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polite_gandalf

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #90 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:37pm

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 5:54pm:

It is slaughtering the infidel from start to finish Gandalf, with only a few references to justify it.

One reference justifying it as self defense is all thats needed wouldn't you agree? Besides, extra justification is given in other verses. I think you would have us believe that chapter 9 has to be read in isolation, out of context - yes?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #91 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:43pm

Wow. So quoting the entire chapter is now taking it out of context? Do we have to quote the entire Koran or something in case people 'misinterpret' the lengthy and repetitive calls to violence against non-Muslims?

There is nothing in there amongst all that violence mongering saying it must be limited to self defense. Nor does the example of Muhammad suggest self defense is a requirement.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #92 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:53pm Yes FD, the Quran must be understood as a whole - and yes, individual verses are linked to other verses, Chapter 9 being no exception. I understand this is inconvenient for you since you will never read it for yourself and prefer to get spoonfed the "bad" bits taken out of context.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #93 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:00pm So where does it say war can only be in self defense? Was Muhammad acting in self defense when he spent years robbing and murdering Meccan traders? How about when he murdered about 800 unarmed Jewish POWs? What about the raids sent out by Muhammad and his successors to slaughter pagans and destroy pagan temples?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #94 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:04pm freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:00pm: So where does it say war can only be in self defense? Oh look, FD doesn't listen to what I say again. reply# 71.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92377 Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #95 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:55pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:04pm: freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:00pm: So where does it say war can only be in self defense? Oh look, FD doesn't listen to what I say again. reply# 71. Can you quote that?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #96 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:29pm That's it? Islam "does not forbid" Muslims from refraining from being douchebags? That's the 'context' that changes the meaning of chapter 9?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #97 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:41pm

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:29pm:

That's it? Islam "does not forbid" Muslims from refraining from being douchebags? That's the 'context' that changes the meaning of chapter 9?

Oh, I don't know. Moh also says this.

Quote:

[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

What do you think this means, FD?

I'm curious. I'm keen to know what you think.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #98 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:49pm That Muslims are prone to going on violent rampages.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92377 Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #99 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 9:13pm freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:49pm: That Muslims are prone to going on violent rampages. No, really. What does it mean? You have masterful skills in writing, FD. Here's your chance to display your skills in reading.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #100 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 9:17pm That they would be even more violent if they aren't kept in check. Did you read it? Perhaps you should just get to the point Karnal.
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92377 Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #101 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 9:58pm freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 9:17pm: That they would be even more violent if they aren't kept in check. Did you read it? Perhaps you should just get to the point Karnal. No, I'm giving you an opportunity, FD. What do you think it means? It's not a test. Try it.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #102 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 6:51am OK, it appears to be a collective statement of (potential) victimhood, with Jews, Christians and Muslims lumped together. Not sure whether they are potential victims of each other or some other group. Is there a point to this, or am I just helping you read the Koran?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #103 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 2:43pm

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 6:51am:

OK, it appears to be a collective statement of (potential) victimhood, with Jews, Christians and Muslims lumped together. Not sure whether they are potential victims of each other or some other group.

Is there a point to this, or am I just helping you read the Koran?

Try helping yourself. Is there any reason you prefer to obfuscate, complicate and hide things rather than simply acknowledging what they are?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #104 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 7:44am Are you trying to point out that the Koran leaves it to Allah's intervention to bring peace rather than expecting Muslims to take the initiative? It's a bit like you expecting me to make your point for you. But then you are unhappy with the outcome. I think there's something in that for all of us.
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