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Poll closed Poll
Question: Should same-sex marriage be legal in Australia
*** This poll has now closed ***


YES    
  29 (39.2%)
NO    
  45 (60.8%)




Total votes: 74
« Last Modified by: Emma on: Sep 28th, 2016 at 10:16pm »

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Same Sex Marriage (Read 38527 times)
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #510 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:40am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 28th, 2016 at 10:33pm:
Emma wrote on Sep 28th, 2016 at 10:31pm:
Oh you cut me to the quick. Grin


Je suis desolate. Smiley


Desmond O'Late?  Wasn't he Irish and a playwright?  Or was that the Spanish padrone, Des Ole`?
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #511 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:42am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 28th, 2016 at 11:59pm:
So recent Poll (not this one) shows reducing popularity for the plebiscite.. finally people are waking up to the sting in the tale..  Roll Eyes

let the people's representatives do their job. A vote in Parliament is the only way forward now. Hopefully the government will now recognise and acknowledge their little trick isn't what the people want, or need. Most of us, I am sure, think there are many better ways to use $174,000,000, than a political ploy.
Lets stop the BS LNP MPs and get on with your job.
You're not winning any hearts or votes with these political games.  Angry

.


Let the people decide - handing it to the idiots in Cambra will only continue the argument forever, and will start up fresh ones, such as 'arrogation of the right of the people', 'churches being compelled by government fiat to carry out mundane commands', etc....
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #512 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:44am
 
Oh?  this is a stuck thread....

Let The People Decide! 

Power To the People On The Poles and Wires Sale!  (FSS - how far does a piddling $20bn go after its been handled by politicians?  Bet we don't see a single hospital or a single highway that is not some mate's private road, and I can guarantee you we won;t see better schools).....
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #513 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:45am
 
Not so Ham. People have expressed opinions on here. They are repetitive dogma about the definition of 'marriage'. Definitions which now reside in the past. It is past time the people are all treated as equals in society, as an important measure of our relevance as a society. It is not good enough to say that some 'group' is not worthy of equitable treatment because of their variation from some nebulous 'norm'.

To my mind it is a division in society that we really do not need. Lets address broader issues of equality that exist in our society, rather than allow ourselves to be distracted by what is, for most Australians, a non-issue. It is an unnecessary fragmentation, when a simple decision would remove the issue from the public arena, so that we can move on to things like poverty, marginalisation and serious domestic issues.
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #514 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:00am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:44am:
Oh?  this is a stuck thread....

Let The People Decide! 

Power To the People On The Poles and Wires Sale!  (FSS - how far does a piddling $20bn go after its been handled by politicians?  Bet we don't see a single hospital or a single highway that is not some mate's private road, and I can guarantee you we won;t see better schools).....


But Grappler.. the people have decided. Some of the people want to keep the power of churches over the lives of people who differ from the norm, and put the religious view of our world as the number one priority on this matter. That seems to be the major objection by most people who argue against same sex marriage.

It seems to be a power struggle between the religious and the secular view of what people are. It reflects the continuing decline in the power of religion in human daily life.
Why Australians feel the need to hold out against governance by reason and not prejudice probably arises from our historical roots as a society which is a nation constructed on old values . The convicts sent to the new world as slaves of the masters because they stole a loaf of bread has morphed into a divisive issue between church and state, and reflects the distrust in societal values as opposed to the religious.

I don't believe this proposed plebiscite is anything but pearls before swine.
If it was a real binding referendum of the people it might have more validity... as it stands it is just a cynical exercise in manipulation.
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #515 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:08am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:40am:
Emma wrote on Sep 28th, 2016 at 10:33pm:
Emma wrote on Sep 28th, 2016 at 10:31pm:
Oh you cut me to the quick. Grin


Je suis desolate. Smiley


Desmond O'Late?  Wasn't he Irish and a playwright?  Or was that the Spanish padrone, Des Ole`?



**face palms** - Now I remember - Des O'Latte` was an Irish coffee importer in the Nineteenth Century....

"In Eighteen hundred and Forty Three
Latte` clippers put to sea,
For quality coffee and tea,
Quality coffee and tea...."

That was before the Harris family took over the line.....

Thread too slow - I agree that there are more important issues to be handled....
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« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:24am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #516 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:15am
 
But.. but, Emma - the churches wanting to retain the separation of State and Church isn't the churches seeking to impose on others.... they simply want to do their own thing in their own way.

Once you allow the State to march in with guns drawn and force them to do its bidding, you are undoing the entire edifice of separation of State and Church..... and the right to practice one's own religious beliefs.

Are you suggesting that the State should dictate to the churches that they MUST perform gay marriages?  Terribly Bolshie or Fascie of you, if so.

If every attendee at every church voted No - the majority is still open - and not all church-goers are going to vote No.....

I don't see the problem here with allowing those people their say.  To do so IS an abrogation of a Right, that of a Church to abide by its religious tenets, whereas gay marriage, or any marriage for that matter, is not defined as a Right.  Any law that forces churches to marry those they consider to be outside their sacraments is a violation, whereas gay marriage, per se, may well be open to legislation.

Still far better, to avoid the never-ending arguments that will arise, to put the issue to the people.  I wouldn't trust any government as far as I could throw them.
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #517 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:19am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:45am:
Not so Ham. People have expressed opinions on here. They are repetitive dogma about the definition of 'marriage'. Definitions which now reside in the past. It is past time the people are all treated as equals in society, as an important measure of our relevance as a society. It is not good enough to say that some 'group' is not worthy of equitable treatment because of their variation from some nebulous 'norm'.

To my mind it is a division in society that we really do not need. Lets address broader issues of equality that exist in our society, rather than allow ourselves to be distracted by what is, for most Australians, a non-issue. It is an unnecessary fragmentation, when a simple decision would remove the issue from the public arena, so that we can move on to things like poverty, marginalisation and serious domestic issues.



The problem with that position, Emma, is that it predicates ONLY one outcome - acceptance of 'gay marriage', rather than a distinct choice between the two sides of the argument.  In order to attain what the 'Yes' lobby deem to be 'equality', all other sides must be set aside, regardless of the value of their arguments.

I am never happy with government decreeing to the masses....they haven't done too well for the past forty years or so....
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #518 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:22am
 
"If it was a real binding referendum of the people it might have more validity... as it stands it is just a cynical exercise in manipulation. "

That's why I say - Let the People Decide - in a binding referendum.

Personally, in consideration of my niece and the ex's nephew and gay friends I've had in the past, I'm happy to vote yes.... I've put my arguments before, starting with 'it does no harm'....
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #519 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:19am
 
I'm not saying Churches must marry gay couples.. there is nothing wrong with marriage celebrants and all the other methods of legal marriage. I don't see a problem for churches at all. What you suggest is exactly what that looney far right MP Christensen was saying earlier this morning.. can't you see the fallacy of the argument? Gay couples are  IMO NOT religious.. to seek marriage from an unwilling church flies in the face of their search for legality, and to say they would do so seems to me a 'worst case' scenario that makes no sense whatsoever.
Your lack of confidence in government is understandable however, as the current government seems to be firmly on course to allow the far right Members to dictate governance of our nation. A truly abhorrent thought. Brother Abbott still influences the thoughts and fears of the nation. Angry
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #520 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:27am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:19am:
I'm not saying Churches must marry gay couples.. there is nothing wrong with marriage celebrants and all the other methods of legal marriage. I don't see a problem for churches at all. What you suggest is exactly what that looney far right MP Christensen was saying earlier this morning.. can't you see the fallacy of the argument? Gay couples are  IMO NOT religious.. to seek marriage from an unwilling church flies in the face of their search for legality, and to say they would do so seems to me a 'worst case' scenario that makes no sense whatsoever.
Your lack of confidence in government is understandable however, as the current government seems to be firmly on course to allow the far right Members to dictate governance of our nation. A truly abhorrent thought. Brother Abbott still influences the thoughts and fears of the nation. Angry

So you've never heard of a gay Catholic? One sure way to remove the sting of hearing about the Sodomites and the Gomorrites is to criminalise it. Of course, that's just the opinion of one of those swine.
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« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2016 at 4:07pm by Mr Hammer »  
 
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #521 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:36am
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:27am:
Emma wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:19am:
I'm not saying Churches must marry gay couples.. there is nothing wrong with marriage celebrants and all the other methods of legal marriage. I don't see a problem for churches at all. What you suggest is exactly what that looney far right MP Christensen was saying earlier this morning.. can't you see the fallacy of the argument? Gay couples are  IMO NOT religious.. to seek marriage from an unwilling church flies in the face of their search for legality, and to say they would do so seems to me a 'worst case' scenario that makes no sense whatsoever.
Your lack of confidence in government is understandable however, as the current government seems to be firmly on course to allow the far right Members to dictate governance of our nation. A truly abhorrent thought. Brother Abbott still influences the thoughts and fears of the nation. Angry

So you've never heard of a gay Catholic? One sure way to remove the sting of hearing abot the Sodomites and the Gamorrites is to criminalise it. Of course, thats just the opinion of one of those swine.


Yes, they are called Priests.
Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:27am:
One sure way to remove the sting of hearing abot the Sodomites and the Gamorrites is to criminalise it

Are you trying to be ironic?  Grin
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #522 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:37am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:36am:
Yes, they are called Priests.



Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #523 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 10:08am
 
re Longweekend58

Quote:
Firstly, marriage has ALWAYS been essentially a religious institution and even now is still predominantly so. It is only in relatively recent times that it has even encompassed civil unions. It remains still for most a sacred trust.


In Australia, our law recognizes marriage from either a civil marriage or a religious marriage.    Religious institutions can be very restrictive in terms of marriage, if we just go by its definition.  For example, interfaith and inter-racial marriages.    In a secular state like Australia, if a Muslim wants to marry a Christian, or a Jewess wants to marry a pagan, then, its legal under the definitions of civil marriage.   To this end, same sex marriage its just extension of that.

Quote:
The second point is that 'it doesnt affect me' is perhaps the worst argument you can make. You can use that argument to support virtually any abomination from genocide, child marriages and detention without trial. You really need to make a substantive argument rather than that one.


The things that you have listed: genocide, child marriages are against the law.  However, same sex relationship between two consenting adults are perfectly legal.   So your second point does not stand.    Furthermore, my argument goes beyond just ‘it does not effect me’, its about been treated equally regardless of sexual orientation - one of the basic foundations of human right. 

Quote:
he third point is that you seem to ignore people's right to simply believe something is WRONG. You dont have to agree or even understand it, but to ignore it is quite wrong in its own right. Most opposition to gay marriage is based on morality and religious belief. These are not issues to simply ignore and treat  as immaterial.


As I mentioned before, there are many things - good or bad that religion believe.  To that extension, alot of religious people find marriage outside of their religion is immorall, and wrong.  Does that mean we should exclude those unions as well?    Alot of people believe children in detention is wrong, detention without a trial is wrong,   But yet, they still happen

Quote:
Legalising gay marriage actually gives gays absolutely nothing other than a title they currently do not have. In may ways it looks and sounds like a rant to have something they dont have for no other reason than that they dont have it. Essentially, a toddler rant.

It easy for you to say this is a toddler’s rant since your own marriage is recognized and accepted.  Same sex couples wants the same under the law.    Its like having your voting right.  Just one of you own is not going to make any difference, but its the principle that counts. 
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
Reply #524 - Sep 29th, 2016 at 10:21am
 
Emma wrote on Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:19am:
I'm not saying Churches must marry gay couples.. there is nothing wrong with marriage celebrants and all the other methods of legal marriage. I don't see a problem for churches at all. What you suggest is exactly what that looney far right MP Christensen was saying earlier this morning.. can't you see the fallacy of the argument? Gay couples are  IMO NOT religious.. to seek marriage from an unwilling church flies in the face of their search for legality, and to say they would do so seems to me a 'worst case' scenario that makes no sense whatsoever.
Your lack of confidence in government is understandable however, as the current government seems to be firmly on course to allow the far right Members to dictate governance of our nation. A truly abhorrent thought. Brother Abbott still influences the thoughts and fears of the nation. Angry


I didn't hear what Christensen said - but I do know that many people within churches aqree in favour of gay marriage.  I think their concern is over being compelled to perform gay marriages even when it goes against their conscience.

It's the same argument as abortion - Roe V Wade specifies that a woman should not be sanctioned for securing an abortion - it does not say every medical practitioner MUST perform an abortion on demand or that there is an absolute right to abortion on demand, though many wish to think it does.  If and when the State demands that medical practitioners perform abortions or suffer punishment, then there is a problem.

It's the same question here, and is one reason I've raised the suggestion of Gay Marriage as a separate installment of Marriage - Marital Apartheid - separate but equal.  Just a thought.  The Marriage Act and the Gay Marriage Act.  Nothing to prevent those involved having the same rights as Marriage etc, and perhaps such a middle path could keep both from each other's throats for five minutes.

(hmm - bit like being a New Australian there.... meant to remove the nasty tone of voice etc, but in the right mouth, 'New Australian' could take on a world of meaning)....
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