Quote:If you believe in rights and freedoms, why do you work so hard to deny someone else the freedom to own their beliefs?
Again, what corrupted view of freedom could you possibly hold to make such an accusation?
Quote:You constantly lecture me about being dishonest about my beliefs.
Can you give an example?
Quote:So rather than accepting my assertions about my Islamic beliefs being about love and peace and tolerance, your premise is that Islam can only ever be a rigidly violent and intolerant religion
False dichotomy. If you met a really really nice Nazi who just happened to think Hitler was God's second cousin, would that change anything about Nazism?
Quote:Your sneering quip in post# 50 is a case in point, and is basically saying "how are you going to lie your way out of the "truth" of chapter 9?" (the "truth" being that it is a universal call for muslims to be violent warmongers).
Can you give an example using what I actually say? Or am I not allowed to speak for myself?
Quote:You always sneer at the idea of Islamic reform
How can you always tell when I am sneering?
Quote:I think because the only "reform" you could contenance is one where muslims renounce their prophet and probably most of the text
Might as well renounce the lot Gandalf.
Quote:which you know they cannot do
Of course they can, and plenty do. Just not in those places where, thanks to Islam, it is too late for them.
Quote:I think you describe it "being honest" about the tenets of Islam - the clear insinuation being that muslims already accept your violent/intolerant version of Islam, but are too "dishonest" to acknowledge it.
Surely not. Let's give it a go shall we? Gandalf, is chapter 9 of the Koran the word of God?
Quote:Intellectually though, you "deny" us having a civilized discussion about this topic which could potentially be very interesting.
If it was not interesting I would not be here.
Quote:You "deny" me the right of being treated as a normal human being
Do you have a problem with people who are not normal?
Quote:as opposed to treating me as part of a mindless hive mind
Ah, like those hundreds of innocent Jews whose murder you support unquestioningly? How hypocritical of me. There, is that civilised enough for you? I wasn't sneering when I typed it, if that affects your answer.
Quote:who can routinely be dismissed with derogatory terms like "typical muslim"
You are denying me the right to dismiss you with my own derogatory terms. Apologist.
Quote:You could go back to posting the ideas of Tariq Ramadan and other reformers you used to admire, and actually not bring up the issue of reform for the sole purpose of ridiculing it.
Would you deny me the right to change my mind?
Quote:But you don't because you have no desire to go past the inane and thoroughly debased "discussions" on how to checkmate the muslim and ridicule all his merry apologists.
That is a lot of effort to go to to avoid the question. You accuse me of ridiculing your reform efforts, but if your reform requires you to simply pretend chapter 9 does not exist - which is the only conclusion I can draw from your non-answer - what other response do you expect? By self-identifying as a Muslim, you are giving implicit support to everything in the Koran, including chapter 9, and you should take ownership and responsibility for that, and the consequences. When you promote Islam, you promote the view that chapter 9 is God's instruction to Muslims, and you cannot expect me to take you seriously if you deny the implications of that - that Muslims will read it for themselves and find out what it really says, and act in a way that is not hypocritical to their faith. Maybe one day you will read it yourself and make a decision. I'd like to know what you decide.
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