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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 88888 times)
Setanta
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #150 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:31pm
 
Would any of you like to respond to this?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #151 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm
 
Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:41pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.



I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Raven will answer yours when you answer his (guess Raven will never answer it then)


Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either. Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


You'll figure it out one day John. When you do, it will seem like you always knew.

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


I'm beginning to think you won't figure it out FD.

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in


now, why don't you answer my question? Are you afraid?


So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?

Quote:
Would any of you like to respond to this?


You will have to dumb it down a bit Setanta.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #152 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:37pm
 
FD.....maybe it is time you provided your definition of freedom of speech.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #153 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.



freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either.


you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #154 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #155 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:25pm
 
Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.


bullet? throwing from helicopters? Seriously Sentanta, thats the sort of ridiculous comment I would expect from FD.

Do you think people should be allowed to ignore court orders without any consequences whatsoever?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #156 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:25pm:
Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.


bullet? throwing from helicopters? Seriously Sentanta, thats the sort of ridiculous comment I would expect from FD.

Do you think people should be allowed to ignore court orders without any consequences whatsoever?


Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.

So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.

The court order is enabled by legislation, 18c.

Should read: There should be no consequence for political speech from the govt or it's agencies.
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« Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:38pm by Setanta »  
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #157 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm
 
Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.



legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.



Consequences range, from being ridiculed, to being sued for defamation or slander, to facing more serious charges such as inciting a riot etc. In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by. Toben didn't suffer any real consequences for saying what he said, apart from being ordered not to. Tobins most serious consequences came about because he ignored a court order.

We simply cannot function properly as a society if people pick and choose which court orders they will or will not follow.

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm:
That sounds kinda religious, but anyway... The judge acted within the law, no doubt, who made the legislation? Yes the govt. So if the govt brought back the DP and legislated that penalty for nutty deniers, that would be OK? This is exactly what has happened legally in many countries to purge the "others". John you know this is wrong.

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« Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2016 at 8:14am by John Smith »  

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #158 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:
Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.



legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.



Consequences range, from being ridiculed, to being sued for defamation or slander, to facing more serious charges such as inciting a riot etc. In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by. Toben didn't suffer any real consequences for saying what he said, apart from being ordered not to. Tobins most serious consequences came about because he ignored a court order.

We simply cannot function properly as a society if people pick and choose which court orders they will or will not follow.

That sounds kinda religious, but anyway... The judge acted within the law, no doubt, who made the legislation? Yes the govt. So if the govt brought back the DP and legislated that penalty for nutty deniers, that would be OK? This is exactly what has happened legally in many countries to purge the "others". John you know this is wrong.


Think about it John and not your duel with FD, which I don't care about in the least, laws are meant to be in the best interest of the majority and not ignore the minority. When the govt rather than society can dictate what you can say and the punishment for it, just because...

Locking nutters up for their views is not a good thing, you may be next. We just need someone to legislate it.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #159 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:11am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:36pm:
Gerald Fredrick Töben is an Adelaide man who was jailed for denying the holocaust, in contravention of section 18c of the racial discrimination act. The Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission first ruled against Toben in 2000. It took another 9 years for them to get him jailed for denying the holocaust by escalating the matter to the federal court. Toben's crime was to continue to publish holocaust denial material from his website (the Adelaide Institute).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Some members here are so desperate to defend section 18c that they have started denying it is the reason for his jailing, in particular Aussie, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and the usual apologists (Gandalf being a curious exception). Aussie's explanation of this is classic apologetics. Aussie actually agrees that Toben was jailed for not refraining from denying the holocaust, but insists it is "a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to say instead that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. To support this, he presented evidence that concluded that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust (without Aussie's absurd distinction that he was jailed for not refraining from doing so). John Smith seems to think that the problem with 18c is best resolved by removing contempt of court legislation rather than 18c itself.

This is as good a reason as any to defend freedom of speech. If not, you leave yourself at the mercy of this sort of idiocy.

John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:56am:
Does FD think we should revoke 'contempt of court' legislation too?

It would seem that if his concern was Tobin, that should be the legislation he should be targeting, instead of lying about 18c.


The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:26am:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:07am:
That's the one. The contempt took the form of denying the holocaust, in violation of 18c.



But he was actually jailed for contempt of court. I'm glad that's cleared up.


Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 12:50pm:
18c is more about penalising the misuse or abuse of freedom of speech

You are not going to claim that what Bold did was ok are you ?


Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 2:26pm:
Seems to me that the critics of 18c like to tell lies about past court cases that had absolutely nothing to do with section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act.   I wonder why?  Do you think lying?    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:15pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:10pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 6:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:57pm:
Sure. Has anyone suggested an alternative means of arriving at damages?

Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)


I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.


Your own words Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:

Quote:
So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?


....as he was ordered to do by the Court.


Your own words again Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:
Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?


How many times must I do that for you freediver?   I have agreed with that.


The evidence you introduced Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?


Yes.


the very thing the crazy leftist say that they believe in and are champions of defending... IS FREE SPEECH..

BUT

they've done everything that they can to can free speech unless if fits their own narrative..

you only have to go back as far as the crazy Labor  Gillard/Greens coalition government when they've tried to bring in censorship..

and when Gillard herself was ringing around to the bosses of the press to get reporters sacked!!  Angry
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #160 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 8:12am
 
Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm:
Think about it John and not your duel with FD, which I don't care about in the least, laws are meant to be in the best interest of the majority and not ignore the minority. When the govt rather than society can dictate what you can say and the punishment for it, just because...



the govt. is representative of society. Ultimately, if society feels the law is unfair, it will change. I don't think it is and I don't have a problem with it.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #161 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:47pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.



freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either.


you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


You are the one who is struggling. Which of the following is correct:

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #162 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:47pm:
You are the one who is struggling.



not at all ... I've told you my position many times. That you refuse to believe it is your problem



John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:
legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.



John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:
In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.



John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:
of course he is. And he did.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in. We live in a society bound by rules and regulations. Without it society cannot function. Sure, he can ignore the court order, but there will be consequences to his actions.


John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.


Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm:
Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?




and there are probably a dozen other comments by me that explain my position. Not sure how many times I have to repeat them to you. Are you pretending not to understand because to do otherwise would be to concede your position, or are you really that thick?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #163 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:57pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


can you clarify this FD? A simple yes or no will do.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #164 - Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:10pm
 
Still struggling I see John. No need to dig up a dozen quotes of you dodging the same question.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it

John Smith wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:57pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


can you clarify this FD? A simple yes or no will do.


I disagree with Toben, but unlike you I don't see that as a justification for putting him in jail.
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