Australian Politics Forum - The irony of the anti-Halal movement

ian

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 9451

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #45 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:40pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:02pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

ian wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 11:00pm:

Wheres the money? Difficult question?

You stand charged with sending terrorist funds to."non-Muslim families".

How do.you plead?

My funding is transparent. What about these Muslim organisations? Wheres the money?

It is? Show us, Ian! Roll Eyes

Talk to the ATO.

What have you people got to hide?

according to the ATO and unlike these Muslim organisations, nothing.

Back to top

IP Logged

Mattyfisk

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 92258
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #46 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:56pm

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

Quote:

FD, where you fail, and its one trully spectacular fail, is that in this capitalist, materialist world, you can't comprehend how "profit" is motivation in and of itself.

And this is how you expect Islam's peak representative body in Australia to act?

Quote:

Why does a bank want profit? Why does McDonalds want profit? Why does any for-profit organisation want to profit? For anyone else the answer 'profits for profits sake' is the valid answer, but for muslims, there is automatic suspicion because of your bigoted insistence that it must by default go to terrorists.

I am suspicious of you because you stated for a fact that AFIC did not defraud your school, even though you have no way of knowing, presumably because your fraud-friendly attitude is so common in your community and your school that no-one has bothered to check. I am suspicious because you spent 16 pages arguing that Muslims should not seek to find out where all this money is going or take effective steps to manage the problem. I am suspicious of you because you tried to pass of your schools 'bare minimum' response to government demands as pro-active. I am suspicious of you because you insisted it is actually expected of religious organisations to act on a for-profit basis, and in an extraordinary leap of logic used sexual abuse cover-ups as evidence of this. I am suspicious because you argued AFIC is a for-profit organisation, then went through all sorts of contortions and deflections when I asked what this means.

Is that enough reasons? Or will you only believe me if I say it is because you are a Muslim? You are a victim of my bigotry, not your own words?

Quote:

The simple fact of this matter is we know what the problem is and we know what the motivation was.

And you are not telling?

Quote:

The solution is not to wonder why on earth a profit-gaining entity that exists in this capitalistic world would possibly want to seek profits

Can you explain in what sense AFIC is a for-profit organisation?

Quote:

its to stop them being for-profit in the first place

Would this not require you to figure out how exactly they are now a for-profit organisation?

Sorry, FD, I don’t think that’s enough reasons. It reads as Yadda-style hyperbole to me.

When you list reasons, you see, you need to have actual reasons. It’s sort of a rhetorical rule.

Do you think you could think of one? Maybe you could make something up.

Back to top

IP Logged

greggerypeccary

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 131456
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #47 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 9:00pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:02pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

ian wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 11:00pm:

Wheres the money? Difficult question?

You stand charged with sending terrorist funds to."non-Muslim families".

How do.you plead?

My funding is transparent. What about these Muslim organisations? Wheres the money?

It is? Show us, Ian! Roll Eyes

Talk to the ATO.

Sure.

Full name, and tax file number?

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #48 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 9:04pm

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

I am suspicious of you because you stated for a fact that AFIC did not defraud your school

Nice try to turn your little bigotry on its head. Let me try and explain it for you FD: stating as fact that some sinister and criminal activity is not happening because there is no evidence and no reasonable cause to suspect otherwise - is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. On the other hand, stating as fact that some sinister activity was being carried out by a particular group - based on no evidence whatsoever, but based solely on your prejuedice against that group, is not reasonable or acceptable. In fact we have a term for that - bigotry.

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

am suspicious of you because you insisted it is actually expected of religious organisations to act on a for-profit basis

My insistence that the expected behaviour of organised religious organisations is to run at a profit, is based on the clear evidence that organised religious organisations run for profit. Absurd, I know.

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

I am suspicious because you argued AFIC is a for-profit organisation, then went through all sorts of contortions and deflections when I asked what this means.

Are you unfamiliar what profiteering means FD? Perhaps that explains my contortions. Otherwise the explanation is painfully simple: AFIC, on behalf of Malek Fahd, received government funds and used it to run a profit - against the compliance agreement they signed with the government. Not sure why I would go through contortions to explain that... oh wait, I didn't.

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

And you are not telling?

16 pages plus a bonus spin-off thread of explaining it to you FD.

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

Can you explain in what sense AFIC is a for-profit organisation?

Sure, they run for profit. Difficult to get your head around, I know.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 39526

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #49 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 10:57pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:02pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

ian wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 11:00pm:

Wheres the money? Difficult question?

You stand charged with sending terrorist funds to."non-Muslim families".

How do.you plead?

My funding is transparent. What about these Muslim organisations? Wheres the money?

It is? Show us, Ian! Roll Eyes

Talk to the ATO.

Why? Will they reveal your tax details to me? Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47353
At my desk.

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #50 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm

Quote:

Nice try to turn your little bigotry on its head. Let me try and explain it for you FD: stating as fact that some sinister and criminal activity is not happening because there is no evidence and no reasonable cause to suspect otherwise - is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

evidence: your school was being managed by AFIC.
evidence: AFIC has a proven record of defrauding schools
evidence: the government demanded you sever all ties with AFIC
evidence: your school complied without question
evidecne: you attempted to pass this compliance off as pro-active management of the risk of fraud.

You did not merely argue that AFIC did not act criminally. Rather, you argued that AFIC did not deprive your own children of education funds, as they had been found to do with other schools, in a manner that is being handled in civil courts rather than criminal. You conceded that you had no basis on which to make this claim.

Are you now reversing your opinion yet again and insisting that AFIC did not deny education funds to your own children? Or are you just playing with the definition of criminal in order to avoid the issue?

Would you describe AFIC's behaviour as "not sinister"?

Quote:

My insistence that the expected behaviour of organised religious organisations is to run at a profit, is based on the clear evidence that organised religious organisations run for profit.

Where is this clear evidence Gandalf? The only evidence you have provided is the sexual abuse scandal, which is hardly relevant.

Quote:

Are you unfamiliar what profiteering means FD? Perhaps that explains my contortions. Otherwise the explanation is painfully simple: AFIC, on behalf of Malek Fahd, received government funds and used it to run a profit

You did not merely claim they were 'profiterring' or profiting from the school. You claimed that they are a for-profit organisation, and that this is a natural and expected motive for defrauding a school to the point that it gets shut down. Again, since then we have seen nothing but deflections and pretending to misunderstand the question from you.

Quote:

Sure, they run for profit. Difficult to get your head around, I know.

Funny that. Most religious organisations are not. Are they publicly listed? Can I buy shares in them? Who do the profits get paid out to? Are they also registered as a charity?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #51 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 9:10pm

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm:

You did not merely argue that AFIC did not act criminally. Rather, you argued that AFIC did not deprive your own children of education funds

As I've pointed out several times before, you are conflating two separate episodes (cue your hilarious "ah yes, it is difficult to keep up with them all" reposte). In Malek Fahd's case, the non-compliance is over an actual amount of money that the government has claimed to pinpoint that wasn't used on education. In the case of the Canberra Islamic School, the only issue was over transparency, and no one has accused them of any actual misuse of government funds. So in my case, not only is there no evidence (or suggestion) of money being misused for criminality, there isn't even any evidence (or suggestion) of misuse of money full stop. So in summary - no criminality in either case because there is no evidence in either case, and in the case of CIS, no suggestion (and obviously no evidence) that students were "deprived" of any government funds - because unlike Malek Fahd, the school is not accused of misusing funds.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm:

Where is this clear evidence Gandalf? The only evidence you have provided is the sexual abuse scandal, which is hardly relevant.

Apparently FD hasn't heard of the global 'for-profit' corporate monster known as the catholic church.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm:

Funny that. Most religious organisations are not. Are they publicly listed? Can I buy shares in them? Who do the profits get paid out to? Are they also registered as a charity?

Ah, so apparently you have to be publicly listed and sell shares to fit the definition of "for-profit". Thanks FD, learn something new every day.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47353
At my desk.

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #52 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am

Quote:

As I've pointed out several times before, you are conflating two separate episodes (cue your hilarious "ah yes, it is difficult to keep up with them all" reposte). In Malek Fahd's case, the non-compliance is over an actual amount of money that the government has claimed to pinpoint that wasn't used on education. In the case of the Canberra Islamic School, the only issue was over transparency, and no one has accused them of any actual misuse of government funds. So in my case, not only is there no evidence (or suggestion) of money being misused for criminality, there isn't even any evidence (or suggestion) of misuse of money full stop.

So in the MF case, the government was able to demonstrate that AFIC was siphoning off money, but in the case of your school they were only able to demonstrate that AFIC had the opportunity to do so without being caught. And Muslims such as you respond by insisting they did not do so, despite having no way of knowing this, while also insisting they were being pro-active by severing all official ties with AFIC, and also insisting they better not check to see if AFIC was siphoning off money.

This is what a culture of institutionalised fraud looks like Gandalf. Do you think the Muslim community and the broader Australian community should trust AFIC to handle the halal rorts scam?

Quote:

So in summary - no criminality in either case because there is no evidence in either case

From the same person insisting they should not look to see if there is any criminality. Would it be unreasonable to be suspicious of the Muslim community in light of this behaviour?

Quote:

Apparently FD hasn't heard of the global 'for-profit' corporate monster known as the catholic church.

I have no idea what rules apply to international organisations, but as far as I know AFIC is an entirely Australian organisation and thus compelled to register as a not-for-profit if it wants to take advantage of charitable status. It would be foolish not to, unless they were in fact being run as a business to turn a profit for the owners or shareholders. I would also expect the Muslim community they represent to demand certain standards of behaviour, rather than expecting them behave as a business venture. After all, the Muslim community would be able to destroy AFIC easily enough if it wanted to. Or take it over from within and change it. There is something not right about your expectation of their behaviour, and you are wrong to project this dismal attitude onto the rest of Australian society.

Quote:

Ah, so apparently you have to be publicly listed and sell shares to fit the definition of "for-profit".

A 'for-profit' organisation can also be privately owned. I haver told you this already Gandalf. Hence the question I have asked a dozen times - in what sense are they a for-profit organisation? Your example of the catholic church indicates they are not in fact a for-profit organisation. It is of course entirely possible they are a privately owned business and there is nothing the Muslim community can do to change AFIC from within, but that would indeed be a curious arrangement for the Muslim community to support.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #53 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 10:42am

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am:

So in the MF case, the government was able to demonstrate that AFIC was siphoning off money, but in the case of your school they were only able to demonstrate that AFIC had the opportunity to do so without being caught. And Muslims such as you respond by insisting they did not do so, despite having no way of knowing this

Apparently FD says this without seeing any hint of irony.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am:

From the same person insisting they should not look to see if there is any criminality.

You really never tire of making crap up do you FD?

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am:

After all, the Muslim community would be able to destroy AFIC easily enough if it wanted to. Or take it over from within and change it.

Oh, do you mean like sacking the entire board and having it replaced? Gosh why didn't we think of that?!

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am:

in what sense are they a for-profit organisation?

hmmm let me think for a moment.... oh I know, in the sense that they make profits.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92258 Gender:	Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement Reply #54 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 4:53pm freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm: evidence: AFIC has a proven record of defrauding schools How do you define a proven record, FD? AFIC haven't been charged or convicted of fraud.
Back to top	IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement Reply #55 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 5:10pm Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 4:53pm: freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 8:07pm: evidence: AFIC has a proven record of defrauding schools How do you define a proven record, FD? AFIC haven't been charged or convicted of fraud. This should be good...
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Mattyfisk

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 92258
Gender: male

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #56 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 6:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 7:56am:

in what sense are they a for-profit organisation?

hmmm let me think for a moment.... oh I know, in the sense that they make profits.

Do you think that's the right answer, G? I think FD wants you to say that a for-profit organization is one that funds terrorism.

Micro-economics 101, innit.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47353
At my desk.

Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement
Reply #57 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 6:20pm

Quote:

Oh, do you mean like sacking the entire board and having it replaced? Gosh why didn't we think of that?

Is it possible to do this to AFIC Gandalf? It does not sound like the sort of thing you could do to a for-profit organisation. Wouldn't the owners object? If the Muslim community has the ability to destroy or mould AFIC, why is it beyond them to find out what they did with all that money? Do you think the Muslim community should trust AFIC to manage the halal extortion scams?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement Reply #58 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 6:35pm freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 6:20pm: If the Muslim community has the ability to destroy or mould AFIC, why is it beyond them to find out what they did with all that money? Gosh I believe they did FD.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47353 At my desk.	Re: The irony of the anti-Halal movement Reply #59 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 6:40pm Did they find out what AFIC thought was more important to spend those millions of dollars on than educating Muslim children? Or do you think they were not game to ask? How did they manage to convince the owners of AFIC to put all those profits at risk?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged