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Do the Math. (Read 13864 times)
issuevoter
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #30 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 9:02am
 
In the absence of Sappho, the moderator, who may have died, and would have consequently settled the matter once and for all, I don't believe this forum is for Atheists. It is for the discussion of Atheism from any point of view, and as such, logic is not a prerequisite. And anyway, Atheists allow themselves to be categorised by what they don't believe. Not exactly logical, if you call it a belief.

As for the proof that Jesus Christ actually lived, it is reasonable to say that with references from Roman, Jewish and Islamic sources, a figure of fitting those descriptions probably did live. If we discount Jesus purely on the absence of a birth certificate, we can discount most of humanity. What is not reasonable, is to believe in that person as superhuman. Christians were in competition with other religions, many of which had crowd pleasing gimmicks. It is therefore reasonable to suggest such feats as walking on water, the bread and fish routine, and rising from the dead, were the stock in trade of charlatans interested in perpetuating Christ's charismatic oratory; an oratory before a rather simple and superstitious population. 
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Amadd
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #31 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 11:38am
 
issuevoter wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 9:02am:
In the absence of Sappho, the moderator, who may have died, and would have consequently settled the matter once and for all, I don't believe this forum is for Atheists. It is for the discussion of Atheism from any point of view, and as such, logic is not a prerequisite. And anyway, Atheists allow themselves to be categorised by what they don't believe. Not exactly logical, if you call it a belief.

As for the proof that Jesus Christ actually lived, it is reasonable to say that with references from Roman, Jewish and Islamic sources, a figure of fitting those descriptions probably did live. If we discount Jesus purely on the absence of a birth certificate, we can discount most of humanity. What is not reasonable, is to believe in that person as superhuman. Christians were in competition with other religions, many of which had crowd pleasing gimmicks. It is therefore reasonable to suggest such feats as walking on water, the bread and fish routine, and rising from the dead, were the stock in trade of charlatans interested in perpetuating Christ's charismatic oratory; an oratory before a rather simple and superstitious population. 



You are right. The forum is open to anybody, however, it's atheist discussion.

You are wrong. There is no proof at all that Jesus Christ ever existed as a human being. He is actually an allegorical figure that represents the sun.
Any famous human being of that period would have multitudes of literature written about them.
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issuevoter
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #32 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:01pm
 
Amadd wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 11:38am:
issuevoter wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 9:02am:
In the absence of Sappho, the moderator, who may have died, and would have consequently settled the matter once and for all, I don't believe this forum is for Atheists. It is for the discussion of Atheism from any point of view, and as such, logic is not a prerequisite. And anyway, Atheists allow themselves to be categorised by what they don't believe. Not exactly logical, if you call it a belief.

As for the proof that Jesus Christ actually lived, it is reasonable to say that with references from Roman, Jewish and Islamic sources, a figure of fitting those descriptions probably did live. If we discount Jesus purely on the absence of a birth certificate, we can discount most of humanity. What is not reasonable, is to believe in that person as superhuman. Christians were in competition with other religions, many of which had crowd pleasing gimmicks. It is therefore reasonable to suggest such feats as walking on water, the bread and fish routine, and rising from the dead, were the stock in trade of charlatans interested in perpetuating Christ's charismatic oratory; an oratory before a rather simple and superstitious population. 



You are right. The forum is open to anybody, however, it's atheist discussion.

You are wrong. There is no proof at all that Jesus Christ ever existed as a human being. He is actually an allegorical figure that represents the sun.
Any famous human being of that period would have multitudes of literature written about them.


I am not wrong. I did not say Christ existed, I said it is reasonable to think someone fitting the references did exist.
If you are the slightest bit interested in those references, here is a good place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus



As to it being an "Atheist discussion," make it so if you wish, but here is my opening post again:

OK. In the absence of a Religion forum, I am posting this here, even though its got nothing to do with Atheism.

I would like someone to explain why one God is better than a Pantheon of dieties, like the Greeks and Romans had.
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Amadd
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #33 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:05pm
 
Quote:
I am not wrong. I did not say Christ existed, I said it is reasonable to think someone fitting the references did exist.
If you are the slightest bit interested in those references, here is a good place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus



Goodo. Now we're getting somewhere.
It amazes me that even atheists are afraid to discuss the high probability that Jesus Christ never existed.

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issuevoter
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #34 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:12pm
 
Amadd wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
I am not wrong. I did not say Christ existed, I said it is reasonable to think someone fitting the references did exist.
If you are the slightest bit interested in those references, here is a good place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus



Goodo. Now we're getting somewhere.
It amazes me that even atheists are afraid to discuss the high probability that Jesus Christ never existed.



Start a thread on the subject.
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Amadd
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #35 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:22pm
 
I thought that this is a thread on the subject.

What am I allowed to discuss here?

Jesus is God? Is he really?

Of course  I've already read all of that (non) information which seems to me to conclude that a lack of evidence is evidence enough of his non-existence. I've read about it over and over. Why do you think I'm so certain that Jesus Christ never existed?

In reply to your initial question, my answer is that no God means anything to me. Nothing more than a leaf, a rock, or indeed a dog turd on the pavement.

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« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:33pm by Amadd »  
 
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #36 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 2:07pm
 
It's probable perhaps even highly likely that a Jesus figure or figures existed. All myths have a basis in truth.

It was a time when there were many preachers wondering the land. Jesus is most likely an amalgamation of various preachers rolled into one.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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issuevoter
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #37 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 8:28pm
 
Amadd wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 12:22pm:
I thought that this is a thread on the subject.

What am I allowed to discuss here?

Jesus is God? Is he really?

Of course  I've already read all of that (non) information which seems to me to conclude that a lack of evidence is evidence enough of his non-existence. I've read about it over and over. Why do you think I'm so certain that Jesus Christ never existed?

In reply to your initial question, my answer is that no God means anything to me. Nothing more than a leaf, a rock, or indeed a dog turd on the pavement.



How about I start a new thread on the plurality of Gods, and you keep this one?

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Amadd
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #38 - Feb 14th, 2017 at 12:30am
 
Nah it's OK. Thanks for the offer.

Maybe I am a bit off topic here, however, considering that Jesus is widely considered "God", it's not so much off-topic IMHO.

In regards to the plurality of gods....all I can say is pfft!...I don't believe in one or all. They are all merely control mechanisms to me.

Most people who believe in a supernatural controlling entities believe in only one god these days.
I just choose to believe in one less.

...and not that I haven't experienced many unusual happenings. I have experienced plenty that defy
any known logical explanation. However, I choose to look to the brilliant scientific minds out there who have devoted their lives to explaining through tough, toil and amazing thought processes.

In the future, maybe we will see it as "natural" to experience some things which defy our current  logic.
When the nature of the universe is more understood, it may just be "par for the course" that some people with close attachments are going to experience unusual happenings like I have many times.

Personally, I look to the great logical minds for answers if I so require them rather than those who I see as peddlers of lies.
Because, if you look at it logically, it's plain to see that religions are merely a bastardization of logical truths and good intention in order to usurp power.
Not that I think that all people of the cloth are intent this way, I don't. However, I think that they've been led up the garden path somewhat and they are lackeys for their higher power.

So, the truth that Jesus Christ, as a living breathing person sent down in god's image...or whatever, is most certainly just a bunch of crap IMO.

Maybe you will read what you posted to me sometime with an open mind and realise that there is a total lack of evidence that such an amazing being ever existed, or indeed even a run of the mill person.
Yes I've seen all that before and it's been ripped to shreads over and over.
Still, even the so-called atheists choose to believe that there was an actual person named "Jesus Christ" without even reading logically that this is just an allegorical depiction of something else.

I need to ask you...are you doing the math?




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« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2017 at 12:44am by Amadd »  
 
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #39 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 12:06am
 
Do you see it yet mate?

I'm fine and dandy to not kick up a stink about which god or gods are better than one another, however, you are bringing up this topic in an atheist room where, any God is not even a belief.

So, if you think that you have the right to "put me into line" and exert your authority over me for posting "on topic" debates, regarding this room, then go ahead and do so.







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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #40 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 1:50am
 
Amadd wrote on Feb 17th, 2017 at 12:06am:
Do you see it yet mate?

I'm fine and dandy to not kick up a stink about which god or gods are better than one another, however, you are bringing up this topic in an atheist room where, any God is not even a belief.

So, if you think that you have the right to "put me into line" and exert your authority over me for posting "on topic" debates, regarding this room, then go ahead and do so.



Using logic, playing the hand I've been dealt, I see you Aremad. Wink
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #41 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 2:14am
 
Raven wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
It's probable perhaps even highly likely that a Jesus figure or figures existed. All myths have a basis in truth.

It was a time when there were many preachers wondering the land. Jesus is most likely an amalgamation of various preachers rolled into one.



Keep going, and keep pressing. It was a world largely without literature. Where stories were the vehicle of truth, not lies.

The scientists of the time told stories to convey their truths. These were real truths, not bastardized lies.

Scientists in every corner of the earth had come to realise the movement of the planets and the importance of this knowledge upon all humanity. The only way to convey this knowledge at the time was through storytelling. Not surprisingly, these scientists (or physicists) were thought of as the magi, because they could predict the future by looking at the movement of the stars and planets.

They could tell the masses when to reap and when to sow. And they shared this freely through the best vehicle available, which was storytelling. Pagan festivals are still what we celebrate to this day for the times of significance.

When literature became more widespread, the need for storytelling became less of a necessity.
Hence, the bastardization of truth for political endeavors took it's course.

Look into it some more and realise that religion was born from the bastardization of these stories, not from honest intent.

The problem with our generation is that we had the vehicle to truth, but chose to ignore. It's a pity what you do to your children, it's your fault.

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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2017 at 2:49am by Amadd »  
 
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #42 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 4:45am
 
Amadd, you claim logic but your logic is not rational. Because you disbelieve in Jesus does not mean there is no god. I don't not believe in any god man has told me about but could there be a god we have not been told about? One not a petty tyrant? A creator of the universe?

I won't take the label of atheist I have been given that far, although I'm happy enough to wear it. I just disbelieve in all the gods man has proposed. I cannot know all, therefore cannot discount there is a god somewhere, it would be the height of arrogance to think one could know there is none although it is quite reasonable not to believe in any that we have been told about.

Your fixation on Jesus is telling. Why do you not talk about YHWY, Allah, Thor, Zeus or Taranis? What are you trying to prove? Are you an apostate Christian trying to convince yourself, or are you trying to convince us?

The reasonable and logical man would not presume to know all, he would understand the limitations imposed by his(lack of) knowledge. There would always be a maybe, even though he may well be able discount all the gods he has been informed about.

"Doubt 'til thou canst doubt no more . . . doubt is thought and thought is life. Systems which end doubt are devices for drugging thought." Albert Guerard

Doubt yourself also, doubt is the beginning of wisdom.

Now I'm done being serious with you.
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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2017 at 4:53am by Setanta »  
 
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Amadd
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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #43 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 11:15pm
 
Quote:
Amadd, you claim logic but your logic is not rational. Because you disbelieve in Jesus does not mean there is no god.


Let's break this down a little shall we?

Take it one step at a time and realise that you are making connections illogically.
Did I ever say that because there was no Jesus, therefore no God? (There is no "Jesus is God". I think that's a given).

You seem to be making irrational assumptions there.
Yes, I am totally open to any real evidence that some supernatural controlling power exists, however, I have seen no evidence of that beyond what may be scientifically explained someday.

For now, I would like people to look more into the origins of Christianity and realise that it is based upon planetary movements and the stories within which were the best vehicle at the time for spreading knowledge.
Hence, we still celebrate dates which align with seasonal changes, not any supernatural happenings.

FYI, I have great respect for the hard working, hard thinking truth tellers throughout history and I have little or no respect for those who have bastardised that for self-gain.




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Re: Do the Math.
Reply #44 - Feb 17th, 2017 at 11:38pm
 
Amadd wrote on Feb 17th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Quote:
Amadd, you claim logic but your logic is not rational. Because you disbelieve in Jesus does not mean there is no god.


Let's break this down a little shall we?

Take it one step at a time and realise that you are making connections illogically.
Did I ever say that because there was no Jesus, therefore no God? (There is no "Jesus is God". I think that's a given).

You seem to be making irrational assumptions there.
Yes, I am totally open to any real evidence that some supernatural controlling power exists, however, I have seen no evidence of that beyond what may be scientifically explained someday.

For now, I would like people to look more into the origins of Christianity and realise that it is based upon planetary movements and the stories within which were the best vehicle at the time for spreading knowledge.
Hence, we still celebrate dates which align with seasonal changes, not any supernatural happenings.

FYI, I have great respect for the hard working, hard thinking truth tellers throughout history and I have little or no respect for those who have bastardised that for self-gain.



  It's the only sane approach.

So your fixation is on Christianity? Why?
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