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chapter 9 (Read 50266 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #180 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 3:50pm
 
moses wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 3:10pm:
Nice bit of falsely attributing the time line of Deuteronomy karnal.

Deuteronomy was written around 1406 BC, at the end of the forty years of wandering endured by the nation of Israel. At the time, the people were camped on the east side of the Jordan River, on the plains of Moab, across from the city of Jericho (Deuteronomy 1:1; 29:1). They were on the verge of entering the land that had been promised centuries earlier to their forefathers (Genesis 12:1, 6–9). The children who had left Egypt were now adults, ready to conquer and settle the Promised Land. Before that could happen, the Lord reiterated through Moses His covenant with them.

source

So the facts are?

Deuteronomy is a 3400 year old account of the rules of capturing the promised land.

There is absolutely nothing that says these things are never ending and against all people.

It is time and people specific, as such has no relevance today 2017. (it refers to the capture of the promised land only)


Oh the hypocrisy!

Deuteronomy is allowed to have a context, but chapter 9 is not.


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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #181 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 7:55pm
 
WHAT DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT ONE BEING A HISTORY...  IE; ABOUT THE PAST...  AND THE OTHER IS THE CURRENT AND FUTURE PLAYBOOK FOR BEHAVIOUR.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #182 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:06pm
 
moses wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 2:44pm:
Who cares about Jews eating pork, or muslim men sitting down to piss and playing with their penis afterwards?


You do, Moses, but that's not the point.

The Jews don't eat pork because their ancient laws forbid them. You know that, and we know you know it.

So why is the Muselman's ancient religious text so much worse? So far, you haven't said.

FD, feel free to join in at this point as well. Strangely enough, you've gone.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #183 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:29pm
 
Karnal is there anything wrong with all the previous answers you have been given to that question?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 3:50pm:
moses wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 3:10pm:
Nice bit of falsely attributing the time line of Deuteronomy karnal.

Deuteronomy was written around 1406 BC, at the end of the forty years of wandering endured by the nation of Israel. At the time, the people were camped on the east side of the Jordan River, on the plains of Moab, across from the city of Jericho (Deuteronomy 1:1; 29:1). They were on the verge of entering the land that had been promised centuries earlier to their forefathers (Genesis 12:1, 6–9). The children who had left Egypt were now adults, ready to conquer and settle the Promised Land. Before that could happen, the Lord reiterated through Moses His covenant with them.

source

So the facts are?

Deuteronomy is a 3400 year old account of the rules of capturing the promised land.

There is absolutely nothing that says these things are never ending and against all people.

It is time and people specific, as such has no relevance today 2017. (it refers to the capture of the promised land only)


Oh the hypocrisy!

Deuteronomy is allowed to have a context, but chapter 9 is not.




Chapter 9 says to wait till after the holy months are over to slaughter then infidel.
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freediver
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #184 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:33pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 3:35pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 11:49am:
Who cares how many stoves they have? It's none of your business. What matters is they aren't raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.


Sorry, FD, are you saying God's chosen people did not rape and pillage their way across the Middle East?

Have you actually read the texts we're discussing here? I doubt Moses has. If he did, he forgot it pretty quick.

But I'm curious. Why are Muslim sub-retardation levels, squatting to piss and bowing down to pray our business? You've been obsessing over these things since 2007.

An answer to this would be great, FD. After all, your argument is that Muslims are inherently evil because of their holy text, but we're still trying to uncover why the Jews aren't evil with a much worse holy text. For some reason, you keep switching back to the old "but Jews aren't raping and pillaging their way across the Middle East" argument, even though their ancient legal text specifically orders them to.

Please explain?


From the opening post:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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Mattyfisk
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #185 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:29pm:
Karnal is there anything wrong with all the previous answers you have been given to that question?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 3:50pm:
moses wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 3:10pm:
Nice bit of falsely attributing the time line of Deuteronomy karnal.

Deuteronomy was written around 1406 BC, at the end of the forty years of wandering endured by the nation of Israel. At the time, the people were camped on the east side of the Jordan River, on the plains of Moab, across from the city of Jericho (Deuteronomy 1:1; 29:1). They were on the verge of entering the land that had been promised centuries earlier to their forefathers (Genesis 12:1, 6–9). The children who had left Egypt were now adults, ready to conquer and settle the Promised Land. Before that could happen, the Lord reiterated through Moses His covenant with them.

source

So the facts are?

Deuteronomy is a 3400 year old account of the rules of capturing the promised land.

There is absolutely nothing that says these things are never ending and against all people.

It is time and people specific, as such has no relevance today 2017. (it refers to the capture of the promised land only)


Oh the hypocrisy!

Deuteronomy is allowed to have a context, but chapter 9 is not.




Chapter 9 says to wait till after the holy months are over to slaughter then infidel.


Why don't you tell me those answers, FD? We'll wind this one up once and for all.

Over to you.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #186 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:24pm
 
Deuteronomy 20:10-15:

Quote:
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


not the slightest indication that this is an order only for one particular time and place.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Grendel
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #187 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:25pm
 
...

Grendel wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 7:55pm:
WHAT DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT ONE BEING A HISTORY...  IE; ABOUT THE PAST...  AND THE OTHER IS THE CURRENT AND FUTURE PLAYBOOK FOR BEHAVIOUR.

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polite_gandalf
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #188 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:30pm
 
Grendel wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:25pm:
WHAT DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT ONE BEING A HISTORY...  IE; ABOUT THE PAST


Because its not stated in the past tense. Because there is not the slightest suggestion that its describing a history or something that is only appropriate for one time and place. Read it again Grendel.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Grendel
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #189 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:30pm
 
Hey Karnal,
How many times must YOU be
...
SHOTDOWN

before you stop posting nonsense.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #190 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 1:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:33pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 3:35pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 11:49am:
Who cares how many stoves they have? It's none of your business. What matters is they aren't raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.


Sorry, FD, are you saying God's chosen people did not rape and pillage their way across the Middle East?

Have you actually read the texts we're discussing here? I doubt Moses has. If he did, he forgot it pretty quick.

But I'm curious. Why are Muslim sub-retardation levels, squatting to piss and bowing down to pray our business? You've been obsessing over these things since 2007.

An answer to this would be great, FD. After all, your argument is that Muslims are inherently evil because of their holy text, but we're still trying to uncover why the Jews aren't evil with a much worse holy text. For some reason, you keep switching back to the old "but Jews aren't raping and pillaging their way across the Middle East" argument, even though their ancient legal text specifically orders them to.

Please explain?


From the opening post:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.



Check out the similarities between your above passage and this one from Deuteronomy, FD:

Quote:
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


Can you tell me the difference?

This is a question.

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moses
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #191 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 3:00pm
 
Quote:
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

&

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


Both of the above have absolutely nothing to do with the present day threat of islamic terrorism.

They are being used as a smokescreen to excuse islamic atrocities being commmitted against the unbeliever according to the maxims set down in the 61% of the qur'an which categorically states allah hates the unbeliever and wants them killed by the highest grade of muslims.

I reiterate:

A few verses from the 61% of the qur'an which urges muslims to slaughter the unbeliever. there is nothing at all about war it's all about how allah hates the unbeliever and wants them murdered.

qur'an 98.6: Those who reject (truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye).They are the worst of creatures

qur'an 8.55: For the vilest of beasts in the sight of allah are those who reject him: They will not believe.

unbelievers are the vilest of people


10.100 : No soul can believe,except by the will of allah, and he will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

7.178: Whomsoever allah guides, he is the guided one, and whomsoever he sends astray, those! They are the losers.

7.179: And surely, we have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.

allah causes disbelief, he specifically created certain men to go to hell (unbelievers)


qur'an 3.151: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers

qur'an 9.29: Fight those who do not believe in allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what allah and his messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

qur'an 9.111: Lo! allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

it is the duty of all muslims to cast terror into the hearts of the unbeliever, muslims are to slay and be slain in the fight against the unbeliever


quran 47.4: So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in allah's cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been allah's Will, he himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (he lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the way of allah, he will never let their deeds be lost."

last but not least allah could have killed the unbeliever but he wants muslims to slaughter them as a test


The above and innumerable others are all about how allah creates unbelievers, how allah hates unbelievers, how allah wants them murdered by muslims.

The islamic terrorist problem of today 2017 is caused and motivated by doctrine which deals specifically with the hatred and slaughter of the unbeliever.

The fundamentalist muslims all tell us exactly that, the fundamentalist imams all preach exactly that.

Yet so called moderate muslims and apologists all try and deny this truth. They lie they snivel they sneak all the while trying to excuse the root cause of islamic terrorism (islamic doctrine).

When are they going to stop the lies and address the majority of the qur'an which causes islamic terrorism?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #192 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 7:22pm
 
moses wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 2:44pm:
Who cares about Jews eating pork, or muslim men sitting down to piss and playing with their penis afterwards?

The major security threat around the globe is islamic terrorism, caused and motivated by the open ended majority of the qur'an, which unequivocally is devoted to the hatred and murder of the unbeliever.

Fundamentalist muslims all categorically state they are following the qur'an to the very letter, the imams in fundamentalist mosques all preach from the qur'an to verify that it is the sacred duty of muslims to slaughter the unbeliever.

All the excuses in the world will never expunge the fact that the majority of the qur'an preaches terrorism hatred and murder of the unbeliever.

When are muslims going to be honest        and contest these abominable teachings?




My dear moses,       1/ moslems don't know how to be honest,          and 2/ no moslem has ever, ever contested Allah's will.

Moslems are 'submitters' [to Allah's will],      not 'contesters'.

ISLAM is the religion of the 'submitters' to Allah's will.




Watch what normal moslems [in Norway] are say,
         while they talk about      practicing their religion,     in Europe.

They are 'submitters'.



-------- >


What Normal Muslims Think - And Europe Fails to Understand
           3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIK8bfeLXSw





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #193 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 7:48pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:30pm:
Grendel wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 12:25pm:
WHAT DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT ONE BEING A HISTORY...  IE; ABOUT THE PAST


Because its not stated in the past tense. Because there is not the slightest suggestion that its describing a history or something that is only appropriate for one time and place. Read it again Grendel.

But the "old Testament" as noted by Karnal, is a book concerning the Jewish Religious History.  That is what it is.  Just like any History Book.  Jews have many religious books they adhere to and learn from.
They also follow many traditions.
I don't consider "going out and killing infidels wherever you may find them" a particularly useful or even sensible behaviour in today's world.  Do you?
I don't think looking for excuses for such behaviour a particularly sensible or sane pastime either. Roll Eyes

The Exodus is a historic event, the things that happened then are historical events.  All those recorded events are historical.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #194 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:17pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 1:47pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 11:33pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 3:35pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2017 at 11:49am:
Who cares how many stoves they have? It's none of your business. What matters is they aren't raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.


Sorry, FD, are you saying God's chosen people did not rape and pillage their way across the Middle East?

Have you actually read the texts we're discussing here? I doubt Moses has. If he did, he forgot it pretty quick.

But I'm curious. Why are Muslim sub-retardation levels, squatting to piss and bowing down to pray our business? You've been obsessing over these things since 2007.

An answer to this would be great, FD. After all, your argument is that Muslims are inherently evil because of their holy text, but we're still trying to uncover why the Jews aren't evil with a much worse holy text. For some reason, you keep switching back to the old "but Jews aren't raping and pillaging their way across the Middle East" argument, even though their ancient legal text specifically orders them to.

Please explain?


From the opening post:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.



Check out the similarities between your above passage and this one from Deuteronomy, FD:

Quote:
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


Can you tell me the difference?

This is a question.



They look quite different to me Karnal. Even the worst bits of the old testament don't come close to Islam. It does not even make sense for the Jews to engage in imperialism the way Islam commands Muslims to. They'd be extinct in a few centuries if they did.
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