continue to drink from a deep well of civilisational self-belief.

The same can be said about the Chinese, and perhaps even of the Islamic world too, troubled as it is.

The West? Not so much.

The US has elected a President who has repeatedly voiced his disdain for NATO, the World Trade Organisation and other institutions of the Western-led world order. He publicly calls the press “an enemy of the American people” and conjures conspiracy theories about voter fraud whose only purpose is to lend credence to his claim that the system is rigged. He is our first post-rational President, whose approach to questions of fact recalls the deconstructionism of the late Jacques Derrida: There are no truths; reality is negotiable.

Then there’s Europe, where youth unemployment runs close to 20 per cent and centrist politicians wonder why they have a problem. In France, the National Front’s Marine Le Pen is gaining in the polls, despite expert predictions that she can’t possibly win the presidency. In Holland, nationalist politician Geert Wilders says of Moroccan immigrants: “Not all are scum.” Where have we heard these things before?

In Munich over the weekend, Mike Pence implored NATO members to spend more on their defence — a complaint Europeans also heard from the Obama and Bush administrations. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel instantly brushed the US Vice-President’s plea aside. “I don’t know where Germany can find billions of euros to boost defence spending,” he said, “if politicians also want lower taxes.”

Berlin spends 1.2 per cent of its GDP on defence, well below the 2 per cent NATO requirement and among the lowest in Europe. As of 2014, it could deploy a grand total of 10 attack helicopters and one submarine. Does Germany still want the West, insofar as it’s able, to contribute to its collective defence?

What about other countries? Twenty-five years ago, becoming a part of “the West” was the dream from Budapest to Ulan Bator. Not anymore.

Russia took itself off the Westernisation track shortly after the turn of the century. Turkey followed a few years later. Thailand is on its way to becoming a version of what Myanmar had been up until a few years ago, while Malaysia is floating into China’s orbit. Ditto for The Philippines. Mexico may soon follow a similar trajectory if the Trump administration continues to pursue its bad-neighbour policy, and if a Chavista-like figure such as Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador comes to power in next year’s presidential election.

One can point to many reasons, specific and general, why the West no longer attracts imitators. Let’s point to the main reason.

There was a time when the West knew what it was about. It did so because it thought about itself — often in freshman Western Civ classes. It understood that its moral foundations had been laid in Jerusalem; its philosophical ones in Athens; its legal ones in Rome. It treated with reverence concepts of reason and revelation, freedom and responsibility, whose contradictions it learned to harmonise and harness over time. It believed in the excellence of its music and literature, and in the superiority of its political ideals. It was not ashamed of its prosperity. If it was arrogant and sinful, as all civilisations are, it also had a tradition of remorse and doubt to temper its edges and broaden its horizons. It cultivated the virtue of scepticism while avoiding the temptation of cynicism.

And it believed all of this was worth defending — in classrooms and newspapers and statehouses and battlefields.

We’ve since raised generations to believe none of this, only to be shocked by the rise of anti-Western politics. If you want children to learn the values of a civilisation that can immunise them from a Trump, a Le Pen or a Lavrov, you can start by teaching it.

The Wall Street Journal
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #15 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 10:01pm
 
Only one paragraph in that article rings true. This one:

Quote:
There was a time when the West knew what it was about. It did so because it thought about itself — often in freshman Western Civ classes. It understood that its moral foundations had been laid in Jerusalem; its philosophical ones in Athens; its legal ones in Rome. It treated with reverence concepts of reason and revelation, freedom and responsibility, whose contradictions it learned to harmonise and harness over time. It believed in the excellence of its music and literature, and in the superiority of its political ideals. It was not ashamed of its prosperity. If it was arrogant and sinful, as all civilisations are, it also had a tradition of remorse and doubt to temper its edges and broaden its horizons. It cultivated the virtue of scepticism while avoiding the temptation of cynicism.


The rest is mostly misguided. Trump, Le Pen etc. are only effects of an already demoralised West. The actual point of when it went downhill is debatable, but it is certainly not Trump or Le Pen. Personally, I place the downfall when the radicals took over the universities and politics in the 1960-70s. Western history and culture was vastly reinterpreted at this time. The guilt and loathing industry rewrote the history books and this trickled down into everyday culture. Others argue that the downfall starts with Boas anthropology, others go as far back as the French Revolution. Whatever the case, 'The Wall Street Journal' is way off the mark.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #16 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 10:01am
 
The footprint of the French revolution are the wealthy liberal democracies of western Europe.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #17 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 10:17am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 21st, 2017 at 5:49pm:
Classroom focus shifts to life skills

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/education/classroom-focus-shifts-to-life-skills/news-story/60121e302bd9d74b74a06bbee60c99b8

The underlying thrust of the NSW changes is to ensure students have a depth of understanding of topic, which means their skills are transferable.

“Depth in content is something that was previously, I would say, diluted, in order to achieve choice and diversity,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “The point of the learning is to get to the depth of content and the rigour of understanding, and the confidence and mastery over the content.’’

We have something called Shaping the Modern World,’’ Mr Alegounarias said. “Now that ­begins with the Enlightenment, it goes through the development of liberal democracy, the French Revolution, it studies the concepts of liberty, inalienable rights, the Age of Imperialism, capitalism, the Industrial Age, and manufacturing. So, there’s no shying away from the sort of comments that conservative commentators might accuse us of.




The oligarchy setting the agenda to produce robots once again.

If it's set in stone you cannot refute it or debate it.

Personal opinion and thought don't count.

Stay inside the box my son, it's safer in here.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #18 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 10:27am
 
That must be why they included the French Revolution.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #19 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 2:48pm
 
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.

There is also the argument, which I in part agree with, that this was the beginning of resentment based politics that we see today. Preachers of equality cannot tolerate anyone above them, which begets and validates envy and resentment fueled political movements. Awe and reverence dissipate from this time.    
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #20 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 6:05pm
 
You make it sound like people had a choice how to establish liberal democracy. Would you tell people living in Africa's tinpot dictatorships to seek only small incremental steps towards freedom and democracy? Do you think the dictators would be more cooperative if they only saw their power being eroded a little bit at a time?

Don't you think that the fate of the French leaders served as motivation for the British Monarchy? The only reason the British didn't need all the beheadings is because their monarchy was weaker to begin with.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #21 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 7:23pm
 
So many questions.
You've taken a very linear view of life and history (very Fukuyama like). Freedom (as in negative freedom?) and democracy aren't strictly determined evolutions or progressions. Non-Western countries, even the Mediterranean countries, are more collective, whereby (negative?) freedom plays second fiddle to the collective or traditional structures of culture and family.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #22 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 8:32pm
 
Do you think any of these people had a choice how to establish liberal democracy?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #23 - Feb 25th, 2017 at 9:29pm
 
We should go a few steps backward first and ask, do they want or need to establish liberal democracy?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #24 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 10:46am
 
Of course not. People survive just fine even in the most brutal dictatorships.

Quote:
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.


Do you think any of these people had a choice how to establish liberal democracy?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #25 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 11:09am
 


Do you think any of these people had a choice how to establish liberal democracy?


I would say no.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #26 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 11:19am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 10:46am:
Of course not. People survive just fine even in the most brutal dictatorships.

Quote:
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.


Do you think any of these people had a choice how to establish liberal democracy?


Which people?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #27 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 11:29am
 
The British and French.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #28 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 11:30am
 
There are always choices.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #29 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 12:14pm
 
So the French should have simply chosen a gradual British-style transition to liberal democracy?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #30 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 12:23pm
 


So the French should have simply chosen a gradual British-style transition to liberal democracy?

No, I think the other royal families from Europe may have intervened given time
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #31 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 12:39pm
 
Intervened how? To stop the French monarchy slaughtering the slow and dimwitted reformers?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #32 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 1:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 12:14pm:
So the French should have simply chosen a gradual British-style transition to liberal democracy?


It could have been done with less bloodshed.


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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #33 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 1:16pm
 
What's the fascination with liberal democracy anyway?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #34 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 3:10pm
 


Intervened how? To stop the French monarchy slaughtering the slow and dimwitted reformers?

No, they would have assisted the French Monarchy slaughtering the peasants
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #35 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 5:54pm
 
Quote:
It could have been done with less bloodshed.


It could have also failed completely. How much blodsheed do you think would have been "just enough"?

Quote:
What's the fascination with liberal democracy anyway?


Perhaps they realise it has revolutionised the world.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #36 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 6:01pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
What's the fascination with liberal democracy anyway?


Oh, I think historians like to look back fondly on it, Mistie.

So weak and self-loathing, I know.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #37 - Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 5:54pm:
It could have also failed completely. How much blodsheed do you think would have been "just enough"?


dunno. it's your story.

Quote:
Perhaps they realise it has revolutionised the world.


in some respects.   
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #38 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 8:24pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 9:55pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 26th, 2017 at 5:54pm:
It could have also failed completely. How much blodsheed do you think would have been "just enough"?


dunno. it's your story.


You are the one pretending they had a choice about how much blood they had to shed, not me. If you want to retract it, just retract it. I can't do that for you.

Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps they realise it has revolutionised the world.


in some respects.   


Important ones? Like freedom and democracy? Or are these concepts just distractions from your fascination with shifting borders?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #39 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 8:24pm:
You are the one pretending they had a choice about how much blood they had to shed, not me. If you want to retract it, just retract it. I can't do that for you.


you brought choice into it.
do you have military experience on overthrowing governments, or should I say, monarchies? 

Quote:
Important ones? Like freedom and democracy? Or are these concepts just distractions from your fascination with shifting borders?


dafuq?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #40 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:06pm
 
Quote:
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.


This is you. I have asked you several times whether you are suggesting choice on their part or not. You cannot seem to make up your mind.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #41 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:09pm
 
i answered that in reply 28.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #42 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:15pm
 
OK, so you are the one going on about the "questionable" amount of blood shed by the French revolutionaries. You are the one saying they had a choice in the matter. But it is my story and I have to explain it to you?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #43 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:22pm
 
as indicated, Robespierre and the jacobins have extremist mindsets and are mass murderers. that isn't even my main beef with the revolution. my main beef was, as indicated, that the emphasis on equality begat and validated resentment based politics.

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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #44 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 9:28pm
 
Do you think we should discard concepts like equality before the law to get people to stop whining? What exactly are you complaining about?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #45 - Feb 28th, 2017 at 6:40pm
 
it's not equality before the law that's the problem (although there is no equality before the law when you need large amounts of money to hire a lawyer). the problem is the envy of success. some people resent it and form entire political movements around it.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #46 - Feb 28th, 2017 at 7:13pm
 
Oh gosh. Their own political movements? Based on their own ideas? I can see why you are so keen to reject the enlightenment.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #47 - Feb 28th, 2017 at 10:17pm
 
trying to be karnal eh. meh.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #48 - Mar 1st, 2017 at 6:45pm
 
OK, so what exactly is the problem then? Being able to form your own political movement is a good thing, and far better than what came before. Equality is hardly a dangerous ideology.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #49 - Mar 2nd, 2017 at 3:22pm
 
i've given a clue above as to why some aspects of it are problematic. i really couldn't be bothered putting in too much effort on here explaining it though.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #50 - Mar 2nd, 2017 at 7:26pm
 
Have you considered that it might be more appropriate to contribute those problems to the specific political movements rather than the French revolution? Otherwise you just end up blaming the French for every problem that has beset democracies since.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #51 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 10:54am
 
I stated before in this thread that I lay most of the blame onto the radicals of the 1960-70s, as it was them who almost completely rewrote the history books and reinterpreted culture.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #52 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 8:04pm
 
This is what you actually said:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 25th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.

There is also the argument, which I in part agree with, that this was the beginning of resentment based politics that we see today. Preachers of equality cannot tolerate anyone above them, which begets and validates envy and resentment fueled political movements. Awe and reverence dissipate from this time.    


Was your comparison with the British intended as a criticism of the French?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #53 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 10:01pm
 
my reply 51 is in regards to reply 15, which came before the section you quoted, which is reply 19.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #54 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 10:06pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 25th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
Britain never had a French style revolution but ended up being wealthier. While there's no doubt that the Revolution did spawn ideas on freedom, equality and liberty - as we see them today - the amount of blood spilled in order to establish them with the totalitarian style of Robespierre and the Jacobins is highly questionable. Britain did it relatively peacefully by enacting small incremental changes in rights over time.

There is also the argument, which I in part agree with, that this was the beginning of resentment based politics that we see today. Preachers of equality cannot tolerate anyone above them, which begets and validates envy and resentment fueled political movements. Awe and reverence dissipate from this time.    


Was your comparison with the British intended as a criticism of the French?
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #55 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 10:07pm
 
yes, i think that's been established.
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Re: liberty, democracy, capitalism in new curriculum
Reply #56 - Mar 4th, 2017 at 8:54am
 
But you don't want to talk about it?
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