Right, Agnostics; let's get them out of the way first. MAKE UP YOUR BLOODY MINDS!  . . . Buncha wimps . . .

Why is it that you Atheists allow yourselves to be defined by what you are not? How do you think your name came about? But anyway, that's another subject. What we all probably agree on, is that the Universe and Reality were made a long time ago; away back before the trade unions. So whether you believe in God , or not, you have to admit His way is the cheapest.

Same goes for morals. Why do you Godless hard-arses have to do every thing the difficult way? With God's morals, you don't have to think for yourself. But oh no. No one is going to tell you urban and urbane sophisticates what to think.

The wrongness of murder, theft, and lies, takes a whole lotta figuring out. Its not obvious and it strains the brain, but with God's morals . . . no problem. It's easy. It was all written down long ago, by people dumber than you. And if you don't like one set, its easy to find another. Belief in God, is a moral smorgasbord, and if you have a short attention span, most come with neat stories about sex and violence, just like on TV.

Actually, with God's morals you don't even have to change religions, if you have doubts. Just re-interpret, or cherry pick the one you've got. People have been doing it for a thousand years, without regret or nostalgia.

The truth of the matter is you Atheists, with all your philosophy and humanism, are just too stubborn and mentally lazy to get out of your own way. But don't listen to me,  I have tried to do you a favour, but there are none so blind as those who will not see.

"I guess we'll just have to live with our failings and go to hell."

I don't believe in heaven and hell, or the Devil, but my parents warned me about the Boogey-man! I ain't messin'with that dude!

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 24^th, 2016 at 1:24am:




I really do find it difficult sometimes to believe you work/worked in the tertiary sector. This is one of those times.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 4:02am:




Pretty much all of it, especially the sense that atheism is rebellion rather than a state of curiosity. My atheism came from reading and understanding and a sense that the religious stories I'd heard in my youth just had something missing in terms of facts.

Those who tell you that they have information about the nature of reality which is not obviously available to all people at all times, is not trying to convince you. They are trying to convince themselves.

Atheism & Beyond Presents..

Proving That Nobody Can Get Into Heaven.

Yadda wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 10:42pm:


In your opinion, there you go. Don't rely on your opinion. You don't have to rely on mine either but it is the opposite. You can ask why I hold that opinion but you will never accept it as, as Issue pointed out, you need to keep yourself from backsliding by reinforcing what you believe by pushing it at others as the only way.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 10:59pm:


He got one thing wrong Bobby, it's easy to find a witch! Religious people know how.

Yadda wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 10:42pm:




I find this a wiggle statement, e.g. if I've said I've read it, yet am still an atheist, I must not have understood it.

Thanks all, for contributing to this thread, especially Bobby, for the videos. I have to admit I only watched the first one, because Atheists get a bit tedious at times. I am not one of them. I'd rather tell people what I believe, than what I don't believe.

When it comes to Jesus, as the video did, I have to say the numbers involved in converting the Romans, seem to indicate that Jesus did preach in Palestine. But if anyone wants to convert me to Christianity, they are going to have to drop the idea that he was conceived by some other method than me. You'd have to be extremely gullible to fall for that line, even if Joseph did.

But Joseph was probably a decent old chap who just wanted to protect Mary's reputation. That, I can believe, when I look at the way Middle Eastern tribes view female sexuality today. Actually, I don't believe that, and I just broke my first rule.

I suspect that Jesus was a familiar type of neurotic; the type that fixates on the themes of religion which charismatic cult leaders use to great effect. His were pagan times. He was surrounded by all kinds of beliefs. I also suspect that Jesus's disciples, who were much like him, put together or encouraged the stories of virgin birth, and his rising from the dead. Their choice was predictable in some ways, because people had been expecting a kind of Lone Ranger for some time.

The pagan religions had an endless supply of gimmicks and entertaining stories. So the disciples had to out-do them. An Abrahamic gimmick was the one all encompassing cosmic idea. That has a strong appeal to human logic, even if it requires believing in ghosts. It probably came about by an evolutionary process.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 8:49am:


Agreed.

The bible is a collections of stories written by various authors, who often contradict one another.

A god who is the same now as he was at the beginning of time would surely have made certain that his word was not open to interpretation.

After Raven's parents died he was raised in a cult. Every week on the day of the Sun God Ra he had to kneel before an ancient device of torture and ritualistically consume symbolic flesh and blood.

Once Raven reached adulthood he questioned the core beliefs of this old cult and decided that it no longer appealed to him. This was done after years of reflection and study of their ancient texts.

issuevoter wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 1:15pm:



I read somewhere that there's a religious part of our brains that
has given us an evolutionary advantage.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 8:52pm:


just google

religious part of our brains that has given us an evolutionary advantage

& you'll get 8 million hits.

issuevoter wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 5:25pm:



Oh yeah.       

"Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"


Genesis 18:9
And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10  And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11  Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13  And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14  Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.


Genesis 21:1
And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2  For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
3  And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.



"Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"

Of course it is!

God can't do supernatural things!

Only mankind can invent things like wifi devices.

God ?

Nope.



2 Timothy 3:4
.....lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



.



Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14  Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.




Mankind are so, so, clever,         .....today, in this modern age.

And yet, the whole world today is in turmoil and consumed in human conflict.

[....its coz men are so, so, clever!!  ]

Setanta wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 10:16pm:





Setanta,

You should have been a member of the crew of script writers for

The life of Brian

!!!

You would have fitted in so well.

Setanta wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 11:12pm:



Setanta,

It is widely recognised as a work of fiction.         ......

The life of Brian

Yadda wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 11:51pm:



see, he could have written the bible after all.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 8:51am:


You're proving one of my points. Do you think off-topic attempts at ad hominem make your atheism more legitimate or superior?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 7:53am:


That is not the sort of suggestion I associate with Christian comment.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 7:53am:


is that what you teach at uni Misty? You must have a doctorate in strap on.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 24^th, 2016 at 1:24am:


All roads lead to rational conclusions?

So far in this thread the comments have been loaded with very un-Christian insults and invective against the unGodly. Some might say that's ironic and in contradiction of Christian values. There's an angry petulance there that needs only be ramped up a little to start a stoning of the apostates.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 8:41am:




My own escape from the constraints of having to live the rest of my life in a religious strait-jacket began at puberty when I discovered at Boarding School that the only True God lay in my left hand under the blankets with a torch and a page torn out of the latest girly magazine circulating amongst us boys. 

That's when I realised that Life's True Purpose was to spread ones seed as far and wide as the law will allow - and the Devil take the hindmost.  

issuevoter wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:


Needless to say, absolutely everybody on Planet Earth is an agnostic in the sense of 'not knowing', or being 'without knowledge' of a Supreme Being who created the universe. No matter how much they may protest to the contrary, there are no exceptions to this. The Pope knows no more about the existence of a god than does a new-born babe.

Stephen Hawking knows no more about the existence of a god than does a piece of rock.

 

Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 2:28pm:


It is a conundrum. Because atheists, agnostics, and those who “believe” in God, are claiming they know what the other means. Given that concepts like the eternal, the infinite, state of grace, spirit, and enlightenment are all acknowledged as beyond the realm of human language, you have to ask yourself, WTF are they all talking about. I see the jaws flapping, and I hear a lot of noise, but that's about it. Let's not kid ourselves that we can read each others minds, especially on subjects having no words. A lot of people would read what I have written in this thread and not be able to make sense out of it. I would not blame them either. Unlike the cosmic know-alls, I don't expect people to interpret what I say in my terms, just plain English. A person can tell you they believe in God, but that does not mean they see what you see as God.

I often get these: “Yes, but what happens after the end of time.” Or “What created the Universe.” I usually say, “Don't ask me,” but what I am really thinking is, that question is not a complete idea. Making something and ending something are human concepts of phenomena within the Universe. If you wish to redefine the Universe, be my guest. Humans do come up with half-baked ideas all the time. Even science boffins do it, as the idea of multiple Universes shows. If we are going to discover aspects of reality that are outside what we know, they will still be part of the UNIVERSE. UNI in this case means The One, do the math. It cannot be divided into three halves or run parallel to another The One. It is The One, but only if you wish to believe it.

And while I am at it, can anyone explain why Yadda's pious old bastards didn't put any funny bits in ancient scripture? Some comic relief in the Bible would have gone a long way to making it more believable.

Three wise guys walk into a bar,
"Where'd you get the kid, Sister?"
"God gave him to me."

Its not funny anymore, but it was 2,016 years ago.

Yadda wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 3:55pm:


I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, Yadda, but don't let me or anyone else dissuade you from your religious convictions.

For some people religion is an art form to be enjoyed and indulged in as a recreational relief from the tedium of real life, but then for others it's a tonic and a therapy that has real value in filling what might otherwise be a cruel void in ones life.

I would never try to denigrate someone for believing in a kind and merciful god.   

"There are no atheists in fox-holes" ~ and I'm fairly certain if I had been in one of the trenches at Passchendaele where my cousin was killed, I too would have been huddled down in a watery ditch, gibbering to God to save my sorry-arse.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 7:52am:




And yet your comment about rebellion wasn't ad hominem?

[quote


It is a conundrum. Because atheists, agnostics, and those who “believe” in God, are claiming they know what the other means. Given that concepts like the eternal, the infinite, state of grace, spirit, and enlightenment are all acknowledged as beyond the realm of human language, you have to ask yourself, WTF are they all talking about. I see the jaws flapping, and I hear a lot of noise, but that's about it. Let's not kid ourselves that we can read each others minds, especially on subjects having no words. A lot of people would read what I have written in this thread and not be able to make sense out of it. I would not blame them either. Unlike the cosmic know-alls, I don't expect people to interpret what I say in my terms, just plain English. A person can tell you they believe in God, but that does not mean they see what you see as God.

I often get these: “Yes, but what happens after the end of time.” Or “What created the Universe.” I usually say, “Don't ask me,” but what I am really thinking is, that question is not a complete idea. Making something and ending something are human concepts of phenomena within the Universe. If you wish to redefine the Universe, be my guest. Humans do come up with half-baked ideas all the time. Even science boffins do it, as the idea of multiple Universes shows. If we are going to discover aspects of reality that are outside what we know, they will still be part of the UNIVERSE. UNI in this case means The One, do the math. It cannot be divided into three halves or run parallel to another The One. It is The One, but only if you wish to believe it.

And while I am at it, can anyone explain why Yadda's pious old bastards didn't put any funny bits in ancient scripture? Some comic relief in the Bible would have gone a long way to making it more believable.

Three wise guys walk into a bar,
"Where'd you get the kid, Sister?"
"God gave him to me."

Its not funny anymore, but it was 2,016 years ago.
[/quote]


There's a piece of luck, haven't looked in here for 4 years and find a gem first off!
(Hope I haven't stuffed up that quoting thing, out of practice on this format.)

That post from Issuevoter is the most sensible comment about atheism I've seen in far too long.

I've trawled the Skeptic forums and given up as they're are riddled with people who think they are atheists because they can't define the difference between that and anti-theism.

I was born atheist I think, don't remember ever believing in gods as such, sussed Santa out at around 4 and grew up under the impression that all fairy tales were written solely for their entertainment value and that their characters were fictional. 

I heard about God and Jesus and Cinderella and Santa and that damned Boogeyman, the whole thing!   I had no idea that some were supposed to be 'real' !

Even knew about different religions, but they simply had no place in our family.

We weren't atheists, that thought never crossed our minds to my knowledge, we simply weren't interested in religion.  It wasn't of any concern either way. 

No one went to church on either side of the family except for weddings and funerals so religion played no part in our daily lives.  We didn't NEED religion. 

Oddly enough, none of us ever went to jail, we did charity work, we lived moral lives, and ethics was a highly respected system of rule making. We were nothing out of the ordinary,  the quintessential working family of 1950s suburbia.   We simply didn't need supernatural supervision to live useful and 'good' lives.

We didn't claim to be atheists, most of us probably weren't, the issue of our beliefs simply held no importance to us.  Religion rated about the same gravitas as a subject as the weather.
It was just something that other people got excited about. 
We found it a mildly amusing social thing that people did to be polite or something.  It wasn't life and death, not back then anyway. 

I get longwinded so I'll shorten this up.
To me atheists are simply people who don't need to complicate life with the supernatural.
Those who do have hang-ups with it are anti-theists, or theists depending on their for or against stance.
What most anti-theists seem to overlook is that to go into battle against something they profess not to believe in kind of defeats their purpose, and their argument.

Sure, fight the religion industry and the scammers who run it, by all means.  But fighting with it's victims is a bit harsh.

I have no problem with people who (passively) believe in gods,  or even pixies, if it comforts them then why would I object to that?

The operative word for me in these arguments is "need".  They need to believe in it, and I don't.  Why would I want to take something from them that I don't want??


I think I must have had a very lucky upbringing after hearing the arguments from the many who've been traumatised by crushing insights into the religions they'd built their own personal 'universes' around. 
Having no need of a supernatural hook to hang the wonders of the universe upon has a lot going for it.   'God' seems to have disappointed many, but the universe doesn't give a proverbial either way.  And that's just the way I like it. 

Dnarever wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 9:48am:


It's also a non-prophet organisation

issuevoter wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:



Raven has always been of the opinion that it is better to have an idea then a belief. You can change an idea, changing a belief is harder. People die for it people kill for it. Belief drives people to fly planes into buildings, makes everyday people blow up abortion clinics and encourages parents to mutilate the genitals of their sons and daughters.

But if you do have belief then question everything because if what you hold as true stands up then you are stronger for it.

If it doesn't stand up to the questions then you are better off devoting your time to more worthwhile things.

Doomsday comes around and it turns out God exists. Holy smoke! We are in deep do-do now!
St Peter is out there with his shepard's crook seperating the faithful from the crowd. Not that there is many of them. In Revelation, God already said he is only going to redeem a measelly 144,000!

I hear a lot of nashing of teeth and wailing as people dropping on their knees. But it looks like the Jews and Muzlims and Christians got it right after all, but its a pretty small group who actually believed. Funny, I don't see any clergy.

And then there is the rest of us sorry lot, and we're as pissed off as Republicans after the referendum.  A Buddhist says, “See, I told you it was all meaningless.” Mel Brooks wants to talk to Moses about remaking the Ten Commandments. A stoned Rasta still think he and Haili Salase are going to Heaven. But the Atheists step forward and start shaking their fists at St Peter, “Not so fast Pete, we want to know why!”

But St Peter silences them, “None of your God Damn business!”

In the back of the crowd a couple of Agnostics are whispering, “I knew it! I knew it! And all of those wasted lottery tickets!”

Abraham is commending his little band of Jews, Muzlims and Christians, and they all chorus in with “We told you so,” and point at us. And then I hear their sing song taunt.

“You're gunna burn in Hell . . . Nah Nana Nah Nah!”

But there is an Almighty clap as God's two hands come together squashing everything he has ever created, into a blob of clay. And when it is totally silent, he lobs the ball out into the middle of nothingness, and sits back on his throne. Scratching his chin he muses, “Well . . . If first you don't succeed, try, try, again.”

Forget Jesus - the stars died so you could be here today:

13:16

Parannoyed wrote on Aug 29^th, 2016 at 1:58pm:



So what banned member were you? Or are you hiding something from other posters?

I don't know what circles you move in, CW, but I have met many intelligent people who subscribe to one of the self-imposed trinity, Atheist, Agnostic, God worshiper.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-01/worlds-oldest-fossils-in-3.7-billion-year-...

The oldest fossils known to date have been discovered in 3.7 billion-year-old rocks in Greenland by an Australian-led team of researchers.

Key points

Evidence of ancient bacterial communities known as stromatolites uncovered in rocks in Greenland
Dating of rock above and below stromatolites places them between 3.7 and 3.68 billion years old
Analysis pushes back earliest known evidence of life on Earth by 220 million years
The discovery of the fossilised bacterial communities, known as stromatolites, could be the first clear biological evidence of the earliest known life on Earth, according to a paper published today in Nature.

Before this find, the earliest accepted evidence for life were 3.48 billion-year-old fossil stromatolites from the Pilbara region in Western Australia.

Lead author Professor Allen Nutman of the University of Wollongong has been investigating ancient rock formations in the Isua Supercrustal Belt in south-west Greenland for more than 30 years.

The rocks were known to contain a unique carbon signature, but until now, it was unclear whether the signature had been created by ancient life forms or changes in the rock caused by heat and pressure.

Twelve of the oldest fossils we've discovered so far



Fossils are the hard evidence behind our picture of life on Earth. Here are a dozen of the oldest-known fossils we've discovered in the last 20 years.
During one of their visits to the area four years ago, the team found a new outcrop had been exposed by increased melting of the summer snow.

"There were some new outcrops that, as far as I can see from historical aerial photographs, have not been exposed in at least the last 40 years or so," said Professor Nutman.

Those rocks bore unusual features that the group instantly recognised.

"We could see this very diagnostic layering where one side of the layering was completely flat and then rising out of that, we had this irregular distribution of bumps or hummocks along it," Professor Nutman said.

Within those bumps and hummocks, they could also see the fine layering that is distinctive of stromatolites, where calcified layers are gradually built up by bacteria over hundreds and even thousands of years.

Analysis of rock layers pins down date

Two fossil researchers holding the stromatolites
PHOTO: Allen Nutman (left) and Vickie Bennet (right) with a specimen of 3.7-billion-year-old stromatolites from Isua, Greenland. (Supplied: Yuri Amelin)
The team used sophisticated techniques to carefully date the layers of rocks above and below the fossils.

The analysis placed the stromatolites between 3.71 and 3.695 billion years of age.

"So we've really pinned it down," Professor Nutman said.

Evidence from the "molecular clock" — the mutation rate of genetic material — has long suggested that life first emerged on Earth around 4 billion years ago.

As the product of bacterial communities, stromatolites suggest some degree of sophistication already existed at 3.7 billion years ago, Professor Nutman said.

The discovery could also help guide the search for evidence of past life on Mars, he added.

"At that particular time on Mars, there was still water on the surface, so if life has taken this path already on Earth by 3.7 billion years ago, it does increase the possibility of finding evidence of life on Mars."
Scientists will be 'queuing up'

Commenting on the finding, biogeochemist Dr David Wacey, Future Fellow at the University of Western Australia, said the find would undoubtedly have paleobiologists "queuing up waiting for more snow to melt and reveal additional new outcrops in this region".

Dr Wacey said the discovery was exciting, but not necessarily surprising, given that microfossils and stromatolite fossils dated to around 3.48 billion years ago had previously been found.

"This shows that life had attained a certain degree of complexity at this point so it follows that some considerable amount of time had probably passed since the origin of life itself," he said.
Dr Wacey stressed that the Isua fossils would need to undergo the same rigorous scrutiny as previous ancient microbial fossils had been before this could be considered 100 per cent proof of life 3.7 billion years ago. But at this stage, he said, there were no other competitors for "world's oldest fossil".

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 1^st, 2016 at 8:40am:


İn regards to what?

Quote:
http://creation.com/review-whats-so-great-about-christianity-dsouza



Question;

Why would those who say that they worship tolerance, seek such a position ?

And your argument is, that atheists do not seek such a position, and that atheists are [the most] reasonable of all people ?            [.....haha.   it is to laugh]

Yadda wrote on Sep 17^th, 2016 at 9:56am:


Why do you behave like a martyr?

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2017 at 3:00pm:


Yeah, great. I don't care whether people believe in what they dream up, or not. Just explain W T F you mean by God. You expect people to know what you are talking about?

Vote for God, he'll make the world great again!

Issue, Amadd

There is not much of a discussion to be had if you want a definition of god. God has been discussed by people for millennia and if you want m to give you a definition of the god that they have all been talking about all these thousands of years then I have to tell you that I can't give you such a definition.

But I can tell you with absolute certainty that god has been on the minds of people for a very long time.

If you now want to get on some imaginary 'scientific, intellectual' high horse and dismiss out of hand everyone who has gone before you because they have not come up with a definition that will make you think then nothing will make you think.

What are the parameters of the definition of god that you are prepared to accept? Scientific (ie materialist)? Well, expecting such a materialist definition of the idea of god shows then you are unprepared for answers to your own questions.

There is NO materialist definition of god because god is not a materialist idea. Will you accept any non-materialist definitions as valid or will you fault all of them for not being materialist?

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:


What are you talking about? Further; I cannot be an atheist if I don't know what it is is I am not supposed to believe in.

Raven wrote on Jan 18^th, 2017 at 1:26am:




OK.

I am not asking for a definition of the word God. If that cannot be done, its fine with me. At the risk of repetition, I am not an atheist, but don't expect me to believe in something that cannot be explained, or that believers will not event take a stab at. In this way G,O,D, can be exchanged for X,Y, Z.

Frank wrote on Jan 19^th, 2017 at 7:37pm:


How do you know what they have experienced?

"In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with the verb."

Christianity was not built on that concept.

Yadda wrote on Jan 20^th, 2017 at 1:54pm:


Wernickes aphasia.

Yadda wrote on Sep 17^th, 2016 at 9:56am:


Satan gave humans critical thinking, something god didn't want us to have. He didn't want us to eat from the tree of knowledge so we could be thought slaves for eternity. Satan did us a favour there by turning the tables with one conversation.

Also satan killed a grand total of ten people in the bible. God has killed millions.

He understands human nature but doesn't judge you for being human.