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Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats (Read 3992 times)
freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #75 - Sep 17th, 2016 at 12:48pm
 
Gandalf how far would you take this strange theory of yours that it is "adequate" for the media to report the relevant facts "at some point or other"?

If the media catches politicians breaking important promises (such as one that affects the outcome of elections when the promises took the form of repeated bipartisan senate resolutions), is it adequate for them to not ask the politicians any questions at all about these broken promises? Is it adequate for them to merely publish the justifications offered by the politicians concerned? Is it adequate for them to not include in their articles any information at all about the existence of those promises? Is it adequate for them to leave the reporting of such "contextualisations" to other journalists, to other media outlets, and to other times?

Why do you describe the reporting of relevant facts in the article in which they are relevant "spoonfeeding" and "confected outrage"? Is this not the job of journalists (leaving out for the moment the "hard questions" they ought to ask)?
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #76 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 7:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 17th, 2016 at 10:59am:
The information and links are still there Gandalf, along with plenty mroe that you insist is not.


No FD. If it helps, here's the article located on the home page:

Quote:
Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats

September 11 2016

There are thieves in the Senate. Scott Ryan, Liberal Senator for Victoria and Deborah O'Neill, Labor Senator for NSW will continue to hold their Senate seats after June 2019, while roughly half of their colleagues will face re-election. They will continue to serve from 2019 until 2022, at the expense of Derryn Hinch and Lee Rhiannon. Their seats were stolen on their behalf by the Labor Party and the Coalition. The two major parties have broken promises they made twice to the Australian public in order to secure these seats. These promises took the form of Senate resolutions on 22 June 2010 and 29 June 1998. Both resolutions passed with bipartisan support and stated that the Senate will use the new, fairer method to determine which senators get full (6 year) terms in the event of a double dissolution election. Had they kept this promise, senate thieves Scott Ryan and Deborah O'Neill would be facing re-election in 2019 and Hinch and Rhiannon would have the six year terms that the Australian public voted for. Unfortunately these resolutions are not binding and the Australian constitution permits the Senate to allocate the seats as it pleases, meaning Labor and the Coalition are not bound to keep their promise and can literally get away with anything.

In addition to these two promises, the Labor party passed the relevant legislation (again, non-binding) in 1984. After the 1987 double dissolution election, Coalition Senators voted in favour of using the new method to allocate senate seats, while the Labor party chose to keep the old method - again, because it gave them a bigger share of the seats. It was this 1987 disagreement that prompted the two major parties to pass the 1998 and 2010 resolutions to use the fairer method in the future. They no doubt had every intention of holding each other to this promise, up until the current situation arose in which both stood to benefit from sticking with the unfair method.

This coup has been permitted by a mainstream media that is asleep at the wheel. No major outlet reported on the Senate decision of August 31. They did report on Labor and the Coalition reaching an agreement to do this several weeks earlier. However, the reporting on this agreement simply quoted the insipid justifications given by the major parties and lacked any critical analysis or hard questions. Neither Labor nor the Coalition have been forced by the media to comment on the fact that they both broke promises that they made clearly and repeatedly to the Australian public. They have not been forced to even acknowledge that they made these promises. Neither party has been forced to acknowledge the transparent self-interest behind the decision. Instead, The ABC, The Australian, The Sydney Morning Herald etc all let the major parties get away with simply pointing out that their agreement was "in keeping with the constitution and precedent", as if the new legislation and the repeated promises to use it never happened. The media has been publishing these insipid justifications and excuses on behalf of the major parties, while leaving out relevant facts and failing in their duty to ask the important questions.

Please contact your federal MP and senators using the links below (scroll down to "please support democracy in the senate") and let them know that you intend to punish them at the next election if they do not give back the stolen senate seats. Please also write to your newspaper and let them know of your disapproval at their failure to report on this coup and your scepticism at their ability to do their job. Please also write to Senators Ryan and O'Neill and let them know that you consider them to be thieves in the Senate and that their ongoing presence after 2019 undermines the legitimacy of the Senate.

Discussion:

Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Ryan and O'Neill - senate thieves
Senators Ryan and O'Neill have been invited to respond to this article.


Point 1: as anyone can see who wants to read this, there is no explanation whatsoever of what the two senate term allocation methods are - brief or otherwise. You don't even name them.

Point 2: there are precisely two links in this article (under "Discussion"). As I said before they are simply a rehash of the same article. No further information is provided.
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #77 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 7:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 17th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Gandalf how far would you take this strange theory of yours that it is "adequate" for the media to report the relevant facts "at some point or other"?

If the media catches politicians breaking important promises (such as one that affects the outcome of elections when the promises took the form of repeated bipartisan senate resolutions), is it adequate for them to not ask the politicians any questions at all about these broken promises?


I think calling it a 'broken promise' is a stretch. The last resolution was made in 2010 and since then the senate has changed twice. How beholden is the current, new senate to this resolution? Its debatable in my book. And your histrionics like calling it "thieving" and such doesn't exactly bring much balance back to the story - especially when you don't even provide the most basic facts, and instead condescendingly expect everyone to join in on your outrage purely on your say-so.

Quote:
Is it adequate for them to merely publish the justifications offered by the politicians concerned? Is it adequate for them to not include in their articles any information at all about the existence of those promises? Is it adequate for them to leave the reporting of such "contextualisations" to other journalists, to other media outlets, and to other times?

Why do you describe the reporting of relevant facts in the article in which they are relevant "spoonfeeding" and "confected outrage"? Is this not the job of journalists (leaving out for the moment the "hard questions" they ought to ask)?


The most relevant point from the story is that they two major parties colluded in a grubby deal to "feather their own senate nests". That was widely reported, and the message came across loud and clear. The information you are demanding won't make this deal seem any more grubbier, and is essentially superfluous.
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #78 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 9:16pm
 
Quote:
I think calling it a 'broken promise' is a stretch. The last resolution was made in 2010 and since then the senate has changed twice. How beholden is the current, new senate to this resolution?


The same two parties are in power Gandalf. The same two parties that passed both bipartisan resolutions came to a bipartisan agreement to break those promises. It is not "the senate" that is lying. It is the parties, whose purpose is to maintain some consistency of policies.

This is however a very good question. Would you say that the media failed spectacularly to do their job when they did not ask this question, or anything like it, of the parties involved, or even of the senators who were around in 2010? Do you think the fundamental processes of our democracy should be changed according to the whims of the day? Do we need a different democracy with different rules 6 years after we last agreed on a set of rules? Do you think it is fair to change the vote counting rules after the people have cast their votes? Just how eager are you to defend broken promises and shoddy journalism?

Quote:
The most relevant point from the story is that they two major parties colluded in a grubby deal to "feather their own senate nests". That was widely reported, and the message came across loud and clear.


That's odd. Every article I read described it as being consistent with convention and left out the bit where they repeatedly promised to use the fairer method. They even used the word 'fair' many times. Do you think that is a fair assessment? Not one described the deal as grubby or feathery - how could it be grubby or feathery if they were simply following convention, being fair and there was no reason to expect them to act differently?
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #79 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 1:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 18th, 2016 at 9:16pm:
Not one described the deal as grubby or feathery


Yes they did. One article even used the word "feathered" in the title!

Every article I read on the deal quoted Derryn Hunch and/or a Green complaining how unfair it was - and yes, there was even mention of the fact that the "fairer" method had been agreed to before. Again, you seem to have missed this, along with just about everything else that was relevant to this story.

By the way, are you going to update the home page article to include the information you insisted was there but is not?
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #80 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 6:28pm
 
Quote:
Every article I read on the deal quoted Derryn Hunch and/or a Green complaining how unfair it was


So the losers thought it was unfair... Did the article give a good justification for why they might think it was unfair, such pointing out the Senate resolutions of 1998 and 2010? Every article I read quoted Labor and the Coalition saying it was fair and consistent with convention. Without reference to the resolutions, this makes Hinch and Rhiannon look like they are having a whinge.

Quote:
- and yes, there was even mention of the fact that the "fairer" method had been agreed to before.


Not in any of the articles I read that were written after the announcement.

Quote:
Again, you seem to have missed this, along with just about everything else that was relevant to this story.


I have asked you several times to post examples. Every example you have posted has contradicted the point you were trying to make. The first three links you gave were to articles that, like every other I have read, completely failed to mention the resolutions, and the next example you gave was written before the August 12 announcement. You are the only one missing something Gandalf.

It is lazy, incompetent journalism at best.

Quote:
By the way, are you going to update the home page article to include the information you insisted was there but is not?


You are confused Gandalf.
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longweekend58
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #81 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 7:03pm
 
Gandalf isnt confused. YOU are. This 'rage' you feel is supported by pretty much no one other than a couple of senators who missed out on 6 year terms because of an alternative arrangement that is arguably no fairer.  Are you seriously arguing that Hinch the pedo and Rhiannon the commo deserve any support? Even if this were a matter of principle - and it isnt - that would be a hard sell.

Last elected, first out. Sounds simple and pretty fair to me - and most other people too.
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freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #82 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 8:30pm
 
Are you suggesting that democracy is not a matter of principle?

What about keeping promises?

Quote:
This 'rage' you feel is supported by pretty much no one other than a couple of senators who missed out on 6 year terms because of an alternative arrangement that is arguably no fairer.


They did not miss out "because of an alternative arrangement". That does not even make sense. They missed out because Labor and the Coalition broke their promises.

If the alternative arrangement is "arguably no fairer", why did Labor and the Coalition support it on two separate occasions? Why did they go to the trouble of having Senate resolutions to declare their support for it?
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #83 - Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:13pm
 
A slightly disjointed nose over being exposed for misleading and misrepresentation, has become a full blown hysterical fit:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1474078271

Note the classy personal attacks about my completely irrelevant religious beliefs.
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #84 - Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 19th, 2016 at 6:28pm:
You are confused Gandalf.


Indeed I am. Confused as to why you would so stubbornly persist with the lie that you provided any links or information about the two resolutions in the OP article on the home page:

freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
You should start with the home page of this website. There is a link in the OP.



Try to comprehend this FD: there is *NO* link in the OP except to two threads rehashing the exact same article.

Confused also as to why someone would expect people to heed your calls to lobby MPs purely on your baseless advise that they chose the "unfair" method.

Confused also by the irony - the irony of railing against the media not being informative enough, and then attempting to "inform" the public by not even providing the most basic information yourself.
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #85 - Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:41pm
 
Quote:
- and yes, there was even mention of the fact that the "fairer" method had been agreed to before.


So you accidentally provided the wrong links eh Gandalf? And you can't be bothered providing the right ones? Should we just take your word for it?
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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gandalf
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #86 - Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:41pm:
Quote:
- and yes, there was even mention of the fact that the "fairer" method had been agreed to before.


So you accidentally provided the wrong links eh Gandalf? And you can't be bothered providing the right ones? Should we just take your word for it?


I thought you said you read the articles FD.


Quote:
“The Greens’ [Lee] Rhiannon is in the same boat in NSW,” he said.

Rhiannon called on Labor last week to abide by the “fairer” allocation method because it would prevent the Coalition boosting their Senate numbers at the next election.

“The main reason is that under a recount method [Justice party’s] Derryn Hinch wins a long-term Senate seat at the expense of a Liberal senator,” Rhiannon said.


“Section 282 is more democratic and the Senate has acknowledged that on previous occasions,” she said. “If the crossbenchers are interested in reducing the power of the major party duopoly then they would support the fairer recount method.”


Can you spot Rhiannon "mention[ing] the fact that the "fairer" method had been agreed to before."

I'll happily accept your apology for that, as well as your false claim that I linked the 3 articles to "prove" that the two senate resolutions had been reported on.

no hurry, do take your time...
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moses wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 6:22pm:
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freediver
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Re: Media asleep at the wheel on stolen senate seats
Reply #87 - Sep 20th, 2016 at 6:01pm
 
Quote:
Section 282 is more democratic and the Senate has acknowledged that on previous occasions,” she said.


Is that the only mention you have found in articles written after the August 12 announcement? It says nothing of agreement or of senate resolutions. It could equally be interpreted as a reference to the 1984 legislation.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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