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Poll Poll
Question: Should Brian Ross be permanently banned?

No    
  7 (35.0%)
Yes    
  10 (50.0%)
Only suspended for a time.    
  3 (15.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: Lord Herbert on: Mar 11th, 2017 at 7:50pm »

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first 18c threat against OzPolitic (Read 13419 times)
Lord Herbert
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #30 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:32am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:22am:
Section 18C does not render unlawful anything said or done reasonably and in good faith:

                     (a)  in the performance, exhibition or distribution of an artistic work; or

                     (b)  in the course of any statement, publication, discussion or debate made or held for any genuine academic, artistic or scientific purpose or any other genuine purpose in the public interest; or

                     (c)  in making or publishing:

                              (i)  a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest; or

                             (ii)  a fair comment on any event or matter of public interest if the comment is an expression of a genuine belief held by the person making the comment.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/rda1975202/s18c.html


That's reassuring. BTW, who gets to decide what is reasonable?


The highlighted wording is so rampant with opportunities for subjective interpretation and screwing around with what the offender intended and what he didn't - that it would almost be impossible to get a conviction.

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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #31 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:41am
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:15am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:12am:
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 7:02am:
Aussie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:10pm:
Herbert......

Do you realise how self contradictory that post is?  You want him banned because you want to censor his freedom of speech in the market place and on the internet ...


Nonsense.

He crossed the line when he announced he would arrange for a member here to suffer penalties at law for expressing opinions about our Muslim community.

It's going way beyond the pale of Free Speech on a forum board when someone states that he intends to lodge proceedings against a member whose opinions he disagrees with. Threatening to do so is one thing, but making assurances that he will contact the relevant authorities to have them prosecute a case against Yadda - is in a very different ballpark.


It was A joke.


From what do you make that groundless assumption?



Because a person like Brian Ross wouldn't waste his time bringing such an issue to the Human Commission. He has better things to do. He's just stirring you up, and it seems to have worked. Besides, the HRC isn't going to care about what goes on (on) an internet forum. I would humbly request that you cease this nonsense.



But they cared about a short private conversation in a study room in a second rate university, so why not a public forum?


Firstly don't threaten someone unless you intend to carry out that threat

Secondly, if you are not known for your jocularity and intend on making a 'joke' use a fkken smiley face to show your intent.

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Lord Herbert
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #32 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:46am
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
Because a person like Brian Ross wouldn't waste his time bringing such an issue to the Human Commission.

He has better things to do.


He had time to give Yadda some concern about being reported to a government authority.

Threatening is one thing, but assuring someone that he fully intends to report him as having breached the 18c laws is no joke and not a matter to be taken lightly.

Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
He's just stirring you up, and it seems to have worked.


Unless you're a Brian Ross sock you know no such thing.





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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #33 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:47am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:41am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:15am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:12am:
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 7:02am:
Aussie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:10pm:
Herbert......

Do you realise how self contradictory that post is?  You want him banned because you want to censor his freedom of speech in the market place and on the internet ...


Nonsense.

He crossed the line when he announced he would arrange for a member here to suffer penalties at law for expressing opinions about our Muslim community.

It's going way beyond the pale of Free Speech on a forum board when someone states that he intends to lodge proceedings against a member whose opinions he disagrees with. Threatening to do so is one thing, but making assurances that he will contact the relevant authorities to have them prosecute a case against Yadda - is in a very different ballpark.


It was A joke.


From what do you make that groundless assumption?



Because a person like Brian Ross wouldn't waste his time bringing such an issue to the Human Commission. He has better things to do. He's just stirring you up, and it seems to have worked. Besides, the HRC isn't going to care about what goes on (on) an internet forum. I would humbly request that you cease this nonsense.



But they cared about a short private conversation in a study room in a second rate university, so why not a public forum?


Firstly don't threaten someone unless you intend to carry out that threat

Secondly, if you are not known for your jocularity and intend on making a 'joke' use a fkken smiley face to show your intent.



I'm not familiar with the specific case you're talking about. Even if the HRC did care, they shouldn't and this is a reflection of their social justice warrior streak. A university is a place for expression, as is a forum.

No court of law would take seriously what anyone on this forum would say, unless (I presume) there was clear evidence of a process of organizing and recruiting people to carry out violence (which there isn't). I would be extremely surprised if any court of law took seriously what people said in an internet forum.

Second, a joke probably isn't the correct term I should use. Brian Ross likes being provocative. I understand how such a threat could come across as disconcerting to yourself, given the 18C of the Act; I'd probably be worried for a few days if someone made a threat like that. In reality, however, making Islamphobic comments (and I don't know you well enough on this forum to make that assertion about you) is quite different to the Andrew Bolt case.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #34 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:49am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:46am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
Because a person like Brian Ross wouldn't waste his time bringing such an issue to the Human Commission.

He has better things to do.


He had time to give Yadda some concern about being reported to a government authority.

Threatening is one thing, but assuring someone that he fully intends to report him as having breached the 18c laws is no joke and not a matter to be taken lightly.

Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:30am:
He's just stirring you up, and it seems to have worked.


Unless you're a Brian Ross sock you know no such thing.


Even if he was serious, I highly doubt that any court would take seriously such a claim.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #35 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:14am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:41am:
Firstly don't threaten someone unless you intend to carry out that threat.


Here's the distinction - Ross didn't threaten, but gave assurances in two posts as to what he intended to do.


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« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:54am by Lord Herbert »  
 
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #36 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:15am
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:49am:
Even if he was serious, I highly doubt that any court would take seriously such a claim.


That's not the issue here.



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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #37 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:20am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:15am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:49am:
Even if he was serious, I highly doubt that any court would take seriously such a claim.


That's not the issue here.





Look, I appreciate your point of view. I wouldn't make that kind of threat or 'claim of intention' to anyone, and he should'n't have done it. I also don't think that his comments justify expulsion from this Forum.

I think he should apologize, but I guess he would be too stubborn to do that. Maybe you should create a poll asking if Brian should apologize. I would vote yes for it.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #38 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:21am
 
Quote:
Because a person like Brian Ross wouldn't waste his time bringing such an issue to the Human Commission. He has better things to do. He's just stirring you up, and it seems to have worked. Besides, the HRC isn't going to care about what goes on (on) an internet forum. I would humbly request that you cease this nonsense.


I think it is more likely that the HRC, despite their flaws, had the sense to ignore Brian's complaint. I assure you Brian does not have better things to do. After all, he apparently has a doctor of divinity.

Quote:
The highlighted wording is so rampant with opportunities for subjective interpretation and screwing around with what the offender intended and what he didn't - that it would almost be impossible to get a conviction.


And yet their have been plenty, because the ambiguity works in the HRC's favour. They can pick and choose how to impose themselves on those they disagree with. And even where there is not a conviction, spending a fortune on a lawyer alone is a strong enough incentive for most to self-censor.

Quote:
No court of law would take seriously what anyone on this forum would say, unless (I presume) there was clear evidence of a process of organizing and recruiting people to carry out violence (which there isn't). I would be extremely surprised if any court of law took seriously what people said in an internet forum.


Australian courts jailed Gerald Fredrick Toben for his opinion on matters of modern history, published on a website far less popular than this one, with no evidence at all of violent intent or organisation.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #39 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:36am
 
Quote:
Australian courts jailed Gerald Fredrick Toben for his opinion on matters of modern history, published on a website far less popular than this one, with no evidence at all of violent intent or organisation.


Ok, I just looked up briefly the case regarding Toben. He was jailed in Germany. In Germany they have specific laws against that sort of stuff. He also appeared before a magistrate in London. How did the Australian courts jail him?

He was jailed in Australia for 3 months for 'contempt of court' not because of what he wrote.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #40 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:41am
 
His "contempt of court" consisted of refusing to censor his own website. The court was basically backing up the findings of the HREOC under section 18c with a jail sentence for anyone who refuses to comply. So you can literally be jailed for your opinion in Australia. The opinion that got him into jail was a matter of history. So our courts have been brought in by the HREOC to impose the dominant paradigm of thought on people.

I am sure Brian sees it as a fantasy come true.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #41 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:44am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:41am:
His "contempt of court" consisted of refusing to censor his own website. The court was basically backing up the findings of the HREOC under section 18c with a jail sentence for anyone who refuses to comply. So you can literally be jailed for your opinion in Australia.

I am sure Brian sees it as a fantasy come true.


Mmm. Ok, so this a bit of grey area. He wasn't jailed for his views, but for refusing to comply with the court. These are two different offences. I don't agree that the court should be able to force him to shut it down; but he went against the court action.

The way you said it was in such manner as though he were jailed 'for publishing anti-Holocaust literature.' When this was not the case.

The case of Brian Ross simply has no equivalence.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #42 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:48am
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:20am:
Look, I appreciate your point of view. I wouldn't make that kind of threat or 'claim of intention' to anyone, and he should'n't have done it. I also don't think that his comments justify expulsion from this Forum.

I think he should apologize, but I guess he would be too stubborn to do that. Maybe you should create a poll asking if Brian should apologize. I would vote yes for it.


Good post. You're showing some willingness to compromise here.

I'll leave a new poll for Ross to organise.

Both our politician Conway and the United Nations have wanted to censor the balls off freedom of speech on the Internet, and it should grieve us all to witness Brian Ross helping in this regard.

It's time he came out from under his rock and made a Statement of Retraction and Regret here for all to see.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #43 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:51am
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:44am:
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:41am:
His "contempt of court" consisted of refusing to censor his own website. The court was basically backing up the findings of the HREOC under section 18c with a jail sentence for anyone who refuses to comply. So you can literally be jailed for your opinion in Australia.

I am sure Brian sees it as a fantasy come true.


Mmm. Ok, so this a bit of grey area. He wasn't jailed for his views, but for refusing to comply with the court. These are two different offences. I don't agree that the court should be able to force him to shut it down; but he went against the court action.

The way you said it was in such manner as though he were jailed 'for publishing anti-Holocaust literature.' When this was not the case.

The case of Brian Ross simply has no equivalence.


It is the case. He was jailed for publishing an incorrect opinion on matters of history. The fact that it took a long time, and a court order, does not change this. The court order was only possible because 18c effectively made it a jailable offence for him to express his opinion. It is not logically possible to separate his jailing from his expression of his opinion or section 18c. His expression of his opinion was the act that landed him in jail.
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Re: first 18c threat against OzPolitic
Reply #44 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:51am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:48am:
Auggie wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:20am:
Look, I appreciate your point of view. I wouldn't make that kind of threat or 'claim of intention' to anyone, and he should'n't have done it. I also don't think that his comments justify expulsion from this Forum.

I think he should apologize, but I guess he would be too stubborn to do that. Maybe you should create a poll asking if Brian should apologize. I would vote yes for it.


Good post. You're showing some willingness to compromise here.

I'll leave a new poll for Ross to organise.


Thank you. I appreciate that.
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