https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba

Sūrat at-Tawbah (Arabic: سورة التوبة‎‎, "The Repentance"), also known as al-Barā'ah ("The Repudiation"),[1] is the ninth chapter of the Qur'an. It contains 129 verses and is one of the last Madinan chapters.

http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah9.html

9. Surah At-Taubah (The Repentance)

1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.

2. So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

7. How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

8. How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

9. They have purchased with the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah a little gain, and they hindered men from His Way; evil indeed is that which they used to do.

10. With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then

fight

(you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

13. Will you not

fight

a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

14.

Fight

against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,

15. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

16. Do you think that you shall be left alone while Allah has not yet tested those among you who have striven hard and

fought

and have not taken Walijah [(Batanah - helpers, advisors and consultants from disbelievers, pagans, etc.) giving openly to them their secrets] besides Allah and His Messenger, and the believers. Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

17. It is not for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.

35. On the Day when that (Al-Kanz: money, gold and silver, etc., the Zakat of which has not been paid) will be heated in the Fire of Hell and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, (and it will be said unto them):-"This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard."

36. Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, (i.e. the 1st, the 7th, the 11th and the 12th months of the Islamic calendar). That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and

fight

against the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) collectively, as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allah is with those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

37. The postponing (of a Sacred Month) is indeed an addition to disbelief: thereby the disbelievers are led astray, for they make it lawful one year and forbid it another year in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah, and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their deeds seems pleasing to them. And Allah guides not the people, who disbelieve.

38. O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to

march

forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad) you cling heavily to the earth? Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter.

39. If you

march

not forth, He will punish you with a painful torment and will replace you by another people, and you cannot harm Him at all, and Allah is Able to do all things.

40. If you help him (Muhammad ) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they (Muhammad  and Abu Bakr ) were in the cave, and he () said to his companion (Abu Bakr ): "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His Sakinah (calmness, tranquillity, peace, etc.) upon him, and strengthened him with forces (angels) which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

41.

March

forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive hard with your wealth and your

lives

in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you, if you but knew.

42. Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have come forth with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars.

43. May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad ). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on

Jihad

), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?

44. Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day would not ask your leave to be exempted from

fighting

with their properties and their lives, and Allah is the All-Knower of Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

45. It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from

Jihad

). So in their doubts they waver.

46. And if they had intended to

march

out, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind, and it was said (to them), "Sit you among those who sit (at home)."

47. Had they

marched

out with you, they would have added to you nothing except disorder, and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you, and there are some among you who would have listened to them. And Allah is the All-Knower of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.).

48. Verily, they had plotted sedition before, and had upset matters for you, - until the truth (

victory

) came and the Decree of Allah (His Religion, Islam) became manifest though they hated it.

49. And among them is he who says:"Grant me leave (to be exempted from

Jihad

) and put me not into trial." Surely, they have fallen into trial. And verily, Hell is surrounding the disbelievers.

50. If good befalls you (O Muhammad ), it grieves them, but if a calamity overtakes you, they say: "We took our precaution beforehand," and they turn away rejoicing.

70. Has not the story reached them of those before them? - The people of Nuh (Noah), 'Ad, and Thamud, the people of Ibrahim (Abraham), the dwellers of Madyan (Midian) and the cities overthrown [i.e. the people to whom Lout (Lot) preached], to them came their Messengers with clear proofs. So it was not Allah Who wronged them, but they used to wrong themselves.

71. The believers, men and women, are Auliya' (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another, they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); they perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give the Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

72. Allah has promised to the believers -men and women, - Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of 'Adn (Eden Paradise). But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah. That is the supreme success.

73. O Prophet (Muhammad )! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, - and worst indeed is that destination.

74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (bad), but really they said the word of disbelief, and they disbelieved after accepting Islam, and they resolved that (plot to murder Prophet Muhammad ) which they were unable to carry out, and they could not find any cause to do so except that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His Bounty. If then they repent, it will be better for them, but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful torment in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. And there is none for them on earth as a Wali (supporter, protector) or a helper.

75. And of them are some who made a covenant with Allah (saying): "If He bestowed on us of His Bounty, we will verily, give Sadaqah (Zakat and voluntary charity in Allah's Cause) and will be certainly among those who are righteous."

76. Then when He gave them of His Bounty, they became niggardly [refused to pay the Sadaqah (Zakat or voluntary charity)], and turned away, averse.

77. So He punished them by putting hypocrisy into their hearts till the Day whereon they shall meet Him, because they broke that (covenant with Allah) which they had promised Him and because they used to tell lies.

78. Know they not that Allah knows their secret ideas, and their Najwa (secret counsels), and that Allah is the All-Knower of the unseen.

79. Those who defame such of the believers who give charity (in Allah's Cause) voluntarily, and those who could not find to give charity (in Allah's Cause) except what is available to them, so they mock at them (believers), Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and they shall have a painful torment.

80. Whether you (O Muhammad ) ask forgiveness for them (hypocrites) or ask not forgiveness for them ... (and even) if you ask seventy times for their forgiveness ... Allah will not forgive them, because they have disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ). And Allah guides not those people who are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

81. Those who stayed away (from Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their staying behind the Messenger of Allah; they hated to strive and

fight

with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah, and they said: "

March

not forth in the heat." Say: "The Fire of Hell is more intense in heat", if only they could understand!

82. So let them laugh a little and (they will) cry much as a recompense of what they used to earn (by committing sins).

83. If Allah brings you back to a party of them (the hypocrites), and they ask your permission to go out (to

fight

), say: "Never shall you go out with me, nor

fight

an enemy with me; you agreed to sit inactive on the first occasion, then you sit (now) with those who lag behind."

84. And never (O Muhammad ) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who

dies

, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and

died

while they were Fasiqun (rebellious, - disobedient to Allah and His Messenger ).

85. And let not their wealth or their children amaze you. Allah's Plan is to punish them with these things in this world, and that their souls shall depart (die) while they are disbelievers.

86. And when a Surah (chapter from the Qur'an) is revealed, enjoining them to believe in Allah and to strive hard and

fight

along with His Messenger, the wealthy among them ask your leave to exempt them (from

Jihad

) and say, "Leave us (behind), we would be with those who sit (at home)."

105. And say (O Muhammad ) "Do deeds! Allah will see your deeds, and (so will) His Messenger and the believers. And you will be brought back to the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. Then He will inform you of what you used to do."

106. And others await Allah's Decree, whether He will punish them or will forgive them. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

107. And as for those who put up a mosque by way of harming and disbelief, and to disunite the believers, and as an outpost for those who

warred

against Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ) aforetime, they will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good. Allah bears witness that they are certainly liars.

108. Never stand you therein. Verily, the mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety is more worthy that you stand therein (to pray). In it are men who love to clean and to purify themselves. And Allah loves those who make themselves clean and pure (i.e. who clean their private parts with dust [i.e. to be considered as soap) and water from urine and stools, after answering the call of nature].

109. Is it then he, who laid the foundation of his building on piety to Allah and His Good Pleasure, better, or he who laid the foundation of his building on an undetermined brink of a precipice ready to crumble down, so that it crumbled to pieces with him into the Fire of Hell. And Allah guides not the people who are the Zalimun (cruel, violent, proud, polytheist and wrong-doer).

110. The building which they built will never cease to be a cause of hypocrisy and doubt in their hearts, unless their hearts are cut to pieces. (i.e. till they

die

). And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

111. Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they

kill (others) and are killed

. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success .

112. (The believers whose lives Allah has purchased are) those who repent to Allah (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allah's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all what Islam has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islam has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allah (do all that Allah has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allah has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers.

113. It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah's Forgiveness for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they

died

in a state of disbelief).

114. And [Ibrahim's (Abraham)] invoking (of Allah) for his father's forgiveness was only because of a promise he [Ibrahim (Abraham)] had made to him (his father). But when it became clear to him [Ibrahim (Abraham)] that he (his father) is an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him. Verily Ibrahim (Abraham) was Al-Awwah (has fifteen different meanings but the correct one seems to be that he used to invoke Allah with humility, glorify Him and remember Him much), and was forbearing. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi).

115. And Allah will never lead a people astray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them as to what they should avoid. Verily, Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

116. Verily, Allah! Unto Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, He gives life and He causes

death

. And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

117. Allah has forgiven the Prophet (), the Muhajirun (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad ) in the time of distress (Tabuk expedition, etc.), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated (from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness, Most Merciful.

118. And (He did forgive also) the three [who did not join the Tabuk

expedition

(whom the Prophet )] left (i.e. he did not give his judgement in their case, and their case was suspended for Allah's Decision) till for them the earth, vast as it is, was straitened and their ownselves were straitened to them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from Allah, and no refuge but with Him. Then, He accepted their repentance, that they might repent (unto Him). Verily, Allah is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.

NOT chapter 9......


"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4


n.b.
......enmity and hatred for ever


for ever = = for all time, without end.

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 7:30am:


This should be interesting. Can you give an example of a "catholic text" that promotes violence more than chapter 9 of the Koran?

Just for the record, Allah, if you are reading this. I am one of those Mushrikuns that you want Muzlims to murder. So, Phuque you, ya big dumb cosmic bozo.

I believe FD thinks he's proved something.

Just what, I don't know.

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:21pm:

The Old Testament is not the New Testament Gweggy....  The Old Testament is the "Jewish Bible" it contains a Jewish Religious History.  Would you like to try again?

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:21pm:

LOL....  in whose opinion Gweggy?
In what context Gweggy?

moses wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 9:07pm:


Because Genesis, Deuteronomy and Leviticus contain far more commands to torture and kill, silly. You know that. You keep apologizing for it.

Prophet Yeheshua. AKA Jesus the Christ: "I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

LOL Karnal is a wanker, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying for all our sins and conquering death.  Oh dear atheists and Muslims should not quote things they are ignorant of.

Thanks for being honest, Moses. Have you read Matthew 5.19?

You might want to give it a squiz before we examine 5.17 in context.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 4:19pm:


The promotion of violence is a core message of Islam. There are entire chapters of the Koran devoted to it.

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 9:05pm:


freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 7:37am:


Greg would you like to retract any of these claims?

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30^th, 2017 at 12:48am:

Relevance?

Nobody is blown up by men shouting "Matthew 5.19" or "Matthew 5.17".

Allahu akhbaring, on the other hand, is the last thing victims of terrorism hear.

Grendel wrote on Apr 30^th, 2017 at 12:27pm:

Oh Dear....  when will you people stop this nonsense and debate the facts and the world we live in today?

Muslims claim the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) have moved away from God and His word and that their Koran inviolable, unalterable is now the only true word of God.

How can any of your claims re the Bible, be supported then?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2017 at 12:44pm:


Not if it is not an incitement to further violence.

For example, we killed millions of people in WWI and WWII. But documentation of those deaths, and even texts supporting allied involvement in those wars, is not the same thing a call for ongoing slaughter.

Of course. But not as likely to give the "wrong message" as "go out and slaughter the infidel wherever you find them".

I refer you back to Karnal's original statement:

Quote:


I think the more productive role that Jews play in civilised society compared to Muslims, regardless of whether they are a majority or a minority, reflects the differences in the ideologies. Body count alone is not a complete measure than that, despite what the apologists for Islam keep saying, otherwise documenting the holocaust would be a dangerous thing.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2017 at 2:03pm:



Well, Jews have not improved their image with Muslims, though. People just like you - Muslims - are still pontificating about how despicable and dangerous the Jews are - and are cheering on their persecution.
At the same time you are eager to appropriate their victim status all to yourselves and you do this especially loudly after yet another Muslim terrorist attack.

Never mind the actual victims of Islamic ideology, it's the poor Muslims, again and again and again, blowing up people to demonstrate their utter victimhood.

Quote:


Why does everything keep falling back to the spin with you Gandalf?

Quote:


LOL. How about you stick to the things I actually say? Or shall I start tarring you with the terrorist brush?

Quote:


I can't imagine any time in the last 1400 years when I could have supported Islam.

Quote:


You'll have to explain your logic here Gandalf.

Quote:


Where have I even said anything positive about the Jews?

Ok, so in response to your request, FD, to comment on this topic, here is my view.

In Chapter 9 and such other chapters, there are two important distinctions to make:

First, there are Punishment stories where God punishes people for disbelieving, etc. This is not the problem in my view because if you just simply had those verses then people would say: "ah ok, so God will punish them when they die...." kind of in much the same way as Christians believe.

Where the issue becomes a problem in my view is that many verses call 'other people' to kill, slay or fight disbelievers. Obviously, these verses are troubling.

Again, I invite you to think about the following logic: does God deliver punishment and death to people, or do people do it on behalf of God? My view of God (despite being an Atheist) is that God can only determine who dies, not a human being.

The conclusion therefor is that the verses that call the person or reader to take up arms, or to slay the idolators, were written contextually and referring to specific groups of people at the time. Even if it weren't specific and was 'universal', the question then has to become: "why would God provide divine punishment, only then to encourage people to do His 'dirty work for Him'? One then has to question the nature of 'calling to fight' verses and whether or not these are reflective of God's nature or not? Even if you argue that God dictated the verse (which I don't understand why that is the case), then the conclusion must be that it is contextual.
--
Now, I'm willing to concede that many Islamists or persons who find the Quran true believe that God 'can change His mind' because he is God. True, but why would He if God is omniscient? That's why I encourage you to use this logic when debating (if you do) with Muslims.

Even if you want to argue that the entire Quran is the Word of God, then the Medinan verses are contextual for that time and do not have universal application.
--
So, the base logic is this:

1) God is benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient;

2) If God is benevolent, then God would not command one of his creation to slay another of his creation. He would not encourage the physical harm of one of his creation toward another one of his creation. He would not prescribe a lower status to women given that they are also His creation.

3) If God is omnipotent, then He can end anyone's life without justification. If this is the case, then why would He have any need to command one of His creation to murder or harm another one of His creation?

4) If God is omniscient, then why would He prescribe instructions on how to live life that is applicable for all time, if God knew in the 7th Century that in 2006 the iPhone would be invented (and other things) thereby fundamentally transforming social organization. Therefore, God would only prescribe instructions on how to live based on the context and the needs of the time.

freediver wrote on May 29^th, 2017 at 7:07pm:


In the 2 ayat (of your first post) it says: "....you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah..."

In the 3rd ayat it also says: "..... then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah...."

These are examples of where God punishes people. Contrast these statements with:

"...kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush..."

This verse is a 'call' to believers to 'kill' other people.
--
One is God punishing people; the other is a call for one person to kill another person.

So, in one verse it says that God will punish them, then in the next verse it calls for people to kill them. Why the sudden change of mind by God? Such behaviour would only be reminiscent of a God who is evil, and I doubt that any Muslim would believe that God was evil.

freediver wrote on May 29^th, 2017 at 7:07pm:


I'm trying to demonstrate that there is a way to interpret the text of the Quran that is logical and conducive to peace.

freediver wrote on May 29^th, 2017 at 7:07pm:


Most religious people (at least of monotheistic religions) would agree that God is benevolent and just (otherwise you worship Satan). I'm sure many Muslims would agree that 'God can change His mind' and that they don't understand 'God's Will.' In the case of the first, you have to admit that God is arbitrary, which is fundamentally against His nature. In the second case, if it's God's Will, then why is it His Will to change His mind?

Auggie wrote on May 30^th, 2017 at 1:55pm:

Last time I looked God didn't command a woman to wear a headscarf or a Burka.  Modesty was the concern and the choice of clothing cultural.

Auggie wrote on May 30^th, 2017 at 1:55pm:


Well, GM's tried the inclusive, modern line with FD too, Augie.

FD won't have a bar of it.

Gandalf how does chapter 9 fit into your Islamic reform agenda? Is your plan to ignore it and hope it goes away?

Are any of these your own thoughts Karnal, or are you doing an Aug?

How do I deny him the right to hold his religious views?

Perhaps if I could understand what on earth you are talking about, I might be able to answer yours.

Do I deny him his right to his opinions by giving him a popular platform from which to voice them?

Or do you think the right to have an opinion means some kind of protection from criticism of that opinion?

Come back soon, FD.

Karnal I think your blathering about Gandalf's right to his own opinions is symptomatic of the corrupted perspective on rights and freedoms one must adopt in order to become an apologist for Islam.

freediver wrote on Jun 14^th, 2017 at 12:11pm:


Karnal is not talking literally. Of course you don't literally deny me of my beliefs.

Intellectually though, you "deny" us having a civilized discussion about this topic which could potentially be very interesting. You "deny" me the right of being treated as a normal human being with individuality who can be treated as an equal in sensible civilized discussion - as opposed to treating me as part of a mindless hive mind, who can routinely be dismissed with derogatory terms like "typical muslim"

You could go back to posting the ideas of Tariq Ramadan and other reformers you used to admire, and actually not bring up the issue of reform for the sole purpose of ridiculing it. But you don't because you have no desire to go past the inane and thoroughly debased "discussions" on how to checkmate the muslim and ridicule all his merry apologists.

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Again, what corrupted view of freedom could you possibly hold to make such an accusation?

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Can you give an example?

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False dichotomy. If you met a really really nice Nazi who just happened to think Hitler was God's second cousin, would that change anything about Nazism?

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Can you give an example using what I actually say? Or am I not allowed to speak for myself?

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How can you always tell when I am sneering?

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Might as well renounce the lot Gandalf.

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Of course they can, and plenty do. Just not in those places where, thanks to Islam, it is too late for them.

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Surely not. Let's give it a go shall we? Gandalf, is chapter 9 of the Koran the word of God?

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If it was not interesting I would not be here.

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Do you have a problem with people who are not normal?

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Ah, like those hundreds of innocent Jews whose murder you support unquestioningly? How hypocritical of me. There, is that civilised enough for you? I wasn't sneering when I typed it, if that affects your answer.

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You are denying me the right to dismiss you with my own derogatory terms. Apologist.

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Would you deny me the right to change my mind?

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That is a lot of effort to go to to avoid the question. You accuse me of ridiculing your reform efforts, but if your reform requires you to simply pretend chapter 9 does not exist - which is the only conclusion I can draw from your non-answer - what other response do you expect? By self-identifying as a Muslim, you are giving implicit support to everything in the Koran, including chapter 9, and you should take ownership and responsibility for that, and the consequences. When you promote Islam, you promote the view that chapter 9 is God's instruction to Muslims, and you cannot expect me to take you seriously if you deny the implications of that - that Muslims will read it for themselves and find out what it really says, and act in a way that is not hypocritical to their faith. Maybe one day you will read it yourself and make a decision. I'd like to know what you decide.

Grendel wrote on Apr 28^th, 2017 at 5:45pm:


And yet, whenever a so called "Christian" uses the bible to sprout hatred and bigotry they always quote from the OT.

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2017 at 7:34pm:


There can be no reform, certainly not anytime soon. Not until Muslims realise that much of their archaic teachings have no place in modern civilised society.

Auggie wrote on May 30^th, 2017 at 2:46pm:


"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head" (1 Cor. 1:3-6).

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No. It says don't violate oaths of peace you have, unless they do, in which case the slaughter is back on.

In case there is any confusion, Muhammad demonstrated quite clearly that it is open season on pagans, and only the flimsiest of excuses are needed to nullify any treaties with Jews.

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 12:57pm:


By signing peace treaties with them in a position of overwhelming strength?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:25pm:


the only exception?

Again, if its wholesale slaughter, why all the qualifications specifying those who evicted you, attacked you first or supported those who attacked you?

not to mention...

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. 8.61

- thats not a suggestion by the way, thats a command - you must incline towards peace if your enemy does so too - note there's no exceptions...

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 2:01pm:


Taqiyya. Can we put this down to taqiyya?

Questions questions.

AugCaesarustus wrote: Reply #42 - May 29th, 2017 at 4:49pm

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Well allah was all for it.

quran 47.4: So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in allah's cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been allah's Will, he himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (he lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the way of allah, he will never let their deeds be lost."

So there it is plain and simple, the moon god allah could have done it himself but he prefers muslims to do it as a test.

If a muslim is killed while killing others, his deeds will never be forgotten, he goes straight into the islamic brothel in the sky, replete with big breasted houris and little boys with eyes like pearls for an everlasting orgy of divine sex.

islam engenders islamic terrorism, when will muslims and their apologists stop lying about this fact?

qur'an 9.111: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

Fight in the way of allah, slay and be slain in the way of allah.

I reiterate

quran 47.4: So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in allah's cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been allah's Will, he himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (he lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the way of allah, he will never let their deeds be lost."

So there it is plain and simple, the moon god allah could have done it himself but he prefers muslims to do it as a test.

If a muslim is killed while killing others, his deeds will never be forgotten, he goes straight into the islamic brothel in the sky, replete with big breasted houris and little boys with eyes like pearls for an everlasting orgy of divine sex.

islam engenders islamic terrorism, when will muslims and their apologists stop lying about this fact?

once again
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The old moon god allah calling for a bit of slaughter in his name.

When will muslims and their apologists stop lying about the cause of islamic terrorism

Brain-washed.

I'm betting karnal and co understand Doublethink very well and now have developed a form of Doublespeak.

Where's stoning to death, FD?

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 5:54pm:


One reference justifying it as self defense is all thats needed wouldn't you agree? Besides, extra justification is given in other verses. I think you would have us believe that chapter 9 has to be read in isolation, out of context - yes?

Yes FD, the Quran must be understood as a whole - and yes, individual verses are linked to other verses, Chapter 9 being no exception. I understand this is inconvenient for you since you will never read it for yourself and prefer to get spoonfed the "bad" bits taken out of context.

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:


Oh look, FD doesn't listen to what I say again.

reply# 71.

That's it? Islam "does not forbid" Muslims from refraining from being douchebags? That's the 'context' that changes the meaning of chapter 9?

That Muslims are prone to going on violent rampages.