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Who is the real historical jesus ? (Read 38294 times)
BigOl64
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #90 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:41pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:16pm:
[
Your God fearing interpretation of truth is total bullsh1t. Truth is truth, you don't need a holy book or a Phd to see the sky is blue.



If this fkked up country got rid of sect 116 in the constitution, is would get rid of this fkked up delusion as a right and doing so every single religious cretin could be dealt with as such.

No right to be a backward inbred religious fkkwit, fine. No-one care why you think kiddie rape is acceptable



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Yadda
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #91 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 7:06pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:16pm:
Yadda wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 3:21pm:
Amadd wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 1:13am:
issuevoter wrote on Aug 13th, 2016 at 11:14pm:
I have been watching a documentary on SBS about the origins of archaeology Among the many relics from the life of Jesus is, supposedly, one of the nails from the Crucifixion. It is a heavy four sided piece like a railroad spike. Its provenance is said to come down from the Emperor Constantine. It creates a bit of a puzzle, as does the whole record of Christ's execution.

All the depictions I have seen show Christ nailed through the hands and feet. It is widely believed that the weight of the body could not be supported in that way. The more common practice was to bind the limbs to the cross or a single stake. Iron was expensive, and I wonder if the Romans would have wasted it on a Jew who thought he was on intimate terms with God.



It's logical thinking that eventually uncovers the truth.







If we persue truth then we may eventually discover/understand what truth is, and come to understand its importance.

Likewise, if we seek God, then we may eventually come an understanding, of what/who God is.




Deuteronomy 4:29
....if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Q.
How does a man, that is 'bound' within a physical body, approach the task of seeking God ?

Is God hiding under my bed ?

Or, is God hiding in the top of my apple tree ?

Those are very deep and perplexing questions.             Shocked




John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1435998745/0#0



Your God fearing interpretation of truth is total bullsh1t.

Truth is truth, you don't need a holy book or a Phd to see the sky is blue.




Ah.      ....we only need open our eyes, to be able to see what is true.

The sky is blue.

Yes, it is!

Ah, i see how this truth and reality thing works now !


Smiley

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #92 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 7:13pm
 


Our collective waking, human perception of the reality, which we collectively experience is [mostly] reliable.

Its gotta be !

Right ?




Click the link.....

After the image loads, move your mouse from the centre of the checkered area, to the edge of the screen....

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121007.html




AND ALWAYS REMEMBER GUYS!!!!

......THE SKY IS BLUE !


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Raven
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #93 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm
 
The problem Yadda is that your god doesn't exist. Certainly not in the form you think he takes.

You believe your god is loving, just and perfect.

He gives bone cancer to children, allowing them to suffer in agony until they die, that's very loving.

A good man who loves and cares for his family, who helps others without needing to be asked is bound for hell because he does not believe in god. A child rapist and murderer who accepts Jesus in his heart suffers no punishment and is rewarded with paradise for eternity. True justice indeed.

This is not how a perfect being behaves. Raven submits that a perfect being is incapable of being anything other than perfect, in thought or action. And yet he created us the most imperfect of beings.

*knock knock*

"Go away god"

"Let me in"

"Why?"

"So I can save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in"

This god gave us faults and then punishes us for eternity for the faults he gave us.

If god exists he is not loving, just nor perfect.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Amadd
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #94 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:37am
 
Quote:
AND ALWAYS REMEMBER GUYS!!!!

......THE SKY IS BLUE !



..And always remember Yadda, that you couldn't explain "Why" it appears blue (as does an unpolluted ocean), without the help of science.

Can you explain why the sky appears blue?
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #95 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:46am
 
Amadd wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:37am:
Quote:
AND ALWAYS REMEMBER GUYS!!!!

......THE SKY IS BLUE !



..And always remember Yadda, that you couldn't explain "Why" it appears blue (as does an unpolluted ocean), without the help of science.

Can you explain why the sky appears blue?


Because god of course
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #96 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:06pm
 
Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:
The problem Yadda is that your god doesn't exist. Certainly not in the form you think he takes.



Not true.



Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

You believe your god is loving, just and perfect.



Correct and true.




Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

He gives bone cancer to children, allowing them to suffer in agony until they die, that's very loving.



Not true.

God gave us the freedom to make moral choices.

When we and our parents make poor moral choices, there are always consequences.

Deuteronomy 7:12
Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
13  And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
14  Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
15  And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.



'poor moral choices' ?

e.g.
Some have demonstrated that there is a correlation, between women having abortions, and 1/ later 'suffering' miscarriage ['spontaneous' abortion, being unable to carry a pregnancy to term], and, 2/ between, having earlier abortions, and 'suffering' subsequent 'infertility'.

I haven't got a link to hand, but do some googling.


Dictionary;
correlation = =
1 a mutual relationship or connection.      the process of correlating two or more things.
2 interdependence of variable quantities.






Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

A good man who loves and cares for his family, who helps others without needing to be asked is bound for hell because he does not believe in god. A child rapist and murderer who accepts Jesus in his heart suffers no punishment and is rewarded with paradise for eternity.



Not true.




Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

This is not how a perfect being behaves.



Correct and true.




Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

This god gave us faults and then punishes us for eternity for the faults he gave us.



Not true.

God gave us the freedom to make moral choices.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Auggie
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #97 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:24pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:06pm:
Not true.

God gave us the freedom to make moral choices.


Yes, I agree with that.
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #98 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:28pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:41pm:
issuevoter wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:16pm:
[
Your God fearing interpretation of truth is total bullsh1t. Truth is truth, you don't need a holy book or a Phd to see the sky is blue.



If this fkked up country got rid of sect 116 in the constitution, is would get rid of this fkked up delusion as a right and doing so every single religious cretin could be dealt with as such.

No right to be a backward inbred religious fkkwit, fine. No-one care why you think kiddie rape is acceptable





116 was designed to restrict the power of the Commonwealth. Each State may make laws respecting religion; but not the centralized authority.
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #99 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm
 
Interesting conversation.

My two cents I believe in God because nothing else can explain the universe and all that is within it or the Earth and all that is within that.

I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.

Now if Jesus had come down to Earth and had found milk and honey with the Pharisees (priests) and scribes (theologians) I would probably have a hard time believing he was the son of God.

But it was the Jewish priests that had Jesus crucified, sure the romans carried out the actual act but it was at the behest of the Priests and scribes of the time, the men who were in charge of a religion, that’s why Pilot washed his hands for it was not by his doing that Jesus would be crucified.

Jesus himself said that his words would never be lost and would be with us to the end of times, in this day and age all we have to go by are the gospels and any spiritual experiences we may have had with loved ones.

It’s left to every man and woman to decide by faith that God and Jesus are what they are.

...

http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/13.htm
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Yadda
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #100 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 7:49pm
 
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
Interesting conversation.

.........

Now if Jesus had come down to Earth and had found milk and honey with the Pharisees (priests) and scribes (theologians) I would probably have a hard time believing he was the son of God.

But it was the Jewish priests that had Jesus crucified, sure the romans carried out the actual act but it was at the behest of the Priests and scribes of the time, the men who were in charge of a religion, that’s why Pilot washed his hands for it was not by his doing that Jesus would be crucified.






John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


Psalms 73:1
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #101 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm
 
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.


Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did. The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.

Second, if you claim that Jesus did what he did because he was divine, then in my opinion, this diminishes his achievements as a human being, because: "... yeah, but he's God..." Think of a tightrope walker who has a net under him; that's what it's like. What made Jesus incredible was precisely the fact that HE WAS HUMAN and did what he did. That's true power. When he entered into Jerusalem on a donkey proclaiming that he was the King of the Jews, he knew exactly where he was headed - to his torture, crucifixion, and ultimately death. He made the conscious choice to act in a manner that led to end. Human beings don't behave or act like that. 
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #102 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:25pm
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.


Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did. The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.

Second, if you claim that Jesus did what he did because he was divine, then in my opinion, this diminishes his achievements as a human being, because: "... yeah, but he's God..." Think of a tightrope walker who has a net under him; that's what it's like. What made Jesus incredible was precisely the fact that HE WAS HUMAN and did what he did. That's true power. When he entered into Jerusalem on a donkey proclaiming that he was the King of the Jews, he knew exactly where he was headed - to his torture, crucifixion, and ultimately death. He made the conscious choice to act in a manner that led to end. Human beings don't behave or act like that. 


I like your general perspective, however, to respect him, I would require more knowledge of the man than what is actually in the record.
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #103 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:32pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:25pm:
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.


Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did. The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.

Second, if you claim that Jesus did what he did because he was divine, then in my opinion, this diminishes his achievements as a human being, because: "... yeah, but he's God..." Think of a tightrope walker who has a net under him; that's what it's like. What made Jesus incredible was precisely the fact that HE WAS HUMAN and did what he did. That's true power. When he entered into Jerusalem on a donkey proclaiming that he was the King of the Jews, he knew exactly where he was headed - to his torture, crucifixion, and ultimately death. He made the conscious choice to act in a manner that led to end. Human beings don't behave or act like that. 


I like your general perspective, however, to respect him, I would require more knowledge of the man than what is actually in the record.


I appreciate your point of view. The two polarizing themes concerning Jesus are theological and historical perspectives. Most scholars agree that Jesus existed (that he was a historical figure). Therefore, in light of this, we must use whatever sources we can to extract a 'historical' account of Jesus. If you look at what he did and what he said, these are indications of historical events which are plausible  at the time.

Even if one argued that he wasn't a 'historical figure', the symbolism is incredibly powerful. Don't forget that Jesus was born with nothing, he gained nothing and he died with nothing (materialistically). He could've started a rebellion, or became super rich from his teachings, but he shunned all of those things and died as a 'criminal.' The selflessness in the face of power is so incredible that it's almost not human.
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Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #104 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 10:06pm
 
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.



Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did.

The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.




Some people are unable to believe that God, the creator, could [or would] manifest himself, 'in the flesh', as a man.       [but if you believe scripture, he did once before.    see Genesis 18]


Regarding the veracity of the New Testament text, we must individually come to either accept, or reject, what the New Testament says, as being authentic and true.




Regarding the veracity of any information which is presented to us Moses law gives this advice.....


Deuteronomy 19:15
.....at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.



Regarding the testimony of multiple witnesses.....

--------- >

Matthew 17:1
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.





n.b.
YOU may choose to not accept the record of those witnesses.

But, the record and account of those multiple witnesses exists.



On Jesus divinity.....

--------- >

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Jesus said,

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.


John 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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