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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 88872 times)
freediver
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #180 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm
 
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #181 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:
Quote:
a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.


Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.

Quote:
Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion?


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion


I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.

In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.

Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #182 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:25pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:12pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:
Quote:
a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.


Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.

Quote:
Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion?


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion


I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.

In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.

Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ?


Free speech is about politics. Political free speech. I don't thing anyone pretends you can say whatever you like where ever you like to whoever you like.

A bit like here, you call someone a paedo without evidence that you would take to court and you will get a holiday. Discuss what you like about politics.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #183 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:31pm
 
Quote:
Free speech is about politics. Political free speech.


I'm not sure that is what Tobin was on about.  I've asked FD about this twice now....and no response.

What is 'your' definition of freedom of speech?
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freediver
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #184 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:50pm
 
Quote:
I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.


According to the HREOC it did. 18c itself is hopelessly vague. You will find nothing in there to give you a clear answer on what violates it, or whether the decision on Toben was tainted by his overwhelming unpopularity. In any case, I was not asking you to read the court ruling.

Quote:
In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.


I was asking whether it should, not whether it did. Do your own personal views make it easier for you to discard his freedom of speech?

Quote:
Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ?


Not in principle. I see slander as a 'just consequence' of the kind others here talk of but do not understand. I am glad to see we have had some reform in Australia since I last looked into it. There are others that are more of a grey area, but none I am aware of that are such a clear and grievous attack on freedom of speech as 18c.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #185 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:58pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:31pm:
Quote:
Free speech is about politics. Political free speech.


I'm not sure that is what Tobin was on about.  I've asked FD about this twice now....and no response.

What is 'your' definition of freedom of speech?


I gave it. Huh I consider Toben's crap political.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #186 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 9:09pm
 
Quote:
.....freedom of speech.....


Why are you 'scared' of giving us your definition of this thing you keep on and on about, freediver?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #187 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:51am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?


No. Sorry, I know you asked a few times.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #188 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:59am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:42am:
Are you suggesting that free speech implies a right to get your idiotic views published on whatever website you want?


Not on any website, but a public website that is open to anyone who wishes to join.well, that is free speech isn't it?

Why? Are you impling that free speech is a myth? that speech comes with restriction, rules and regulations that must be upheld?



freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:
Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.


That's your argument? cheap petty shots?  Grin Grin way to go FD!
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #189 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm
 
This is not really a public website John. Its owned by Freediver (to a degree - technically you could say his webhost "owns" it), and maintained by him out of his own pocket. A "public" website would be one that is owned by the taxpayers I suppose.

Still, censoring what is published on your own website does, IMO, reflect your values regarding free speech. Now let me demonstrate FD's values in terms of the expression of these following words:

black person
nice person
bugger
nice person
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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John Smith
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #190 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #191 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:01pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.


Thats his choice though. Nothing is stopping him from introducing fees or restrictions if he wanted to. The point is, we are all here at the pleasure of FD, and its his prerogative to allow or disallow whatever speech he likes. 

Basically, FD is correct to say your right to free speech is not violated in any way by what he chooses to public on the forum that he personally owns. But I'll repeat, the way he censors the website does betray his values regarding free speech. The fact that he chooses to prevent people from publishing certain "offensive" words on his forum, would make him something of a hypocrite if he advocates people's right to have the freedom to say these words. Or to put it another way, if he supported people having the right to express these words, why would he censor them when they say them on his forum?
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« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:11pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Raven
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #192 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 3:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:41pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.



I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Raven will answer yours when you answer his (guess Raven will never answer it then)


Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either. Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


No. And you still haven't answered the question

Toben is still free to espouse his views, his free speech hasn't been impinged.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #193 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:18pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John. Its owned by Freediver (to a degree - technically you could say his webhost "owns" it), and maintained by him out of his own pocket. A "public" website would be one that is owned by the taxpayers I suppose.

Still, censoring what is published on your own website does, IMO, reflect your values regarding free speech. Now let me demonstrate FD's values in terms of the expression of these following words:

black person
nice person
bugger
nice person


We're all nice persons, G. It would only be censorship if FD banned us from saying words like vagina in Celtic.

That would not be Freeeeedom.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #194 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:36pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:01pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.


Thats his choice though. Nothing is stopping him from introducing fees or restrictions if he wanted to. The point is, we are all here at the pleasure of FD, and its his prerogative to allow or disallow whatever speech he likes. 

Basically, FD is correct to say your right to free speech is not violated in any way by what he chooses to public on the forum that he personally owns. But I'll repeat, the way he censors the website does betray his values regarding free speech. The fact that he chooses to prevent people from publishing certain "offensive" words on his forum, would make him something of a hypocrite if he advocates people's right to have the freedom to say these words. Or to put it another way, if he supported people having the right to express these words, why would he censor them when they say them on his forum?


Yes, but would it be hypocritical to value freedom of speech above all else, but refuse to express your own opinion?

Would it be hypocritical to repeatedly and aggressively demand answers from others, but leave a discussion when answers are requested from you?

would it be hypocritical to make stuff up about the views of others, but scream blue murder when they (correctly) summarize your own perspective?

And would it be hypocritical to accuse others of being pedantic while you sift through their words with a fine tooth comb for 20-odd pages?

I'm curious.
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