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Why 18C doesn't limit free speech (Read 8386 times)
Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #105 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 10:17am
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:13am:
Ah. You didn't see it either eh?


What is the Post Number, freediver?


Kunning, no?

FD is such a smarty he won't define the very thing he rails on about daily.

The question I have is why. Why do you think FD refuses to say?
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Aussie
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #106 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 11:37am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 10:17am:
Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:13am:
Ah. You didn't see it either eh?


What is the Post Number, freediver?


Kunning, no?

FD is such a smarty he won't define the very thing he rails on about daily.

The question I have is why. Why do you think FD refuses to say?


When he thinks others have done that or 'run away.' he says it is because they are 'sacred.'  He wouldn't be scared, would he?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #107 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 11:53am
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 11:37am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 10:17am:
Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:13am:
Ah. You didn't see it either eh?


What is the Post Number, freediver?


Kunning, no?

FD is such a smarty he won't define the very thing he rails on about daily.

The question I have is why. Why do you think FD refuses to say?


When he thinks others have done that or 'run away.' he says it is because they are 'sacred.'  He wouldn't be scared, would he?


But why would he be scared? He's allowed an opinion. What's scary about it?
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freediver
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #108 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 12:03pm
 
Quote:
No one cares about the swear filter FD.


Certain confused individuals think it restricts their freedom of speech. Of course this does not exclude the possibility that they do not care. That would actually make more sense.

Quote:
Freedom of speech does not mean you get to say whatever you want without consequences. It simply means the government can't stop you from saying it.


Do you think the government is stopping Toben from denying the holocaust?

Raven wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 3:15am:
freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 11:22pm:
Now, do you have any more points to make, or are you just here to whine about the swear word filter?


No one cares about the swear filter FD. But it would be nice if you to nailed down your definition of free speech.


It seems to change from thread to thread.


Is there something wrong with the definitions I have already provided?

Is there anything in particular that makes you think I am changing the definition?

Have you given up on the argument that 18c does not limit freedom of speech?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #109 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 12:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 12:03pm:
Is there something wrong with the definitions I have already provided?


Not at all, FD, it just contradicts your whole argument:

Quote:
Freedom of speech and expression are not absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[7]


This is why you've been asked to provide your own definition, or change Wikipedia's.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #110 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 11:34am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2017 at 5:50pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 5th, 2017 at 5:48pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2017 at 5:46pm:
Let me google that for you Aussie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.[1][2][3][4] The term freedom of expression is sometimes used synonymously, but includes any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.
The right to freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the ICCPR states that "everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". Article 19 additionally states that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".[5][6]
Freedom of speech and expression are not absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[7]


Is that YOUR definition, FD?


I copied it and pasted it from wikipedia Aussie. But feel free to demonstrate your infinite ability to misunderstand using that definition instead of mine.


Its a reasonable question FD. This is just one definition, and Aussie- and I for that matter - are interested in your thoughts. Do you agree with this definition to the letter? Do you agree for example with the list of limitations? What limitations do you agree with? You've mentioned the old 'fire in the cinema' ban as justified before - what about some of the others? I can't imagine you agree with the "fighting words" limitation - yes?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #111 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 12:07pm
 
Raven wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:34pm:
Oh ok so it's perfectly acceptable to limit free speech in certain situations, one of which being "I own this website and if I don't like what you say you can't say it and if you do say it you will be punished."


And herein lies the paradox that FD hasn't been able to deal with. There is an ideological purpose behind the creation of this website - to facilitate free political discourse. FD has stated this himself. In effect, this website is a little model of FD's ideal world - a free world that is free from government censors, free from the PC police issuing gagging orders. And while its absolutely correct for FD to state that it is his right as the owner of this site to allow and disallow what he wishes, and while he is also correct that it doesn't impinge on your freedom to have your speech disallowed on his private forum - it simply doesn't gel with the lofty, idealistic principles of freedom that is the stated purpose of this site. As I've said before - FD does not impinge upon your free speech rights by censoring you, but he does become a hypocrite: contradicting the very principle on which this site was created in the first place.

Quote:
Ohhhh... So your freedom is more important than someone else's? It\s ok to limit free speech if it conflicts with what you want?


Some ideological background if I may: the most important and overriding principle of the libertarian is the right to property. Freedom comes after this. Listen to Tim Wilson's maiden speech to parliament - he said exactly this.

Now I'm not sure if FD regards himself a libertarian, but his attitude here seems consistent with this 'hierarchy of rights' that the libertarians hold. Thus his argument that his exclusive right to dictate and control what happens on his property, trumps your right to have your freedom of speech on it.

But as I say, this hierarchy becomes a little bit compromised when the "property" is specifically created as a conduit of freedom. Its not like FD opening the doors to his house and insisting you take off your muddy shoes. Its more like FD opening the doors to his house specifically to cater for people who don't like taking their shoes off at other people's homes - and then telling them they have to take off their shoes.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #112 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 12:18pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:13am:
Ah. You didn't see it either eh?


What is the Post Number, freediver?


Its the one where he said 'freedom of speech = liberty of speech'.

Yes, thats literally it. Deep huh? Right after he quoted a wiki article that he indicated he doesn't even agree with.

Not surprising he is reluctant to refer back to it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #113 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 12:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 12:18pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:13am:
Ah. You didn't see it either eh?


What is the Post Number, freediver?


Its the one where he said 'freedom of speech = liberty of speech'.

Yes, thats literally it. Deep huh? Right after he quoted a wiki article that he indicated he doesn't even agree with.

Not surprising he is reluctant to refer back to it.


Well let's ask him, shall we?

FD, what's your definition of free speech?

When FD answers this one, G, we can ask a supplementary.
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #114 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 6:25pm
 
Quote:
Its a reasonable question FD. This is just one definition, and Aussie- and I for that matter - are interested in your thoughts. Do you agree with this definition to the letter?


I don't see any problems with it.

Quote:
Do you agree for example with the list of limitations?


Yes, they are all things that limit freedom of speech, but they are not exclusive.

Quote:
What limitations do you agree with?


All the ones I listed except, to some extent, obscenity and pornography. Not sure about the fighting words one. The article went on to give examples from China, which I deliberately left out.

Quote:
And herein lies the paradox that FD hasn't been able to deal with. There is an ideological purpose behind the creation of this website - to facilitate free political discourse. FD has stated this himself. In effect, this website is a little model of FD's ideal world - a free world that is free from government censors, free from the PC police issuing gagging orders.


Incorrect. I believe people should be free to advertise, make pornography etc. Yet these things are explicitly banned here - again, without restricting anyone's freedom of speech. Perhaps you should stick to quoting what I say. This is a politics website, not a microcosm of utopia.

Quote:
And while its absolutely correct for FD to state that it is his right as the owner of this site to allow and disallow what he wishes, and while he is also correct that it doesn't impinge on your freedom to have your speech disallowed on his private forum - it simply doesn't gel with the lofty, idealistic principles of freedom that is the stated purpose of this site.


What doesn't?

Quote:
Some ideological background if I may: the most important and overriding principle of the libertarian is the right to property.


Sounds more like the capitalist to me.

Quote:
Right after he quoted a wiki article that he indicated he doesn't even agree with.


What are you talking about?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #115 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 8:05am
 
FD?
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #116 - Jan 12th, 2017 at 11:47am
 
Yes Karnal?
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #117 - Jan 12th, 2017 at 2:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 12th, 2017 at 11:47am:
Yes Karnal?


What's your definition of free speech?
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #118 - Jan 13th, 2017 at 8:12pm
 
Ah. You missed it to eh?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Why 18C doesn't limit free speech
Reply #119 - Jan 13th, 2017 at 8:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 13th, 2017 at 8:12pm:
Ah. You missed it to eh?


No, I asked what it was.

I can ask another question if you like.
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