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Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c (Read 42019 times)
Mr Hammer
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #75 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #76 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's sketchy?
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Belgarion
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #77 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:59pm
 
mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:38pm:
He did far more than hold an opinion. He told people about it. That is how Mothra knows that 18c is not a threat to freedom of speech. All he had to do was keep his opinion to himself.



No, he could share it. People say on here all sorts of things that contravene 18c.

Are they prosecuted?

No, they're usually backed up.

Publicising something under your own name and inviting public comment that vilifies people is a direct breach of 18 and if indefensible under 18d can be ordered to be taken down.

You cannot go to jail for that opinion though. You can only be asked not to publicise it.

How is this a difficult concept for you?


And if you do publicise it, you can go to gaol. Do you not see that for all the weasel words saying otherwise, the law can imprison someone for expressing an opinion.
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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Aussie
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #78 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:00pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:59pm:
mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:38pm:
He did far more than hold an opinion. He told people about it. That is how Mothra knows that 18c is not a threat to freedom of speech. All he had to do was keep his opinion to himself.



No, he could share it. People say on here all sorts of things that contravene 18c.

Are they prosecuted?

No, they're usually backed up.

Publicising something under your own name and inviting public comment that vilifies people is a direct breach of 18 and if indefensible under 18d can be ordered to be taken down.

You cannot go to jail for that opinion though. You can only be asked not to publicise it.

How is this a difficult concept for you?


And if you do publicise it, you can go to gaol. Do you not see that for all the weasel words saying otherwise, the law can imprison someone for expressing an opinion.


Incorrect.  Read the Act.

This is a tad long....but worth the read.  You will better understand why you are incorrect.

Link.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #79 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:04pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's ketchy?
Many of those deaths were not from gas chambers. Most were from disease and malnutrition in the camps. That's what those skinny bodies are. Near the end of the war Germany couldn't even feed it's army let alone internees. The Jews , Gypsies, mentally and physical disabled , gay, Russians, POW's  etc suffered a major injustice by the Nazi's but certain facts need to be set straight. History has been written by emotion and not fact regarding the holocaust. And many people know it.
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Belgarion
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #80 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:10pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:00pm:
Belgarion wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:59pm:
mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:38pm:
He did far more than hold an opinion. He told people about it. That is how Mothra knows that 18c is not a threat to freedom of speech. All he had to do was keep his opinion to himself.



No, he could share it. People say on here all sorts of things that contravene 18c.

Are they prosecuted?

No, they're usually backed up.

Publicising something under your own name and inviting public comment that vilifies people is a direct breach of 18 and if indefensible under 18d can be ordered to be taken down.

You cannot go to jail for that opinion though. You can only be asked not to publicise it.

How is this a difficult concept for you?


And if you do publicise it, you can go to gaol. Do you not see that for all the weasel words saying otherwise, the law can imprison someone for expressing an opinion.


Incorrect.  Read the Act.

This is a tad long....but worth the read.  You will better understand why you are incorrect.

Link.


I have had a read of it, and this particular piece of legislation does not apply to Toben .....yet Toben is still in gaol....for ignoring a court order designed to shut him up. Maybe not 18C, yet the law is till being used to prevent someone expressing an opinion. This is the crux of the matter - not what piece of legislation is being used, but that in Australia the the law is being used to prevent freedom of speech.
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #81 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:19pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:04pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's ketchy?
Many of those deaths were not from gas chambers. Most were from disease and malnutrition in the camps. That's what those skinny bodies are.


Of course. They starved them to death. That's what concentration camps are for.

Here you go, FD. This is what your Freeeeedom encourages: the denial of history; the denial of genocide; Nazi apologism.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #82 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:21pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:19pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:04pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's ketchy?
Many of those deaths were not from gas chambers. Most were from disease and malnutrition in the camps. That's what those skinny bodies are.


Of course. They starved them to death. That's what concentration camps are for.

Here you go, FD. This is what your Freeeeedom encourages: the denial of history; the denial of genocide; Nazi apologism.
What's your opinion on our fellow Australians calling jan 26th 1788 Invasion Day?
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Aussie
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #83 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:22pm
 
Quote:
I have had a read of it, and this particular piece of legislation does not apply to Toben .....yet Toben is still in gaol....for ignoring a court order designed to shut him up.


You can't have read it.  Tobin was jailed for three months in 2009.

He was ordered to stop publishing material.  He defied the order.  That is a contempt of Court.  He later apologised for doing so.

As Raven has already pointed out......say what you like, but accept the legal consequences, if any.

There is no Country on this Planet (well....none I know of) where there is an absolute right to freedom of speech.

I asked FD to give us his definition of freedom of speech in one of the other three Threads.  I guess you will not be surprised to learn that he is yet to do so.
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Belgarion
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #84 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:36pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:22pm:
Quote:
I have had a read of it, and this particular piece of legislation does not apply to Toben .....yet Toben is still in gaol....for ignoring a court order designed to shut him up.


You can't have read it.  Tobin was jailed for three months in 2009.

He was ordered to stop publishing material.  He defied the order.  That is a contempt of Court.  He later apologised for doing so.

As Raven has already pointed out......say what you like, but accept the legal consequences, if any.

There is no Country on this Planet (well....none I know of) where there is an absolute right to freedom of speech.

I asked FD to give us his definition of freedom of speech in one of the other three Threads.  I guess you will not be surprised to learn that he is yet to do so.


Should have read  "Toben was still in gaol."   he was gaoled for contempt of a court which ordered him to stop publishing his opinions. In a free society no court should be able do do such a thing.
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)
 
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Aussie
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #85 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:43pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:36pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:22pm:
Quote:
I have had a read of it, and this particular piece of legislation does not apply to Toben .....yet Toben is still in gaol....for ignoring a court order designed to shut him up.


You can't have read it.  Tobin was jailed for three months in 2009.

He was ordered to stop publishing material.  He defied the order.  That is a contempt of Court.  He later apologised for doing so.

As Raven has already pointed out......say what you like, but accept the legal consequences, if any.

There is no Country on this Planet (well....none I know of) where there is an absolute right to freedom of speech.

I asked FD to give us his definition of freedom of speech in one of the other three Threads.  I guess you will not be surprised to learn that he is yet to do so.


Should have read  "Toben was still in gaol."   he was gaoled for contempt of a court which ordered him to stop publishing his opinions. In a free society no court should be able do do such a thing.


Let's say you are in front of a Judge who has issued you with a fine.  Do you reckon you'd get away with "You're an arsehole.  You're a fruitloop, a joke who would not know chit from clay.  The legal system is as corrupt as you are."

What do you reckon would happen next?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #86 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:45pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:21pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:19pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:04pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's ketchy?
Many of those deaths were not from gas chambers. Most were from disease and malnutrition in the camps. That's what those skinny bodies are.


Of course. They starved them to death. That's what concentration camps are for.

Here you go, FD. This is what your Freeeeedom encourages: the denial of history; the denial of genocide; Nazi apologism.
What's your opinion on our fellow Australians calling jan 26th 1788 Invasion Day?


I think it's a bit simplistic, but it sums up what happened in 1788.

You call asylum seekers in Europe an invasion, so you're sure to understand.
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Mr Hammer
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #87 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:50pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:45pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:21pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:19pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:04pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Vilified. Didn't he deny the holocaust. Why did the powers that be want it taken down?


I guess because it infringed on 18C and there was no valid defence under 18D?
so under 18c he offended jews by his opinions.


Denying the Holocaust is more than just offending a few Jews. Holocaust survivors live in its shadow, as do their descendants. The one thing they left the concentration camps with was the compulsion to get the message out, to tell the story.

Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.
How do you know that all of it is true or not overblown for political purposes? History is bad for being corrupted. All of it is. It's been proven that the numbers killed have been massively overblown. Differing opinions on the holocaust should be encouraged because it's pretty sketchy.


Most European Jews were gassed to death, Homo. Which part's ketchy?
Many of those deaths were not from gas chambers. Most were from disease and malnutrition in the camps. That's what those skinny bodies are.


Of course. They starved them to death. That's what concentration camps are for.

Here you go, FD. This is what your Freeeeedom encourages: the denial of history; the denial of genocide; Nazi apologism.
What's your opinion on our fellow Australians calling jan 26th 1788 Invasion Day?


I think it's a bit simplistic, but it sums up what happened in 1788.

You call asylum seekers in Europe an invasion, so you're sure to understand.
Making up comments from me again Karnal. You'd make a great Nazi. Call my family's  forced migration to Australia an invasion like a virus all you like. But don't get crappy when I call Muslims barbarians  or Jews greedy history distorters and meddlers. Nobody has a right not stop others from being insulted. Get over it and thicken your skin.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #88 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:55pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:22pm:
Quote:
I have had a read of it, and this particular piece of legislation does not apply to Toben .....yet Toben is still in gaol....for ignoring a court order designed to shut him up.


You can't have read it.  Tobin was jailed for three months in 2009.

He was ordered to stop publishing material.  He defied the order.  That is a contempt of Court.  He later apologised for doing so.

As Raven has already pointed out......say what you like, but accept the legal consequences, if any.

There is no Country on this Planet (well....none I know of) where there is an absolute right to freedom of speech.

I asked FD to give us his definition of freedom of speech in one of the other three Threads.  I guess you will not be surprised to learn that he is yet to do so.


No Aussie, he has. He describes it as the Freeeeedom to be a bigot. This is FD's only definition to date, and we're sticking with it.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Threat to freedom of speech isn't 18c
Reply #89 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:57pm
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:50pm:
Call my family's  forced migration to Australia an invasion like a virus all you like.


I don't think we have a public holiday for your family's forced migration, Homo. Maybe you should lobby Pauline.
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