Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Please support democracy in the Senate (Read 3319 times)
John Smith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 56341
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #15 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am
 
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem
Back to top
 

REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
IP Logged
 
cods
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 60778
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #16 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:01am
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am:
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem



this is tough but I dont care what you think
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
John Smith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 56341
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #17 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:02am
 
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:01am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am:
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem



this is tough but I dont care what you think


Lying to others is bad enough but you really shouldn't lie to yourself

of course you care ... that's why you reply to every single comment
Back to top
 

REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14099
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #18 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:27am
 
Aussie wrote on Aug 15th, 2016 at 10:53pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 15th, 2016 at 10:32pm:
Cods it has nothing to do with left and right. I did not bring it up before the election because before the election, both Labor and Liberal were promising to do the right thing and use the new, fairer method that they had been promising to use for the last 20 years. After the election, both Labor and Liberal decided to hand themselves more senate seats by breaking their promise to do the right thing.


And according to Bam, the difference in outcome either way, is minuscule.

I'm basing my earlier analysis on some that appeared on Pollbludger that may have been incomplete. What is known is that the order of election method gives two major party Senators - a Victorian Liberal and a NSW Labor - a long term at the expense of Hinch and Rhiannon (Greens). I haven't yet seen complete detailed analysis.

What is clear though is that the Coalition are favouring the order of election method because it gives them a disproportionate number of long term Senate places (16/28) and the ALP favour it because it marginalises the Greens by forcing Greens back to the polls in 3 years in all six states.

I agree with freediver - the s282 method is fairer.

It's worth noting though that if the analysis is correct and complete (I don't know if it is), the difference is not large.

Under both methods, most of crossbenchers would be forced back to the polls in three years - three One Nation, Leyonhjelm (LDP), Bob Day (FFP), one NXT, five out of six Greens. The order of election adds two to this number - Hinch and Rhiannon (Greens).

The only crossbenchers who would get six-year terms under both methods are three Greens (Vic, WA, Tas), Hanson (ONP, Qld), two NXT (SA) and Lambie (Tas).

Order of election - crossbench: 7-13.
S.282 Recount - crossbench: 9-11.

IMO, this is why the major parties are going with the order of election method. They hope to gain seats from the crossbenchers in 2019.
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
cods
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 60778
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #19 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:31am
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:02am:
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:01am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am:
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem



this is tough but I dont care what you think


Lying to others is bad enough but you really shouldn't lie to yourself

of course you care ... that's why you reply to every single comment



no I dont... your like a bad smell I just cant get rid of you......thats all...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
John Smith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 56341
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #20 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:36am
 
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:31am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:02am:
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:01am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am:
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem



this is tough but I dont care what you think


Lying to others is bad enough but you really shouldn't lie to yourself

of course you care ... that's why you reply to every single comment



no I dont... your like a bad smell I just cant get rid of you......thats all...


see, I told you that you cared. You had every opportunity to 'not care' but you went and proved yourself wrong instead. Grin Grin
Back to top
 

REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
IP Logged
 
cods
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 60778
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:36am
 
Bam wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:27am:
Aussie wrote on Aug 15th, 2016 at 10:53pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 15th, 2016 at 10:32pm:
Cods it has nothing to do with left and right. I did not bring it up before the election because before the election, both Labor and Liberal were promising to do the right thing and use the new, fairer method that they had been promising to use for the last 20 years. After the election, both Labor and Liberal decided to hand themselves more senate seats by breaking their promise to do the right thing.


And according to Bam, the difference in outcome either way, is minuscule.

I'm basing my earlier analysis on some that appeared on Pollbludger that may have been incomplete. What is known is that the order of election method gives two major party Senators - a Victorian Liberal and a NSW Labor - a long term at the expense of Hinch and Rhiannon (Greens). I haven't yet seen complete detailed analysis.

What is clear though is that the Coalition are favouring the order of election method because it gives them a disproportionate number of long term Senate places (16/28) and the ALP favour it because it marginalises the Greens by forcing Greens back to the polls in 3 years in all six states.

I agree with freediver - the s282 method is fairer.

It's worth noting though that if the analysis is correct and complete (I don't know if it is), the difference is not large.

Under both methods, most of crossbenchers would be forced back to the polls in three years - three One Nation, Leyonhjelm (LDP), Bob Day (FFP), one NXT, five out of six Greens. The order of election adds two to this number - Hinch and Rhiannon (Greens).

The only crossbenchers who would get six-year terms under both methods are three Greens (Vic, WA, Tas), Hanson (ONP, Qld), two NXT (SA) and Lambie (Tas).

Order of election - crossbench: 7-13.
S.282 Recount - crossbench: 9-11.

IMO, this is why the major parties are going with the order of election method. They hope to gain seats from the crossbenchers in 2019.



I wish I understood that.....blimey its complex.. why dont we have the lot go to the polls every 3 years???.. if as you say the major parties can influence the outcome.. wouldnt that stop it?..

although you are lucky you understand what happens to your senate vote.. I dont and I can only guess I am not alone...so we go and elect anything...

you know there is a lot of interest in politics on forums like this... but not everyone is interested its just a chore to them
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
cods
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 60778
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:37am
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:36am:
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 9:31am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:02am:
cods wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 8:01am:
John Smith wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 7:58am:
you're not claiming an opinion, you're claiming a fact. You said it hasn't worked when it has worked exactly as intended. FACT.

That you don't like how it works is your problem



this is tough but I dont care what you think


Lying to others is bad enough but you really shouldn't lie to yourself

of course you care ... that's why you reply to every single comment



no I dont... your like a bad smell I just cant get rid of you......thats all...


see, I told you that you cared. You had every opportunity to 'not care' but you went and proved yourself wrong instead. Grin Grin



whew... ok you win.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Hoss
Senior Member
****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 480
talbot victoria
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #23 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 10:36am
 
HI ALL

The current situation is ?
The same old Smelly-creek in a barbwire canoe. The only problem is Turdballs has lost the paddle. Cool Cool

We need a good cleaner
Back to top
 

Old n get radicalized by government
 
IP Logged
 
Swagman
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Beware of cheap imitations......

Posts: 14680
Illawarra NSW
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #24 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 2:32pm
 
The Senate needs to be representative.

Currently Tasmanian Senators have 14 times the representative voting power of a NSW Senators.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 36612
I like fish
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #25 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 6:48pm
 
Quote:
And according to Bam, the difference in outcome either way, is minuscule.


According to Bam, the difference was the outcome of the Senate election. In what sense is that miniscule Aussie?

Quote:
what changes did they promise and what changes did they make


They promised to use the recount method instead of the order of election method. See the OP in the link I gave in the OP of this thread.

Quote:
and what if anything would be the difference


It is hard to tell without actually doing the recount method, but most likely it will affect which senators get 3 vs 6 year terms.

Quote:
you are annoyed they didnt make the changes they promised 20 years ago... what were they how do they differ to what did change???>..


Changes that they have been repeatedly promising for 20 years. It was an agreement to do something specific in the event of a double dissolution election, not something they promised 20 years ago and then forgot about.

Quote:
the senate hasnt functioned for Australia for years....it appears to me just a clone of the Reps...now with a few self interested people who all have a degree in selfhelp... and you want people to complain ....hahaha


It has been working as a house of review. Fundamentally, it is a check on power of the PM and lower house.

Quote:
I wish I understood that.....blimey its complex.. why dont we have the lot go to the polls every 3 years???.. if as you say the major parties can influence the outcome.. wouldnt that stop it?..


To put it simply, the senators themselves decide, as a group (by majority vote), who loses their seat in 3 years time. They agreed to do it fairly and repeatedly affirmed this promise. But when it came to the crunch, they acted out of self interest.
Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
The_Barnacle
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2619
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #26 - Aug 16th, 2016 at 10:10pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 16th, 2016 at 2:32pm:
The Senate needs to be representative.

Currently Tasmanian Senators have 14 times the representative voting power of a NSW Senators.



Thats easily fixed
Abolish the States
Back to top
 

The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 36612
I like fish
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #27 - Aug 18th, 2016 at 7:39pm
 
The senate is likely to vote on this when it first sits on August 30. Please make sure you let them know your disapproval before then.

The outcome of both methods will be made available by the AEC before the senate votes.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2016 at 7:49pm by freediver »  

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 36612
I like fish
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #28 - Sep 2nd, 2016 at 7:19pm
 
I thought they were going to vote on this on August 18, but there is nothing in the media.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/coalition-and-labor-team-up-to-clear-out-crossbench-senators-in-2019-20160812-gqr29k.html

The Australian Electoral Commission has also provided advice, seen by Fairfax Media, regarding which senators would receive six-year terms using the alternative "recount" method - who would have been elected if it had been a half-Senate election.

Using this method - set out as a possible way forward under section 282 of the Electoral Act - Senator Hinch would have been elected at the expense of Liberal Scott Ryan in Victoria, and Senator Rhiannon would have beaten out Labor's Deborah O'Neill in NSW.

The top six for the other four states would be the same whichever method was used.

In a letter to Clerk of the Senate, Rosemary Laing, dated August 11, electoral commissioner Tom Rogers notes the Senate is not bound to follow the section 282 recount.

Senator Di Natale said the Greens support the recount method as "the fairer of the two" and "regardless of the outcome" for the party.

"The Labor and Liberal parties will stop at nothing to shut out everyone else from their cosy duopoly. Here they are again, voting together, to stop diverse voices in Parliament," he said, observing that both parties had previously advocated for the recount proposal.
Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 30289
Gender: male
Re: Please support democracy in the Senate
Reply #29 - Sep 2nd, 2016 at 7:29pm
 
This Ship has sailed, freediver.
Back to top
 

And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print