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Muslims always tell us what they think (Read 39972 times)
Karnal
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #390 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 9:33pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 9:14pm:
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He’s saying that the laws of Moses were rescinded for all time.


Yes, I know that will be his default position.  I just want to know how he explains away the fact that, according to the OT, Moses came down from the mountain carrying stone tablets into which God himself had carved his words.........His words, not those of the man, Moses.......oh.....the other Moses, if you get my drift.


That doesn’t matter. All that matters is the new covenant, which is one of love.

Except for the Muselman. He Doesn’t count.

Hate them.
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moses
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #391 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:53pm
 
Aussie wrote:

Quote:
Yes, I know that will be his default position.  I just want to know how he explains away the fact that, according to the OT, Moses came down from the mountain carrying stone tablets into which God himself had carved his words.........His words, not those of the man, Moses.......oh.....the other Moses, if you get my drift.



Exodus 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

No one ever saw these two tablets of stone Moses broke them in his anger.

So it happened all over again.

Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these

tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.


So the spirit of God tells Moses to hew two tablets and He (God) will write upon them.

Then in exodus 34.28:

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

It says he (Moses) was with the lord and wrote upon the tablets,

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Moses delivers these tablets which he had physically produced while being filled with the spirit of God.

Yet in 34.1 these tablets are also described as being written by God.

It seems to be poetic licence to describe an event.
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Aussie
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #392 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:02pm
 
It seems, ey.  Did Jesus ever write anything down?
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Brian Ross
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #393 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:17pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:02pm:
It seems, ey.  Did Jesus ever write anything down?


Nope.  The "Gospels" are between 70 and 150 years after he supposedly died, IIRC.   There is no record dating from the time of Jesus, of his existence.   Josephus was writing IIRC about 75 years after the time of Jesus and was reporting second-hand comments by the Priests about his supposed existence.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Yadda
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #394 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:19pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:02pm:

It seems, ey.  Did Jesus ever write anything down?




Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:17pm:

Nope.


The "Gospels" are between 70 and 150 years after he supposedly died, IIRC.


There is no record dating from the time of Jesus, of his existence.   Josephus was writing IIRC about 75 years after the time of Jesus and was reporting second-hand comments by the Priests about his supposed existence.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




No, you are in error Brian.

Allah himself states, within the inerrant Koran, that HE, Allah, gave the Gospel to Jesus.



"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."
Koran 5.46
Koran 5.110

"Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel;..."
Koran 57.27



See!

The Gospel of Jesus, was authored by Allah!

So the Gospel of Jesus, was created by Allah.



And remember Brian,       ....this is stated within the 'inerrant' Koran,      .....so it must be true!
/sarc off


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #395 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:35pm
 
Thats nice, Yadda.  Are you a Muslim?  I'm not.  I just look at the established historical record.  It works for me.    Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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John Smith
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #396 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:38pm
 
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

suddenly Yadda believes what's in the Koran?  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


it must be a friggen miracle.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #397 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:41pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:38pm:
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

suddenly Yadda believes what's in the Koran?  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


it must be a friggen miracle.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


About time. He gave up believing what was in the Bible years ago.

Love thine enemy, no?

Sorry - hate them.
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Frank
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #398 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:04pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:41pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:38pm:
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

suddenly Yadda believes what's in the Koran?  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


it must be a friggen miracle.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


About time. He gave up believing what was in the Bible years ago.

Love thine enemy, no?

Sorry - hate them.



Don't all rush to be daft - Yadda was clearly sarcastic. See /sarc off at the end of his post.

Just because Brian rolls his eyes you don't all have to rush to make fools of yourselves, mm'kay?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #399 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 9:43am
 
Frank wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:04pm:
Karnal wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:41pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:38pm:
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

suddenly Yadda believes what's in the Koran?  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


it must be a friggen miracle.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


About time. He gave up believing what was in the Bible years ago.

Love thine enemy, no?

Sorry - hate them.



Don't all rush to be daft - Yadda was clearly sarcastic. See /sarc off at the end of his post.





You're right, Frank, I didn't notice that.

Yadda loves the Muselman as per his prophet's decree. Love thine enemy, no?
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moses
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #400 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:29pm
 
For somebody that didn't exist he certainly had a lot of ancient historians prepared to say he did.

Funny that


Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.

Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

In this account, Tacitus confirms several historical elements of the Biblical narrative: Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus: He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.

Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understanding: Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

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moses
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #401 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:34pm
 
from last post

This early description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this account, we know Jesus had an immediate impact on His followers: They were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

From this account we can add to our description of Jesus: He taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.

Celsus (175AD)
This is the last hostile, non-Christian account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite antagonistic to the claims of the Gospels, but in his criticism he unknowingly affirmed and reinforced the Biblical authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

Celsus admits Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea Jesus was the illegitimate son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm several important claims: Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God

Josephus (37-101AD)
In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:

Continued next post
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moses
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #402 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:35pm
 
From last post

“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person).

Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.

source
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Brian Ross
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #403 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:37pm
 
*SIGH* all indirect accounts, Moses.  There are no direct accounts of Jesus' doings.   Roll Eyes

All your "accounts" were written well after the supposed death of Jesus.  None were eyewitness accounts.

Show us a direct, historical account of Jesus and I might believe he existed.

Show us a direct, historical account of Mohammed and I might believe he existed.

Ditto for Buddha, etc. other Religious/Philosophical founders.   Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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moses
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Re: Muslims always tell us what they think
Reply #404 - Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:51pm
 
Brian Ross wrote: Quote:
*SIGH* all indirect accounts, Moses.  There are no direct accounts of Jesus' doings.   Roll Eyes

All your "accounts" were written well after the supposed death of Jesus.  None were eyewitness accounts.

Show us a direct, historical account of Jesus and I might believe he existed.

Show us a direct, historical account of Mohammed and I might believe he existed.

Ditto for Buddha, etc. other Religious/Philosophical founders


Whether you believe or not is simply irrelevant.

People who want to believe will, that's it in a nutshell.

As for me, I can't prove anything one way or the other.

All I know is that reputable historians were prepared to say He did exist.

So ancient historians say yes, His followers say yes, His religion says yes, seems a fair indication that yes is the answer.

Eer just as an aside you believe muslims, you believe false Christians who commit atrocities, yet you don't believe early historians.

You have problems yes?
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